An interesting question

[GOAT]

from an outsider's view YOU SHOULD BLAME AMERICA FIRST! It is
YOUR fucking debt! You elect these fools to piss your money away, you even have re-call legislation for cripes sake! Use it!!

As for taxation, the USA is hardly taxed for the amount of money the country spends. The USa would do well to raise rates further and actually make dents in the burden of the debt that will eventually come due. The only safe guards so far is the the net worth of the USA. Once that starts to crumble things are not going to be pretty.

[ghettopalmetto]

from an outsider's view YOU SHOULD BLAME AMERICA FIRST! It is
YOUR fucking debt! You elect these fools to piss your money away, you even have re-call legislation for cripes sake! Use it!!

As for taxation, the USA is hardly taxed for the amount of money the country spends. The USa would do well to raise rates further and actually make dents in the burden of the debt that will eventually come due. The only safe guards so far is the the net worth of the USA. Once that starts to crumble things are not going to be pretty.

From an American's point of view, I vote for people to spend public money wisely. And you might want to look into that "recall legislation" thing--it doesn't exist.

I'm sorry our leaders in this nation do not, like the Canadians, believe in things like regulations, stability in the financial system, or establishing a competent level of taxation. But that's all water under the bridge at the moment, isn't it?

But hey, glad to know that for some reason, a Canadian thinks the current U.S. debt is the single-most important issue ever and precludes doing anything other than sitting and bitching about it on an internet forum.

[GOAT]

Sorry, I had thought the USA had re-call legislation. Does it not exist in some level9s) of gov'ts though?
I would like to point out that we too have our issues in spending wisely. Just not to the level that the USA has spent. We sure do piss and moan a lot about our taxes but our taxes are higher than the USA. I just find it odd that most Americans bitch about taxes where most people in the industrialized world would love to have your taxation levels.

[ghettopalmetto]

Sorry, I had thought the USA had re-call legislation. Does it not exist in some level9s) of gov'ts though?
I would like to point out that we too have our issues in spending wisely. Just not to the level that the USA has spent. We sure do piss and moan a lot about our taxes but our taxes are higher than the USA. I just find it odd that most Americans bitch about taxes where most people in the industrialized world would love to have your taxation levels.

I agree wholeheartedly that our taxes, on the whole, are too low. But until the economy--and employment--recovers, it's not the time to raise taxes or attempt to balance the budget. Granted, if I voted for the buffoons that the anti-tax crowds vote for, I wouldn't expect competent service out of my government anyway. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if you ask me.

On the other hand, I see taxes as an investment in our country. Debt isn't necessarily bad, but some people would have you believe that any debt is always bad. Those are the same people who don't go to college if it means taking out loans, or buy a new suit to go on an interview for a better job. Of course, I'm sure they all pay ca$h money for their homes and cars and big screen televisions.

[firstandten]

FirstandTen, Nice loaded question by negating certain things done by the republicans. I'm glad to see you haven't gone so far as to start calling all conservatives stupid names .

A bit tongue in cheek but what about that $300 return people received? [[I thought it was dumb)?

How about Bush Sr [[who I thought was a good Prez until the recession ended his time) raising taxes because he had to? He didn't shirk his duty and it cost him his election.

Actually, it wasn't a loaded question but repubs Presidents up until the time of Reagan did a number of things to help the common man. Hell, Ike was probably to the left of Clinton.

The party's world view since Reagan has been "what's good for corporate america is good for the common man" and that has been reflected in the type of legislation we have seen . Now someone did come up with 1 example, that exception does nothing but prove the rule.

The other point I was trying to make that unless you are in the income bracket where being a Repub makes economic sense why are some of you so in love with their world view and policies. It flies in the face of enlightened self-interest.

[rb336]

Republicans have essentially been on the downslide to corporate shills since Teddy Roosevelt got drummed out. Ike was definitely to the left of Clinton AND Obama. I have often mentioned that I really think of him as the last really centrist prez, although he did desecrate the PoA

[Retroit]

Conversely, I find it ironic that many Democrats don't seem to realize that most federal programs which are ostensibly claimed to be beneficial to the middle class are actually detrimental. All of the programs that are supposed to help us are actually a burden upon us because WE are the ones that will have to pay for them. So yes, I am quite proud of the Republicans who have not come to my rescue by providing me a hand-out, ehem..."initiative". I don't need, and I don't want, your help. I am an American, and real Americans take care of themselves, and don't impose themselves on others.

[ghettopalmetto]

Conversely, I find it ironic that many Democrats don't seem to realize that most federal programs which are ostensibly claimed to be beneficial to the middle class are actually detrimental. All of the programs that are supposed to help us are actually a burden upon us because WE are the ones that will have to pay for them. So yes, I am quite proud of the Republicans who have not come to my rescue by providing me a hand-out, ehem..."initiative". I don't need, and I don't want, your help. I am an American, and real Americans take care of themselves, and don't impose themselves on others.

Terrific. We'll be sending you a bill for your public education, use of roadways, police and fire protection, defense by our armed forces, the internet, et cetera, et cetera.

[Retroit]

Terrific. We'll be sending you a bill for your public education, use of roadways, police and fire protection, defense by our armed forces, the internet, et cetera, et cetera.

Hey, didn't Republicans vote for all those things? I thought only Republicans were supposed to be providing examples.

[firstandten]

Conversely, I find it ironic that many Democrats don't seem to realize that most federal programs which are ostensibly claimed to be beneficial to the middle class are actually detrimental. All of the programs that are supposed to help us are actually a burden upon us because WE are the ones that will have to pay for them. So yes, I am quite proud of the Republicans who have not come to my rescue by providing me a hand-out, ehem..."initiative". I don't need, and I don't want, your help. I am an American, and real Americans take care of themselves, and don't impose themselves on others.

Well ! If the Republicans aren't coming to your rescue, they're coming to somebodies. You shouldn't be so proud that your not getting a "hand-out" because your Republican buddies are sure taking care of each other thru bail-outs and pork projects and you name it.

You make it sound like a badge of honor that your not getting a hand-out because Americans don't do that. Please send that memo to your Republican friends I think they missed that one.

[oladub]

The question is : Name one republican intiative since Reagan that was designed to help Joe and Jane Blow [[common middle class people)

We aren't talking bi-partisan or a trickle-down effect but something that was expressively designed to help common-folk by republicans

Based on this criteria, one would be hard pressed to come up with something.

One initiative? How about HR1207 which would have audited the Federal Reserve? It was supported by every Republican House member and a fair percentage of Democrat representatives. Unfortunaltely, it's Senate version was squashed by Democrats, including the President, and most Senate Republicans alike who preferred the status quo to transparancy.

[firstandten]

One initiative? How about HR1207 which would have audited the Federal Reserve? It was supported by every Republican House member and a fair percentage of Democrat representatives. Unfortunaltely, it's Senate version was squashed by Democrats, including the President, and most Senate Republicans alike who preferred the status quo to transparancy.

How would that initiative have helped common folk either with money in the pocket or benefits ?

I think I know what you're getting at but how would that have directly affected the people ?

[oladub]

How would that initiative have helped common folk either with money in the pocket or benefits ?

I think I know what you're getting at but how would that have directly affected the people ?

I look at the Bush Wall Street Bailout as perhaps the greatest heist in history - and it was a bi-partisan effort. Money was delivered to mega banks. It had to come from somewhere. Poor people don't have money. That leaves the middle class as the main contributors to Wall Street Bankers.

On Christmas Eve, President Obama signed an executive order that would have made Bush blush. President Obama presented a most wonderful present to those same mega banks. He signed an executive order forcing Fannie, and I think Freddie, to purchase bank loan bundles at their full face value through 2012. This gave these banks much more than the bundles were worth and stuck taxpayers, read that mostly middle class taxpayers, with the difference. Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and the rest of these banks own the Federal Reserve. It would be interesting to see what else the Federal Reserve is up to. Which countries is it secretly sending money to for instance?

Middle class people want to have money in their pocket but it makes little difference if the initiative is to tax them and return their money as an inititiative or whether the initiative is simply to allow them to keep it. I prefer the latter as it saves on administrative costs.

[rb336]

One initiative? How about HR1207 which would have audited the Federal Reserve?

that would not have ANY impact at all on the average american. The Fed is ALREADY subject to audit, anyway, although some exemptions should be removed

[Retroit]

Well ! If the Republicans aren't coming to your rescue, they're coming to somebodies. You shouldn't be so proud that your not getting a "hand-out" because your Republican buddies are sure taking care of each other thru bail-outs and pork projects and you name it.

You make it sound like a badge of honor that your not getting a hand-out because Americans don't do that. Please send that memo to your Republican friends I think they missed that one.

You are correct in clarifying that many Republicans have also been guilty of pork-projects. Thus, the reason for me saying that "I am proud of the Republicans who have not..." as opposed to "I am proud of Republicans for not..."
I shouldn't have been so subtle.

So are we on the same page as far as not supporting pork projects?

[oladub]

that would not have ANY impact at all on the average american. The Fed is ALREADY subject to audit, anyway, although some exemptions should be removed

Inflation and recessions do effect the average American and, yes, prices have been going up on taxes, in health care, and at the grocery store. The Federal Reserve is at the center of and owned by the mega bank cabal. The Fed electronically prints money which it loans to it's member banks at almost no interest. It's member banks, in turn, lend out this money to make money. More money chasing the same goods inevitably causes prices to rise [[supply-demand). This ongoing act of the Fed has been largely responsible for the dollar losing 96% of its spending value since the inception of the Fed. Had the dollar remained gold and silver based, it would have retained it's value. How is that for impacting the average American?


74. Auditing the Fed would deliver something to the American people that they badly want and need, something that the Obama Administration promised to deliver: more transparency!


75. Auditing the Fed makes practical sense. Why would Democrats or Republicans want so much power in the hands of a small group of wealthy bankers? It is antithetical to both their political platforms and respective ideologies. Auditing and abolishing the Fed is a non-partisan solution to a serious problem.


76 reasons to audit the fed [[and end the fed)

Among other things, the fed does not get audited for transactions for or with a foreign central bank, government of a foreign country, or non private international financing organization. So here we have a private group of bankers setting up huge agreements with foreign governments; something which even states are not allowed to do. In such matters, the Fed is not accountable to Congress. HR1207 would have changed that at least to the extent of allowing Congress to know what the bankers are up to.


Rep. Alan Grayson [[D) would strongly disagree with you that there is a significant amount of auditing being done of the Federal Reserve. Here he is asking about $9T of off budget loans by the Fed and getting stonewalled.
Alan Grayson: Is Anyone Minding the Store at the Federal Reserve? [[2M views)

Alan Grayson: "Which Foreigners Got the Fed's $500,000,000,000?" Bernanke: "I Don't Know."
Or try Bernie Sanders asking where $2.2T went and having Bernanke telling him he wouldn't.
SEN. SANDERS GOES OFF ON BERNANKE_ 03/03/09

Senator Sanders eventually caved on the Senate side. This shouldn't be a partisamn matter but the fact remains that every Republican in the House voted for a full independent audit of the fed while the President opposed this transparancy and moved ahead to expand the power of the fed and further bail out the banks with his Christmas Eve present to those banks.

'Twas the night before Christmas, when through the White House
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse;
Portfolios were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that the President soon would be there;
Down the stairs Obama came with a bound.
An executive order he had flung on his back,
And he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
His eyes -- how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his breath smelled like sherry!
He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled the banks' stockings; then turned with a jerk,
And flew up the stairs like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, ere he went out of sight,
"I pleased Goldman Sachs to have a good-night."

[rb336]

Baseless libertarian hoohah

[oladub]

Baseless libertarian hoohah

-The Fed isn't owned by banks?
-The costs of food, health care, and taxes aren't increasing?
-The value of the dollar hasn't lost 96% of it's value since 1914?
-The fed doesn't get audited for transactions for or with a foreign central bank, government of a foreign country, or non private international financing organization?
-A dollar saved isn't a dollar earned?
-Alan Grayson and Bernie Sanders are libertarians?
-Republicans didn't support HR1207 in the House?
-President Obama didn't recently expand the powers of the Federal Reserve and give a Chistmas present to mega banks?
-You aren't a chearleader for Goldman-Sachs pretending to care for the common man?

Hoohah?

[TKshreve]

crickets . . .?

[rb336]

No, ola, your gold standard BS is hoohah

[ghettopalmetto]

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

[Sstashmoo]

GhettoP, The Onion?

[rb336]

I'm pretty sure GP understands. funny part is, there are plenty of people who won't get the joke. describes your average tea partier to a tee

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "funny part is, there are plenty of people who won't get the joke."

The bad part is, this movement of ignorant Beck-led idiots is gaining in numbers and political persuasion.

[oladub]

No, ola, your gold standard BS is hoohah

I'm glad you agree on the other points.

Actually, it is the gold and silver standard as in "No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts" as stated in the Constitution. Congress also has the power "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin." It has done that in the past by establishing trading values between gold and silver [[for instance 1/16 or 1/15) and deciding what coins are made of.

I am not as sanguine about the loss of value, an inflationary tax, resulting from federal Reserve monetary policy and it's use of the printing press made possible with fiat money backed with nothing. All currency used to be convertable into silver upon demand. It said so on silver certificates. Gold was used largely for international transactions, silver, at least silver certificates, for domestic transactions.

Currency was removed from the gold standard in two steps. Roosevelt made it illegal for Americans to own gold and tried to confiscate their gold. He followed that action up by devaluing the Dollar by a third as measured in gold to pay off government debt with devalued dollars. Nixon coundn't pay for the Vietnam War without also devaluing the dollar or raising taxes so he totally scrapped the gold standard. Silver cerificates were replaced with Federal Reserve debt notes which are backed by nothing although the US does still own gold to pay off some foreign debts.

Until and through 1964, every dollar worth of silver coins [[dimes, quarters, half-dallars, and dollars) contained .7234 ounces of silver. Silver cerificates could be exchanged for coins containing silver; a simple transaction. Today's coins have no silver. Getting back to "hoohah", let's compare the purchasing power of a dollar worth of today's coins with a dollar worth of 1964 or earlier coins at-
Silver Coin Melt Value Calculation
http://www.coinflation.com/coins/silver_coin_calculator.html

The scrap value of silver at this moment is $17.76 per troy ounce so a dollar worth of 1964 or earlier coins has a scrapyard value of $9.99. That means that had we remained on the gold/silver standard, our diollars would buy 9.99 times more than the federal reserve notes you like so much. Gasoline would cost about 28 cents a gallon instead of $2.83, we could afford health care with out Obama's idiot plan, tuition would still be $350 a semester, etc..

Maintaining the gold/silver standard, would have made it much harder for the federal government and the federal government to make us poor while expanding their own powers. If I haven't convinced you and you would still rather have federal reserve notes, let's make a deal. Send me all the 1964 dimes, quarters, half dollars, and silver dollars you have and I will pay for the shipping and give you 10% over face value because I don't know any better. I'll even send you newly printed federal reserve notes in payment. Deal?