Helen Thomas: you're only as good as your last story

[gibran]

The sad thing is when you look things from a Psychological perspective many things become apparent...the collective guilt, the resolve to survive at all cost in the concentration camps, the the displacement of helplessness and anger, the PTSD on both sides, the never again mentality...this whole thing is one sad psychological mess...it goes against the grain of social justice which was the pillar of Jewish activism and who loses...

the children of middle-east..both Arab and Jew...

BAck to Helen..she has seen so much of how this conflict has played out ..what fair journalist wouldn't get tired and speak their mind..look at Chomsky and Zinn...and many others..the pressure and anger they get in return form Krauthammer and Dueshowitz etal..would take its toll on anyone who criticizes Israel ....no one want the anti-Semite label..because it comes with such a horrible history...but one should be careful not to use labels against other in the same way...because it cheapens the fact the bigotry is still an issue.

[gnome]

Seems the strongest voices against Helen Thomas are coming from two sides: the far right "neo-cons" and the far left "progressives".

Weird to think the two extremes can now break bread over the career demise of Helen. Freedom of speech on everything except Israel.

[Pam]

Seems the strongest voices against Helen Thomas are coming from two sides: the far right "neo-cons" and the far left "progressives".

I don't think it is that clear cut. Based on the stuff I read on "progressive" sites, opinion is divided. An example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=389x8523764

[Retroit]

Suggesting Jews return to countries where they were killed in the Holocaust is pretty insensitive and not constructive in solving the issues.

Would it be insensitive to suggest that American Indians return to areas where they were killed? Why wouldn't it also be insensitive to suggest that Jews return to an area where so many of them were killed in biblical times [[Israel/Judea/Palestine)?

I think that Helen's comments were actually pro-Jewish, although anti-Israel. She was simply saying that Jews should have stayed in Europe, where they had been living for centuries, instead of occupying land that was confiscated in the hope of getting them out of Europe.

[rb336]

Seems the strongest voices against Helen Thomas are coming from two sides: the far right "neo-cons" and the far left "progressives".

Weird to think the two extremes can now break bread over the career demise of Helen. Freedom of speech on everything except Israel.

coming from totally different sets of values -- the right view Israel as an untouchable thing -- NO ONE can criticize the Zionist state! they are our best friends! {add rhetoric here} The far left views the comments as echoes of right-wing nationalistic bullcrap

[Pam]

She was simply saying that Jews should have stayed in Europe, where they had been living for centuries,

And were persecuted for centuries.

[gibran]

there is no monopoly on hate..and to perpetuate it today is so wrong...two wrongs never make a right...and unless you see truths people who are demonized and marginalized will continue to be easy targets,,,, if there is nothing to hide then tell the truth and see what can evolve as a society [[transparency and truth will set a country free)..to hind the truth only hurts those whose agenda is less than righteousness...Jews have been the victims of practices of genocide and ethnic cleansing...as well as non communists under stalin [[millions), millions of Chinese in the revolutions...Amerindians, Rwandans, Sudan etc..our native Americans and Africans...Christians at the hands of Romans..you get the point...

all these horrors should make one more in tuned to the suffering of others...That shouldn't give free passes to oppression and ethnic cleansing by the victors...we are not the middle-ages..Israel has a right to protect itself..they have the responsibility then to protect their conquered too...they have the power; they have the control..that-is what people are seeing...give real truth and then deal with the Floatila, thousands of jailed Palestinians without trials etc....we here only hear about the private Shalit captured by Hamas...but we don't hear of the teenagers captured and branded terrorists by Israel...we hear about the flotilla, but not of the real conditions in Gaza..we hear about rockets hitting Israel from Gaza but not the phosphorus and cluster bombs hitting civilians in Lebanon and Gaza...my point is do the research and see the roots of the issues...not try to see who started it [[that is for two year old...we know that two sides started this...) we hear only the talking points articulated eloquently about how Hamas does this, and Palestinians do that...we are so guilted into agreeing blindly all the time that we forget that one side is shaping the discussion through media and Zionist christian tv...

"truth we can't handle the truth" is so appropriate here...


we hear about ones side only because you have people like Micheal Orin who was educated here talking on the Colbert report and joking about things with his articulate English...but no one is going to challenge him on the facts...that is why Helen got in trouble [[she was wrong to say go back to countries..in the context of how it was presented....). But ..challenge the half truths by both sides of the conflict through thoughtful research...and you will find a lot of false flag operations that will raise your eyebrows...and horrible practices by the Hamas and other groups also....the truth is both sides have innocent blood on their hands...and if we don't stop this nonsense it will continues..but we have to look past Likud/AIPAC and their trained blogger and writers and see the realities... Everyone wants to win the PR war..but the truth shouldn't be the causality

[Retroit]

And were persecuted for centuries.

I don't think she was condoning persecution. Are the Jews living in Europe today being persecuted? Are Palestinian rockets falling into their neighborhoods?

[Patrick]

I do know that Abe Foxman has had an issue with her for years. This I Know...

[Mikeg]

Suggesting Jews return to countries where they were killed in the Holocaust is pretty insensitive and not constructive in solving the issues.

Suggesting Jews return to countries such as Poland where they were killed in pogroms long after the Holocaust had ended reveals either a significant lack of historical knowledge or pure anti-Semitism.

The Kielce Pogrom - July 4, 1946

........The pogrom in Kielce began about 10 a.m. and ended in the afternoon. Anti-Jewish events took place not only at Planty Street but all over town. In Kielce, a Jewish mother and baby were carried out of their house and killed. Anti-Jewish actions also occured on trains passing through Kielce that day. Over forty people were killed in the pogrom......

An additional psychological factor that should be mentioned is the Poles' memory of the behavior of some Jews on the Polish territories seized by the Soviet Union in September 1939. Disputes over property were motivating factors in their anti-Semitism. For example, 13 Jews were killed in the Kielce region in June 1945. Ten of them were killed because of property disputes. From June 1945 to December 1945 there were about thirty attacks on Jews in all of Poland. Eleven attacks involved robbery, and five were caused by property disputes.........

The pogrom in Kielce was a turning point in the post-war history of Jews in Poland. After the pogrom, the majority of the Jews remaining in Poland decided to leave. Until July 1946, some groups of Jews had wanted to stay in Poland in spite of dominant influence exerted by Zionism. Before the pogrom, an average of one thousand Jews crossed the Polish border illegally each month. In July, August, and September 1946, over sixty thousand Jews left Poland..........

Both Jewish and Polish reports spoke of an atmosphere of panic among Jewish society in the summer of 1946. Jews no longer believed that they could be safe in Poland. Despite the large militia and army presence in the town of Kielce, Jews had been murdered there in cold blood, in public, and for a period of more than five hours. The news that the militia and the army had taken part in the pogrom spread as well. From July 1945 until June 1946, about fifty thousand Jews passed the Polish border illegally. In July 1946, almost twenty thousand decided to leave Poland. In August 1946 the number increased to thirty thousand. In September 1946, twelve thousand Jews left Poland......

[gibran]

Foxman has issues with anyone that questions Israel...he is out of touch...

[gibran]

I don't know what is in Helen heart but she has had many friends in the Jewish community for years...she has strong feelings about the current condition in Palestine and Israel and her comments were over the top and wrong ....knowing the tragic history of Jewish Europe...But i would say the total disregard for Palestinians and their history is no better..those who claim there are no Palestinians living in Israel prior to the 1940's are almost as bad holocaust deniers and those like Dershowitz and Krauthammer, Coulter, Beck and Rush are just as bigoted towards people in the middle-east...we should eradicate racism and bigotry anywhere...and wouldn't it better if we had sat down with Helen and asked her for context...and used it as an educational moment....

or is freedom of speech limited to the messages that some want and not others....we need to shift this discussion to why the polarization of the topic and what are the solutions. Not just who can plead their case better.

[Sstashmoo]

Some Jews argued over property and a few were robbed or attacked, and this is some sort of ethnic cleansing? Bad things happen to people all the time, only a group of racists would turn it into something racial.

After watching their activities for the last decade or so, the invasions into Gaza and the West bank, attacking Lebanon, killing innocent men women and children, infiltrating our Government and media, controlling our speech here, ruining the lives and careers of people here on our soil over something said? I don't know what to believe anymore. They aren't doing much to sustain their appearance of the downtrodden. The story and their actions don't parallel.

[Mikeg]

Some Jews argued over property and a few were robbed or attacked, and this is some sort of ethnic cleansing?

Helen Thomas stated that the Jews should return to where they came from, such as Poland. I offered the information in my previous post to show that upon their release from the concentration camps, the Polish Jews attempted to do exactly that. However, the "reception" they received in Kielce [[40 shot to death by local police and soldiers, hundreds beaten by unchecked civilians) received wide publicity throughout the Jewish communities in Poland. This pogrom was a pivotal moment and convinced the returning Polish Jews that it wasn't going to work, so they left Poland in increasing numbers in the summer and fall of 1946.

As a US citizen, Helen Thomas has the right to express her opinions and other citizens [[including her employer), have the same right to take issue with those comments.

Many people mistakenly think that any suppression of speech is a violation of the First Amendment, including that by a private citizen or corporation. While such a private action might be objectionable for ethical or social reasons, it isn't a First Amendment issue. The First Amendment only protects us from suppression of speech by the government. If you publicly take a stand on a controversial issue, you need to be ready to withstand any resulting criticism and consequences.

It's too bad that Helen had to "retire" in this way, but if her friends, Hearst and the White House Correspondents Association really cared about her, they would have privately convinced her to retire long ago and she could have gone out on top with a huge retirement party broadcast on CSPAN. Her best work as a journalist was years ago and it was clear that she had been riding on her laurels in recent years as a Hearst opinion columnist who was afforded all of the trappings of a White House Correspondent, while not even being a member of that organization.

[Sstashmoo]

Mike your hatred for Helen is apparent.

It's unfortunate we have a group in this country that elevates themselves above the citizenry, expects preferential treatment, condemnation for those that question them and protections from the same acts they commit against others. This isn't how democracies work.

I think Gibran grasps this whole thing best. Instead of having some civilized sensible discourse over Helen's words with her in attendance, it was shoot first and ask questions later. In other words, it's not open for debate, play along with the apartheid or get out.

[Mikeg]

Sstashmoo, your intolerance for the opinions of others is apparent, but can we quit with the infantile labeling of them as "haters"?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "it was clear that she had been riding on her laurels in recent years"

Sounds as though she has a very good grasp on the situation in the middle east. We've been writing the Israeli government a blank check for years, look what it got us. The public smear campaign against her common sense approach will only serve to prevent further discourse in the chambers where it matters, and fuel the fires of anti-Israel rhetoric. I love the Jews, but their government and supporters here in the US suck.

[Mikeg]

Helen Thomas on "hate":

"Now I wake up and ask myself, ‘Who do I hate today?’ " [[2002)
"Well, all presidents hate us." [[2008)

[gibran]

Remember folks ...we award people like Rush and Beck and half of Fox News [[Rove and Krauthammer) big money to perpetuate hate of other- be it immigrants, Muslims or Arabs...what we need is civilized debates on the topics that effect us..not yellow journalism.

I think we have lost integrity in journalism as of late..[[miss Russett)...because if you look at the owners on money trails...and ties to government and personal bias [[MUrdocH...his own son disagrees with his policies at times)...you would see why.

The conflict in the middle-east would play differently if we knew all sides of each event..and true peace would come... I don't think we even realize the Israelis and Palestinians fighting for a just peace because we are afraid to show it..because the hawks would go down..we would get tired of their manipulation... I predicted BIBI would be this and more..and I was right..his hate toward Palestinians come from is brothers death at their hands...and his goal of a greater Israel...but we wouldn't know that would we...
do the research ...connect the dots...you will see something differnt...but one thing is we are all God's People [[sorry)..and until we start acting like it [[those who have control) we will be doomed to perpetuate racist statements and thoughts...

[Patrick]

Helen Thomas stated that the Jews should return to where they came from, such as Poland. I offered the information in my previous post to show that upon their release from the concentration camps, the Polish Jews attempted to do exactly that. However, the "reception" they received in Kielce [[40 shot to death by local police and soldiers, hundreds beaten by unchecked civilians) received wide publicity throughout the Jewish communities in Poland. This pogrom was a pivotal moment and convinced the returning Polish Jews that it wasn't going to work, so they left Poland in increasing numbers in the summer and fall of 1946.

As a US citizen, Helen Thomas has the right to express her opinions and other citizens [[including her employer), have the same right to take issue with those comments.

Many people mistakenly think that any suppression of speech is a violation of the First Amendment, including that by a private citizen or corporation. While such a private action might be objectionable for ethical or social reasons, it isn't a First Amendment issue. The First Amendment only protects us from suppression of speech by the government. If you publicly take a stand on a controversial issue, you need to be ready to withstand any resulting criticism and consequences.

It's too bad that Helen had to "retire" in this way, but if her friends, Hearst and the White House Correspondents Association really cared about her, they would have privately convinced her to retire long ago and she could have gone out on top with a huge retirement party broadcast on CSPAN. Her best work as a journalist was years ago and it was clear that she had been riding on her laurels in recent years as a Hearst opinion columnist who was afforded all of the trappings of a White House Correspondent, while not even being a member of that organization.

Are you Jewish or Arab by any chance? That will shape your opinion on this matter greatly. People say that Helen's Middle Eastern background shaped her views....sure it did and we can say the same thing about any Jewish reporter who has the "exceptionalism" attitude beaten into his or her psyche from a very young age.

[Mikeg]

Are you Jewish or Arab by any chance?

Why do you guys always want to make it personal? Instead of discussing or rebutting the points I've made, the responses are about how I must be a "hater" or a Jew or an Arab.

[Sstashmoo]

Mike, I'm a middle of the road person on the Israeli-Muslim squabble we've been pulled in to the middle of. I can only call them like I see them. I don't see a strong Muslim lobby coercing our politicians hand in decision making towards Arab countries. Maybe there is, but nothing like AIPAC. We do not need to be picking sides, our stance should be one of neutrality and working with all parties to find some sort of common ground there. A good friend will tell you when you're wrong, The US is not a good friend of Israel in this context. Us signing off and excusing their every action, only puts them in a more precarious situation. Those that claim they care about Israel, need to call their hand when they commit acts that do not coincide with any sort of democracy. The only type of Government that can exist in Israel.

[Patrick]

Mike, I'm a middle of the road person on the Israeli-Muslim squabble we've been pulled in to the middle of. I can only call them like I see them. I don't see a strong Muslim lobby coercing our politicians hand in decision making towards Arab countries. Maybe there is, but nothing like AIPAC. We do not need to be picking sides, our stance should be one of neutrality and working with all parties to find some sort of common ground there. A good friend will tell you when you're wrong, The US is not a good friend of Israel in this context. Us signing off and excusing their every action, only puts them in a more precarious situation. Those that claim they care about Israel, need to call their hand when they commit acts that do not coincide with any sort of democracy. The only type of Government that can exist in Israel.

Pretty spot on with regards to US support for Israel. A lot of pro-Israel Bill Maher types use the excuse that Israel is the only democracy is the Middle East and that it serves as a wedge. a LOT of countries are the only democracies in their regions but we don''t blindly support them. What is America's real reason for being in the ME?

[gibran]

If a country is a democracy then proof is on them to deliver it to all citizens equally...if they lay claim on that then it doesn't matter what neighbors do only what they do...there in lies the problem...spin bad behavior by comparing...well...compare relationships with countries on the middle-east and the US over the last hundred years and you will see a dramatic shift over the decades..the people in the middle-east used to see America as a non colonial power and a friend...until they became else wise...

You can love people [[Jews and Arabs) and disagree with the politics...doesnt make you anti anything..especially if you can see pastthe conflict and see each other as people first...but as a person who cares about justice [[it is not blind) you should hold accountable countries that place themselves above accountability...sometimes tough love is what will save a country...not a blind eye..and a congress that is the best monies and influence [[AIPAC) can buy.

[oladub]

What's this all about? Helen Thomas got the boot for expressing her opinion. Here is a suburban soccer mom who records her visit from the FBI. They ask her questions about her involvement in support of Palastinians. I'm not anti-Israeli or pro-Palastinian but this was sort of a creepy ominous visit although the FBI people were very polite.

The FBI Knocked on My Door!