Missionaries arrested at Arab festival in Dearborn

**smogboy** · June-21-10, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by WildWolverine

"I see that these guys got arrested for being disruptive, not for being Christian. I don't blame the Dearborn cops. Arrest anyone and everyone who does this, regardless of religion."

Smogboy--are you that sure you want people practicing freedom of speech to be arrested for "being disruptive?". You cannot be that stupid, can you? You don't have freedom of speech if your government arrests you because it doesn't like having to deal with what you are saying. Or having to actually protect your right to speak freely... [[God forbid the cops actually have to work rather than just take the easy way out. Arresting them , despite the paperwork, WAS the easy way out. That way they didn't have to defend someone's rights, which takes REAL work and thought.)
The old wisdom of "I didn't speak out against tyranny because it wasn't me they were taking away" applies here. You may not like their choice of religion, their choice of where to speak out, etc... but we ALL had better protect it.
And to those that say "you don't have a right to avoid the consequences of what you say"....You do if it's your government trying to put you in jail for it. A private company can silence it's employees, a private organization can muzzle it's members, [[or punish them somehow for speaking out) but the government can't and shouldn't be about that. Please think about about what you are saying...or perhaps you'd like the police sent to your home to arrest you for the thoughts and actions you might be "inciting" here on this board.

I never said ANYTHING about them practicing free speech. They have the right to practice free speech but obviously not the right to be disruptive.

Freedom of speech also has responsibilities [[ie. yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater has been the most obvious version of irresponsible freedom of speech). Obviously these folks stepped across that fuzzy line and ended up on the wrong side of the law. I'm not advocating one religion or another but obviously one group espoused their views a little too vehemently here. Have you taken a few moments to read about these folks? They obviously came here to not to spread their message or inform people but to incite action from a particular group.

Some can argue that these people were also here as a form of ethnic intimidation as well. Could one of the people the Christian zealots were "talking to" felt threatened or harassed and called the cops? Of course it's a very fine FINE line when it comes to freedom of speech; but at what point does it become threatening, intimidating [["you're going to hell!"), or just plain disruptive to public order?

**daddeeo** · June-22-10, 12:19 PM

When people go to a festival they are going to enjoy themselves and not to have someone get in their face and try to convert them.
Christians should practice more what they preach about tolerance etc.
I'd say leave the preaching at church or get a booth. If folks are interested , they'll come over to view the freak show.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 12:21 PM

Is Christianity the only religion that proselytizes? Certainly seems to be the standout in that regard.

**GOAT** · June-22-10, 12:27 PM

Not even close detroitnerd. What religion is Christianity? I never heard of it? I know of Christian religions but not Christianity as a religion. Please elaborate.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 12:32 PM

Christianity is one of the world's great religions, Goat. You surely have heard of it.

**Detroitej72** · June-22-10, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Maybe that's one thing in Muslims' favor: They're less likely to bore you by trying to "save" you.

Maybe they'll just blow up the infidel's.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

Maybe they'll just blow up the infidel's.

Arab or Muslim people blowing up other people is wrong, wrong, wrong.

But blowing up lots of shit all over the Arab and Muslim worlds with unmanned planes is kinda cool. We kill a few bad guys, maybe, and whatever innocent men, women and children who are dumb enough to be there. It's cool. They won't get pissed about that or anything.

Remember, they just hate our freedoms.

**Zacha341** · June-22-10, 12:48 PM

I'll start with a quote: "It's useless to offer someone a sweet rose to smell after you've cut off their nose"... When Christians choose to witness they have to be mindful on how any witness is presented.

Christianity IS NOT the only religion that proselytizes! Americans just tend to think that. A cursory study in comparative religions provides that insight on the topic.

Talk to people form other cultures/ countries and they will give you an EARFUL about force applied in the cause of religion, with full government endorsement and enforcement!! Think Sudan and Saudia Arabia for example. We are dealing with light stuff comparably.

It's a huge topic but here's a thumbnail sketch: Islam and Christianity both have teachings regarding conversion, enthusiastically presented down thru the ages and currently expressed by some. The Bible specifically speaks to evangelizing and building a mission field [[thus why the word missionary and evangelical is applied to active Christian practice that engage others).

These missions or persons, or churches act upon a maxim to provide awareness about the faith and its tenants and teaching. Also, Christianity is NOT the only religion that promotes exclusion of other faiths.

Fact: Withstanding a certain level of pluralistic courtesy Islam is exclusivistic, Christianity is exclusivistic, Scientology is exclusivistic, Judaism is, are as are ohers... even the B'hais are exclusivistic towards the exclusvists if no one else. LOL!

Even what Americans often naively consider as the catch-all light and airy "eastern" Hindu faiths have rules/ exclusions.

Islam and Christianity for example both have non-negotiables neither will trade off: Non-negotiables such as Jesus as good prophet [[Islam) vs. Jesus as Lord and Savior [[Christianity)...

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Is Christianity the only religion that proselytizes? Certainly seems to be the standout in that regard.

**Zacha341** · June-22-10, 12:58 PM

Indeed it can be problematic to state the "disruptive" defense without a careful evaluation. After all for some stating that "Jesus is Lord" is or a cross in a desert, is, well disruptive.

And history shows that some governments and systems have deemed certain statements to be dangerous and subversive to certain agendas and world views.

bartock · June-22-10, 01:05 PM

I had a Jesuit [[Catholic) in college who professed pluralism. I don't even think he molested youngsters. That pluralism thing is kind of neat.

Like many of the Arabs in this area, I am sure many of the Arabs who went to this festival are Chaldean.

**GOAT** · June-22-10, 01:10 PM

Detroitnerd, I have heqard of Roman Catholicism which is differnt that Protestant, which is different than Baptist, which is different than Anglican which is different than Presbyterian, etc....

I have never heard of the Christianity religion as all of the above are Christian-based religions.

**Zacha341** · June-22-10, 01:20 PM

Good point. I think a certain amount of pluralism is part of our fabric to get along... I am just always mindful of the non-negotiables that cannot be traded away. Thus, I will not be surprised with the those exclusive, non-negotiables come up.

Originally Posted by bartock

I had a Jesuit [[Catholic) in college who professed pluralism. I don't even think he molested youngsters. That pluralism thing is kind of neat.

Like many of the Arabs in this area, I am sure many of the Arabs who went to this festival are Chaldean.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

Detroitnerd, I have heqard of Roman Catholicism which is differnt that Protestant, which is different than Baptist, which is different than Anglican which is different than Presbyterian, etc....

I have never heard of the Christianity religion as all of the above are Christian-based religions.

Goat, I don't know what sort of fundamentalist background you come from, but even a Roman Catholic priest told me that Christianity is a religion, and that Catholicism is a part of that great religion.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I'll start with a quote: ... Non-negotiables such as Jesus as good prophet [[Islam) vs. Jesus as Lord and Savior [[Christianity)...

Interesting post, Zacha. Thanks!

**Zacha341** · June-22-10, 01:26 PM

Anytime! Once in a while I'll wade into the "scary" waters of religion when it comes up. Easier to do when I am on vacation and not so busy

!

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Interesting post, Zacha. Thanks!

**GOAT** · June-22-10, 01:49 PM

I am a RC and I have never heard of that whatsoever and I am quite involved in my parish. I am sure they are lumping all of these religions under one as all believe that Jesus is the Christ, directly from God. However, these religions are not the same as many have different customs and practices that differentiate each unto themselves.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by GOAT

I am a RC and I have never heard of that whatsoever and I am quite involved in my parish. I am sure they are lumping all of these religions under one as all believe that Jesus is the Christ, directly from God. However, these religions are not the same as many have different customs and practices that differentiate each unto themselves.

He was pretty clear: Christianity is the religion, Roman Catholic is a denomination.

**econ expat** · June-22-10, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by bartock

Like many of the Arabs in this area, I am sure many of the Arabs who went to this festival are Chaldean.

Although most are from Iraq, The Chaldeans I know do not consider themselves as Arabs, preferring Mid East, anything but- 'Arab' is seen to imply Muslim beliefs to them.

**Detroitnerd** · June-22-10, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by econ expat

Although most are from Iraq, The Chaldeans I know do not consider themselves as Arabs, preferring Mid East, anything but- 'Arab' is seen to imply Muslim beliefs to them.

That must be because so many Americans are ignorant of the Middle East. It's pretty clear to me that Arabs and Muslims are not always the same thing.

bartock · June-22-10, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by econ expat

Although most are from Iraq, The Chaldeans I know do not consider themselves as Arabs, preferring Mid East, anything but- 'Arab' is seen to imply Muslim beliefs to them.

That is interesting, If you know, does "Arab" have a derogatory connotation to Chaldeans, or is it more of a concern - especially in this climate - regarding the religious misunderstanding?

I have noticed at some liquor/party stores [[I AM Catholic) there are signs that say "we are Chaldean," along with an image of Jesus.

**econ expat** · June-22-10, 02:43 PM

Bingo [[tossing in a Catholic joke)

Many Chaldean businesses post Catholic icons all over to make it clear they are Catholic, but more so that they are not Muslim. Since so many Americans presume Arabic is Muslim, the Chaldeans avoid that label.

After all, many left Iraq to avoid persecution.

**Roq** · June-23-10, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by daddeeo

When people go to a festival they are going to enjoy themselves and not to have someone get in their face and try to convert them.
Christians should practice more what they preach about tolerance etc.
I'd say leave the preaching at church or get a booth. If folks are interested , they'll come over to view the freak show.

Amen brother!

**Thruster315** · June-23-10, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by econ expat

After all, many left Iraq to avoid persecution.

Only to have a bunch of fundamentalist Christian kooks here in Dearborn harass them. Lovely irony isn't it?

bartock · June-23-10, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Thruster315

Only to have a bunch of fundamentalist Christian kooks here in Dearborn harass them. Lovely irony isn't it?

Actually, the display of free speech is probably celebrated.

Are you really comparing some boisterous weirdo with a sign [[ever been to Mardi Gras?) to the persecution many local Chaldeans faced in Iraq? I think they would be rather amused by that. The irony for them is that in Iraq they would be have been killed for doing what the kooks are doing, whereas here, we defend the rights of kooks to have their say.

**Zacha341** · June-23-10, 08:13 AM

Point well stated.

Originally Posted by bartock

...Are you really comparing some boisterous weirdo with a sign [[ever been to Mardi Gras?) to the persecution many local Chaldeans faced in Iraq? I think they would be rather amused by that. The irony for them is that in Iraq they would be have been killed for doing what the kooks are doing, whereas here, we defend the rights of kooks to have their say.