Just In: Vinton Building collapsing?

[checkraisej]

Sixty-Seven percent of the buildings of Downtown Detroit are made out of bricks, pewbic tiles, sandstones, marbles and assorted rocks. Maintain these structures takes time and lots of money. If those pieces of tiles fall unexpectally to a person could mean lawsuit galore. The best you all can do when walking Downtown Detroit is watch for falling bricks.

How did you arrive at sixty Seven percent? Remember, SHOW YOUR WORK! Otherwise your argument is NON-SEQUITOR!

[East Detroit]

How much is the Vinton Bldg worth now? Maybe I could rehab it.

[Bearinabox]

How did you arrive at sixty Seven percent? Remember, SHOW YOUR WORK! Otherwise your argument is NON-SEQUITOR!

I see what you did there.

[1KielsonDrive]

Hardly serious at all. Probably some water infiltration behind that pushed the outer layer of bricks off. Most cities building owners are constantly inspecting facades for this kind of thing. Don't know about Detroit though

Yes, exactly. I've inspected dozens of buildings with this problem. It can be very serious but it's usually just a facade issue in most cases. Costly regardless. It presents little problem to the integrity of the structure but great problems to anything in its path if it comes down, as in the example I told above.

[Gannon]

How did you arrive at sixty Seven percent? Remember, SHOW YOUR WORK! Otherwise your argument is NON-SEQUITOR!

My bet is he rounded up from 66.6%.

[LodgeDodger]

Sixty-Seven percent of the buildings of Downtown Detroit are made out of bricks, pewbic tiles, sandstones, marbles and assorted rocks. Maintain these structures takes time and lots of money. If those pieces of tiles fall unexpectally to a person could mean lawsuit galore. The best you all can do when walking Downtown Detroit is watch for falling bricks.

Danny, that's Pewabic tile.

[ghettopalmetto]

I have a hard time believing that hydrostatic pressure caused these bricks to fall out of the veneer. For one, hydrostatic pressure doesn't leave neat little rectangles. In other words, why did the brick fail where it did, and not all the way to the corner [[or beyond)? Why not anywhere else at this elevation?

Second, water is going to take the easiest route it can find. If the flashing is poorly detailed, the water will infiltrate into the interior before it can build up enough hydrostatic pressure in the wall cavity to force the outer veneer onto the street.

The answer is in the edge condition, to the left and the right of the area of fallen brick.

[wolverine]

My experience in working with masonry repair in older buildings is very limited, but I've seen very few with masonry ties in older buildings. Usually a steel angle at every floorplate or the occasional plate wedged between mortar joints connected to terra cotta infill block were all that were used.

I should have been more specific when I said "pushed" the bricks out. I don't believe a build up in moisture in the cavity caused this, rather water/ice broke apart the mortar joints and the whole section fell out. Note how rectangular the damage section is because of the masonry design. They have a stack that borders the windows as well as another at the corner. There's hardly anything anchoring pilaster side to side. One crack across the top and it's just gravity from there.

[ghettopalmetto]

Well, somebody better make a law outlawing brick construction so no one gets hurt, you know? Get rid of any and all brick veneers.

And while we're at it, let's demolish the Vinton Building as a precaution. You can't be too careful with this kind of thing.

[Wesley Mouch]

Hardly serious at all. Probably some water infiltration behind that pushed the outer layer of bricks off. Most cities building owners are constantly inspecting facades for this kind of thing. Don't know about Detroit though

Detroit does have an ordinance requiring a safety inspection of 'high rise' buildings [[over about six storys I think). Required every five years, I believe. It is enforced by Buildings and Safety Engineering Dept.

[thnk2mch]

Detroit does have an ordinance requiring a safety inspection of 'high rise' buildings [[over about six storys I think). Required every five years, I believe. It is enforced by Buildings and Safety Engineering Dept.

Don't tell Matty...

[wolverine]

Well, somebody better make a law outlawing brick construction so no one gets hurt, you know? Get rid of any and all brick veneers.

And while we're at it, let's demolish the Vinton Building as a precaution. You can't be too careful with this kind of thing.

I don't know man, the Guardian has a whole lot of brick. I bet that one should be first to go.

Detroit does have an ordinance requiring a safety inspection of 'high rise' buildings [[over about six storys I think). Required every five years, I believe. It is enforced by Buildings and Safety Engineering Dept.

Wow, that must be enforced like...never

[Fnemecek]

Or it could be that whomever did the masonry work didn't replace a bad shelf angle, and when it failed, boom. If that's the case, you have to wonder about the state of the shelf angle in the rest of the building.

I talked w/ some folks who worked on the 2006/07 renovation of the building. Their opinion, is that water infiltration was unlikely.

It's more likely that this was caused by the masonry anchors, which were not replaced. The workers were only contracted to repair/ replace certain problem areas of the facade. That involved removing and replacing problem bricks, but reusing the anchors that ultimately hold those bricks in place.

Those anchors appear to have failed on a rather hot day. The heat normally causes a certain amount of expansion and contraction. Normally, the anchors are strong enough to endure that stress. However, when the anchors are rusted to a certain point, they are no longer able to do so.

[ghettopalmetto]

Fnemecek, I think you're inadvertently contradicted yourself. Masonry anchors tend not to rust in the absence of water.

There is *always* a potential for moisture intrusion through brick masonry. Brick, like concrete and stone, is a porous material and will allow moisture to pass. Every time it rains, you bet your ass that brick will absorb moisture. The rate of moisture penetration depends on the porosity of the material. It's impossible to keep moisture from entering the brick veneer. Building codes address this by requiring flashing and weepholes to guide the moisture out of the wall system. It's important to keep weepholes open and maintain the flashing, which needs to be replaced every 30 years or so, depending on the material used and its condition.

Older buildings can be problematic if regular inspection and maintenance isn't conducted, because the masonry anchors tend to be of a type that can oxidize, lose cross-sectional area, and fracture over time when exposed to the naturally-occurring moisture that is expected in the wall system. Modern masonry anchors tend to be manufactured from stainless steel, or are galvanized, in order to prevent such a problem from occurring. Properly installed, masonry anchors allow for movement of the veneer system to accommodate fluctuations in temperature, as well as differential deflection between the veneer and the structural system of the building.

On top of that, if moisture is trapped in the brick without a means of egress, freeze-thaw cycles are going to wreak havoc, causing fractures in the mortar joints, and possibly the masonry units themselves, which allows still more moisture to enter.

Mortar will also deteriorate over time with exposure to ambient conditions until it becomes little more than sand, so periodic repointing of the mortar joints needs to be conducted in order to prevent loosening falling of the masonry units.

[Interpolation]

Let"s do something!

[1KielsonDrive]

I don't know man, the Guardian has a whole lot of brick. I bet that one should be first to go.



Wow, that must be enforced like...never

That's exactly what I was thinking. I didn't say it for fear of being labeled 'negative'. Not that I usually worry about it.

[kathy2trips]

Let"s do something!

Word should get out quickly to as many people as possible. Facebook [[which I don't do) and Twitter would be appropriate for this. I think we should include a link to this thread, as the photos tell it all. Here are a few Twitter addresses I know off-hand:

National Trust for Historic Preservation -@PresNation
National Park Service @NatlParkService
Michigan State Historic Preservation Office - @ MISHPO

Preservation Wayne isn't on Twitter, ISFAIK, but if they don't know about this, they should. It IS on the National Register of Historic Places [[1983), so it would have a better chance of getting a grant, as many of them have stipulations that require Register status.

[GOAT]

A hyperbolic headline if I ever saw one. A few bricks come off of a facade and
says the Vinton might be collapsing.

*shaking my head*

LD, luckily Danny didn't type pubic ; )

[buildingsofdetroit]

A hyperbolic headline if I ever saw one. A few bricks come off of a facade and
says the Vinton might be collapsing.

*shaking my head*

LD, luckily Danny didn't type pubic ; )

Certainly got your attention, though, didn't it?

[GOAT]

Whoopity-fucking-doo! Of course it got my attention as I wold't want to see that building falling down. But it is stupid to even make the thread. How about bricks falling from the Vinton? Then we all could see what the hubub is all about; not being mislead but some stupid threadline grab.

[jams]

Scaffolding went up this afternoon

[p1acebo]

Scaffolding went up this afternoon

Yup, I passed by the building today and it went all around the building with a few guys with hard hats.

[Gsgeorge]

Yes, talked to the foreman, he said the bricks will be replaced and the others checked out by the end of the weekend!

[Motown Madman]

WHAT?
Aren't they in the process of RENOVATING the building?

[Danny]

How did you arrive at sixty Seven percent? Remember, SHOW YOUR WORK! Otherwise your argument is NON-SEQUITOR!

I observe all the structures in Downtown Detroit and compute into my private files. Then I give those files to my Street Prophets and they put it into their XYZ files. It follows. I do my research.