Atheist Roll Call

[1KielsonDrive]

The founding documents reference the "Creator"

A friend of mine, who is a devil worshipper, references the "creator", quite often.

[terryh]

The founding documents reference the "Creator"

That doesnt prove there is an intervening god that demands we behave in a ritualistic manner. Several of the founding fathers, were deists and agnostics....

[terryh]

I am myself fairly atheistic. But I go to church frequently with a small group of friends who enjoy Detroit's old historic churches, which are incredibly beautiful and inspiring. I also enjoy reading the Bible at times and have three different versions. I contribute to the churches when I attend and I volunteer to help with grounds work at St. Albertus.

I am officially Lutheran, but honestly I just don't believe it all. And I don't believe any other religion other than Christianity. This year I acheived a lifetime goal and attended an Orthodox church service at Orthodox Christmas, it was a wonderful experience

I am skeptical by nature though, I find religions fascinating and I admire many Christian sects.
I am drawn toward atheists very much, I enjoy talking with them.

Am I conflicted??? oh yeah, BIG time.

I agree many of the churches are architectural masterpieces.....

[rb336]

Quote: "on what subject? they know nothing except their own terribly narrow view of a terribly narrow religious mindset"

That's why they've built empires with millions of followers, and you're... you haven't..

They have built empires and grown wealthy off their weak-minded followers. that does not take a great level of intelligence, only a strong sense of greed and entitlement

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "They have built empires and grown wealthy off their weak-minded followers."

Pessimism and optimism. You see only bad, I see good and realize they aren't perfect.

[Detroitnerd]

Atheism is a religion for non-believers.

Haha. Yeah. Without a church, a god, a priest, a weekly service or a bible. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. Atheism is a non-religion for non-believers.

[rb336]

Quote: "They have built empires and grown wealthy off their weak-minded followers."

Pessimism and optimism. You see only bad, I see good and realize they aren't perfect.

no, realism vs. blind obedience. they are suckering their followers out of huge wads of cash. [[note -- i am not saying "all" ministers, or even all televangelists)

[1KielsonDrive]

I agree many of the churches are architectural masterpieces.....

Yeah, the arch-diocese of Los Angeles just spent a couple hundred millions building a new cathedral despite poverty and hunger and lawsuits over abuse. The cardinal and arch-diocese of Detroit contributed tens of millions to a pope museum in Washington DC after closing schools and parishes in Detroit. Whatta racket.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "blind obedience."

No, I'm just smart enough to perceive it and understand, rather than send everyone to the gallows because I don't agree with them.

I've never understood liberals that are always poking their nose in to the business of others. 300 million other people in this country, we each have a right to believe what we want without being harassed continually, by supposed "liberals". Misnomer.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "they are suckering their followers out of huge wads of cash."

Just an FYI. The folks handing over the cash? That's between them and God. The folks receiving the cash? That's between them and God too. The word is very clear about taking advantage of one's faith, harming the young ones. [[Young in faith). Like it would be better to tie a big rock around your neck and jump in the sea.

[Detroitej72]

The cardinal and arch-diocese of Detroit contributed tens of millions to a pope museum in Washington DC after closing schools and parishes in Detroit. Whatta racket.

Last time I checked, the schools that were closed had such a small number of students[[due to the lack of Catholics living in Detroit) that it wasn't even feasible to have a class. Tell me, professor, how can you keep a school open without a student population?

I suspect this is more anti-Catholic ranting by someone who is not of the faith, and therefore, not very objective.

As for the closed parishes,[[of which included my church) how often did you attend them?

[rb336]

how is calling these charlatains out sticking anyones nose in anyones business? might as well say "those damn liberals going after bernie madoff..."

[kryptonite]

Not all atheists are liberals by any stretch of the imagination, and not all atheists are liberals. Not all conservatives are fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc.

From my perspective, liberals are much more open minded and tolerant than conservatives. If many conservatives had their way we would live in a Christian totalitarian society much like citizens of Islamic law countries.

[maxx]

Quote: "blind obedience."

No, I'm just smart enough to perceive it and understand, rather than send everyone to the gallows because I don't agree with them.

Nah. You just swallow someone else's apologetics.

I've never understood liberals that are always poking their nose in to the business of others. 300 million other people in this country, we each have a right to believe what we want without being harassed continually, by supposed "liberals". Misnomer.

Liberals poking their noses in others' business?? There goes my irony meter! Who is constantly working to ensure that no woman, who doesn't have the money to travel to another state or country, has no choice about continuing a pregnancy and despite what her doctor may advise? Who is constantly fretting about the sexual practices of others? Self-righteous busybodies. Not liberals.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Self-righteous busybodies."

Good label for you. Your way or the highway. Look at your gibberish on here, every post has some display of you condemning others for how they believe. Liberal? Anything but.

Quote: "Nah. You just swallow someone else's apologetics."

Nah, I believe in something real to me, and think you're full of it.

[terryh]

Quote: "Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are the poster boys for everything that is wrong with people's perceptions of Christianity."

Wrong, they are excellent vehicles for the anti-religion folk to drag out when they want to vent their hatred of all that's good and bash believers. These evangelists made mistakes, they are men, not God. One can surely not discount, the good they've done. Leading many to a belief in God, offering hope, support and solace in times of need. That must be considered. What does the Atheist offer? Nothing.

Friends and family can offer support in times of need...many people decide to believe in a supernatural beings when they are emotionally distraught and not thinking clearly....losing a loved one was somehow a message to THEM... Volunteer at a hospice; homeless shelter; special olympics etc...groveling before an intervening deity isnt productive and doesnt do youre fellow man any good...get off youre knees and volunteer!

[terryh]

Not all atheists are liberals by any stretch of the imagination, and not all atheists are liberals. Not all conservatives are fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc.

From my perspective, liberals are much more open minded and tolerant than conservatives. If many conservatives had their way we would live in a Christian totalitarian society much like citizens of Islamic law countries.

True some Atheists have a social darwinian-Ive got mine youre problem is youre problem perspective of life..and some psycho-paths hide behind the guise of religion in order to torture, decapitate and humiliate victims....and didnt Hitler and Mussolini encounter little opposition and protest from the Catholic church? We dont need a belief in order to do what is innate-to feel compassion for our fellow human beings....to donate blood or an organ...we do those things [[unto others as we would have them do unto us) because those behaviours are the ethical thing to do....

[terryh]

Some reasons humans decide to believe in a higher being and claim a religion...

1. They had an emotion falsely attributed to an 'epihany'....
2. Fear of their own mortatlity
3. Conformity and tradition
4. Social behaviours that they dont approve of or understand.
5. Ego and empowerment. An educated person, such as the sheik who officiated mine and my wifes 'engagement' ceremony, has a little extra power and status,easy money, and can sway other people to take a particular stance on select political issues?
Some random thoughts on the discussion....

[maxx]

True some Atheists have a social darwinian-Ive got mine youre problem is youre problem perspective of life..and some psycho-paths hide behind the guise of religion in order to torture, decapitate and humiliate victims....and didnt Hitler and Mussolini encounter little opposition and protest from the Catholic church? We dont need a belief in order to do what is innate-to feel compassion for our fellow human beings....to donate blood or an organ...we do those things [[unto others as we would have them do unto us) because those behaviours are the ethical thing to do....

and not because we need an extraordinary reward to do the right thing. The Abrahamic religions teach the lowest form of morality, i.e., do it or get punished.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "many people decide to believe in a supernatural beings when they are emotionally distraught and not thinking clearly..."

So, people that believe in a God are mentally impaired? Oh that's special..

I see people that do not believe in a higher power as not very intelligent or enlightened.. unaware. There are too may things in this world, that defy all understanding, Science simply shrugs. To understand something, one must be able to explain it. How can one make a decision about anything unless it is totally understood? Then the decision becomes an emotional one, for me I believe in a higher power, if you don't, so be it.

[Retroit]

If Atheists were as zealous in their beliefs as they are in their dis-beliefs, who knows?...maybe I would be turned off from believing.

terryh: ...didnt Hitler and Mussolini encounter little opposition and protest from the Catholic church?

I always roll-my-eyes when I hear this myth perpetuated.

• First of all, Hitler and Mussolini encountered little opposition and protest form the whole world! The Russians signed a non-aggression agreement, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain had an appeasement policy with Hitler, the U.S.A. was reluctant to get involved in the war, Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh had praise for Hitler's Germany, and on-and-on.
• Thousands of Catholics were persecuted by the Germans, many facing a fate similar to Jews. Many Catholics tried to undermine the efforts of the Nazis and greatly aided Jews in escaping from the Nazis. Yes, there were some Catholics who were members of the German government, as were Jews [[in the early days). What did the Jews do to fight Nazism? Why aren't they accused of co-conspiracy with the Nazis like the Catholics? What about all the Protestant churches...what did they do?
• What exactly would you have expected the Catholic Church to do? Send in all 100 of the Papal Swiss Guards into Germany to defeat Hitler with their pikes and 16th century gear? Would you honestly expect the Pope to make a proclamation against Hitler while he was residing in a country [[Italy) which was allied with Hitler? More benefit was extended to Jews by keeping the Church intact than would have been with an outright Papal denunciation.

[terryh]

If Atheists were as zealous in their beliefs as they are in their dis-beliefs, who knows?...maybe I would be turned off from believing.






I always roll-my-eyes when I hear this myth perpetuated.

• First of all, Hitler and Mussolini encountered little opposition and protest form the whole world! The Russians signed a non-aggression agreement, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain had an appeasement policy with Hitler, the U.S.A. was reluctant to get involved in the war, Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh had praise for Hitler's Germany, and on-and-on.
• Thousands of Catholics were persecuted by the Germans, many facing a fate similar to Jews. Many Catholics tried to undermine the efforts of the Nazis and greatly aided Jews in escaping from the Nazis. Yes, there were some Catholics who were members of the German government, as were Jews [[in the early days). What did the Jews do to fight Nazism? Why aren't they accused of co-conspiracy with the Nazis like the Catholics? What about all the Protestant churches...what did they do?
• What exactly would you have expected the Catholic Church to do? Send in all 100 of the Papal Swiss Guards into Germany to defeat Hitler with their pikes and 16th century gear? Would you honestly expect the Pope to make a proclamation against Hitler while he was residing in a country [[Italy) which was allied with Hitler? More benefit was extended to Jews by keeping the Church intact than would have been with an outright Papal denunciation.

Good points, but doesn't the Vatican have a connection to a higher being? Why didnt they just pray Fascism away? Just askin

[Retroit]

Good points, but doesn't the Vatican have a connection to a higher being? Why didnt they just pray Fascism away? Just askin

God does not exist to follow man's orders. It's our job to conquer evil with goodness. Just tellin

[gibran]

[quote=terryh;159089]Some reasons humans decide to believe in a higher being and claim a religion...

1. They had an emotion falsely attributed to an 'epihany'....
2. Fear of their own mortatlity
3. Conformity and tradition
4. Social behaviours that they don't approve of or understand.
5. Ego and empowerment. An educated person, such as the sheik who officiated mine and my wifes 'engagement' ceremony, has a little extra power and status,easy money, and can sway other people to take a particular stance on select political issues?
Some random thoughts on the discussion....


With all due respect:

1. When Newton's apple fell on his head [[metaphorically) he had an Epiphany...we couldn't see the gravitational pull he put forth in a theory, but based on his stature we accepted it after scientific confirmation. The emotional concept of faith has to do with the solid psychological concept of hope. Hope that our ancestors were witness to acts and had listened to the metaphors that they could grasp cognitively at the time. The epiphany is when something happens that is beyond traditional science and our cognitive ability at this moment in time to really understand it...that epiphany is like an enlightenment to some and faith to others...we can't really explain everything without a combination of faith [[in the science and history of our ancestors and the religion or religious explanations they set forth to keep the understanding going) science and hope.

2. Fear of ones mortality is one rational way to face the uncertainty of death..one can say the person is hedging their bets....but it is in true faith and belief that on e really finds solace in the promise of a spiritual eternity. Fear can only take one so far in preparation for death...Who really knows what death is...maybe a transfer of energy...seriously doubt it is a cloud filled world floating above us...or even a place where you are greated with 72 virgins...most likely it is a metaphysical energy that unites us with all of life sources including our own hisorical families... I wish it is a physical palce..but I seriuosly doubt you would have had much understanding of a metaphysical place back in the acient times....

3. conformity and tradition ...isn't that what science is also...we stand on the research of past scientists..on historians...on social commentaries...so as we hear the stories [[ and I mean stories) we see that maybe the similarities between civilizations were a repeat of the same concepts...who is to know if we are planted here...no one can account on one asteroid creating such diverity or maybe that was the plan too? we are too primitive to understand the physics and science behind creation...but maybe thats is why it will be revealed as we go... Tradition is one thing ...religion has to be reinvented from time to time as man corrupts the original intent..but then again so does science and politics.

4. we construct our understanding of the physical world as we gain knowledge how things work collectively and through the mutual understanding of each event. Whose to say that we constructed God by evolving from a multiple Deity based understanding to a creator based evolution in understanding...but to say there is no God without definitive proof can be like saying prove to he/she doesn't exist without scientific proof. It is pure speculation...but something historically transformed man to become a collective creature ... and if the label that creation is God's work than prove to me that it is not...b) so then why is God so cruel to his creations and why does God let children die... I can't speak for his intentions but if one understands that it is the eternity that he is after for each of us and this is just creation set in motion with it's own consequences then maybe it is less painful to see the cruelty of this physical world. How can one not approve of loving the neighbor [[translated as all people) as thy brother or a part of one's self. Atheists practice ethics all the time...and maybe just maybe their roots in self determination and randomness is not that random after all...maybe a drifting in meaning...and understanding...not wrong...just different.

5) we came out of the caves with the concept of status...those who could hunt better led us...those who could problem solve better taught us...they were no better, but because their skills were needed we elevated them...today those whose guidance leads us closer to civility should inspire us...but we have to beware of false Prophets in both the secular and religious worlds. we can deny and accept a lot of things ..because we want reaffrimation of our existence.

Science is not exact...neither is religion...both are man made but inspired but a quest to understand...some take a simpl eblind faith approach...some a hard science approach...but it may be a combination of both faith [[which is what all science is about anywa) and hope that our intellect is confirmed in the end...faith and hope are based on past experience and teachings of those who have lioved longer...no problems with no hard facts...but open your mind and heart to the idea that we don't know everything with 100 certainity...so hedging your bets ...isn't bad...but being comfortable in your faith is great....whatever that faith is...and as long as you don't hurt others to profess it.

[maxx]

Gibran: Who really knows what death is...maybe a transfer of energy...seriously doubt it is a cloud filled world floating above us...or even a place where you are greated with 72 virgins.

You mean Jesus had it wrong???


John.14

1. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

..but to say there is no God without definitive proof can be like saying prove to he/she doesn't exist without scientific proof. It is pure speculation...but something historically transformed man to become a collective creature...

If by "collective creature" you mean a social animal, there are plenty of social animals, bees, dogs, apes.

and if the label that creation is God's work than prove to me that it is not..

Since you want to believe in magic,which creator god are you referring to ? Oh, that's right, your god or the latest god. The god without a name or is it YHWH?

being comfortable in your faith is great....whatever that faith is...and as long as you don't hurt others to profess it.

I agree accept for the word "hurt". Many would take that word literally to mean physically hurting someone rather than curtailing freedoms or denying information.