Abandon Detroit, Abandon Black America

[Retroit]

...if you cannot love Detroit, you cannot fully love Black people.

What a shame that this author considers Detroit an exemplification of what Black people have to offer. Of all the black people I know, most are not very proud of Detroit, whether they are from there or not. As daddeo mentioned, the trend is for blacks to disassociate themselves from Detroit. Black Detroiters were handed a beautiful city on a silver platter, but because of the social problems that plague many of them and that have yet to be fully dealt with, is was all for naught.

Fortunately, what failed in Detroit is being accomplished in the suburbs. Many blacks have successfully integrated into white culture and have reaped the benefits of associating with the other 85% of the population [[whites). The segregation of blacks in Detroit was very unfortunate, but time and reason will heal all wrongs.

As long as Detroit is considered a "black city" it will fail, and for the same reason that it would fail if it were considered a "white city". Segregation is passé.

[Bearinabox]

What a shame that this author considers Detroit an exemplification of what Black people have to offer. Of all the black people I know, most are not very proud of Detroit, whether they are from there or not. As daddeo mentioned, the trend is for blacks to disassociate themselves from Detroit. Black Detroiters were handed a beautiful city on a silver platter, but because of the social problems that plague many of them and that have yet to be fully dealt with, is was all for naught.

Fortunately, what failed in Detroit is being accomplished in the suburbs. Many blacks have successfully integrated into white culture and have reaped the benefits of associating with the other 85% of the population [[whites). The segregation of blacks in Detroit was very unfortunate, but time and reason will heal all wrongs.

As long as Detroit is considered a "black city" it will fail, and for the same reason that it would fail if it were considered a "white city". Segregation is passé.

Retroit, please don't post about this stuff anymore. You don't have a clue and aren't willing to learn, so please just stop.

[iheartthed]

Why not tell the truth?

Who's gonna bite the hand that feeds them?

[Hermod]

NYC is just a case in point. Cities declined all over the country in the 1960s. Something happened to the other great American cities in the 1980s and 1990s that didn't happen to Detroit. I don't get why there were riots all over the country in the mid to late 1960s, but somehow, white ethnic neighborhoods didn't empty out, and the exclusive neighborhoods within city limits remained just as exclusive. I just don't get what happened here.

As an older guy [[born 1939), let me give some perspective. Despite all of the mental masturbation here about "magnificent architecture" and "culture" Detroit was pretty much a gritty manufacturing city when whites were still moving into the city.

The neighborhoods of Detroit were "self contained" in that they contained their own stores, their own restaurants, and their own bars. Most guys when they wanted to go "out with the boys" went to their corner bar [[where everybody knows your name). Leaving the neighborhood for any purpose was an "expedition" to go downtown to buy winter coats, to go to the art museum, or to see a first run movie at the Fox or Cinerama.

Downtown was not the great magnet in Detroit that it was elsewhere. A much smaller portion of the workforce worked downtown. Once Hudsons developed Northland and Eastland there was even less reason to go downtown. A decision of move out to the suburbs was a function of commuting to work If you lived in a flat, a duplex, or a small bungalow in Detroit, that small suburban "ticky-tacky" ranch house looked pretty good and you weren't giving up anything in downtown that you couldn't live without.

There were three waves of immigrants in the 1940s. The first was the WWII displaced persons [[DP) from the Baltic States, Poland, Ukraine, and Germany who would rather go with the Germans to the west than remain under the thumb of the Russkies in the east. Even though most of them didn't speak English, they integrated into Detroit society quite easily. The other two waves were southern poor whites and poor blacks. Though they both spoke English, they did not integrate easily and both groups caused a significant change in Detroit society.

[SWMAP]

Attachment 6361

I disagree that downtown Detroit was never what downtown Chicago was. This image demonstrates that downtown Detroit, even until after WWII was a hugely vital commercial center.
I lived on a little street in Roseville then and my father worked in the Penobscot Building, the man across the street worked for the East Side Shopper in offices near Woodward and the man next door worked for an advertising agency, also downtown.

[Fury13]

Attachment 6361

I disagree that downtown Detroit was never what downtown Chicago was. This image demonstrates that downtown Detroit, even until after WWII was a hugely vital commercial center.

Downtown Detroit in the '50s WAS a vital commercial center, yet it still didn't come close to what Chicago or New York City had [[and still have).

As Hermod said, most Detroiters stuck to their neighborhoods and adjoining areas. Downtown wasn't the draw that it's considered to be now, especially in terms of entertainment. Sure, you'd come downtown to go to the art museum or main library; but most people who went to bars, clubs and even movies stuck to their neighborhoods. And the vast majority of people didn't go out to eat in the '50s. They had their meals at home.

[Retroit]

Retroit, please don't post about this stuff anymore. You don't have a clue and aren't willing to learn, so please just stop.

Please feel free to attempt to refute anything I've written.

[Bearinabox]

Please feel free to attempt to refute anything I've written.

Not in a banging-my-head-against-the-wall sort of mood today, sorry.

[pffft]

Nah you can't make a generalization like "the vast majority ate at home in the '50s" now, come on. Detroit was an entertainment hub, and downtown had the various chophouses [[London C.H., Carl's, ), all the bars and restaurants around Tiger Stadium, a slew of downtown eateries including the Brass Rail, the Pontchartrain Wine Cellars and Top of the Pontch...my parents used to go downtown all the time. The really elegant restaurants were mostly downtown, the suburbs had family restaurants and bars.

[iheartthed]

Downtown Detroit in the '50s WAS a vital commercial center, yet it still didn't come close to what Chicago or New York City had [[and still have).

As Hermod said, most Detroiters stuck to their neighborhoods and adjoining areas. Downtown wasn't the draw that it's considered to be now, especially in terms of entertainment. Sure, you'd come downtown to go to the art museum or main library; but most people who went to bars, clubs and even movies stuck to their neighborhoods. And the vast majority of people didn't go out to eat in the '50s. They had their meals at home.

I can't speak for Chicago, but I'm not so sure what the difference is between this description of Detroit and what NYC is today.

[313WX]

Nah you can't make a generalization like "the vast majority ate at home in the '50s" now, come on. Detroit was an entertainment hub, and downtown had the various chophouses [[London C.H., Carl's, ), all the bars and restaurants around Tiger Stadium, a slew of downtown eateries including the Brass Rail, the Pontchartrain Wine Cellars and Top of the Pontch...my parents used to go downtown all the time. The really elegant restaurants were mostly downtown, the suburbs had family restaurants and bars.

It was also a major financial hub, just as large as [[if not larger than) Chicago's.

The only thing is Chicago had several skyscraper booms since then and Detroit hasn't had one since the 1930s. Also, unlike Chicago's, our inner city neighborhoods were virtually wiped-out as tehy were considerably denser pre-1980. In addition, downtown Detroit was twice as large in area than it is today.

[Bearinabox]

Today it matters who has money and who has education not what your skin color is.

All of those things matter.

[Hermod]

I just added it up. Since 1939, I have had 32 addresses in 32 different hoods [[not counting two years in Vietnam). Of those 32 addresses, there are six where I feel that I could not live near today. Four of those six are in Detroit, one is in Petersburg, VA, and one is in Killeen, TX. Well, there are a couple that don't exist anymore. I am not saying that I would want to live in the particular house or apartment, but if circumstances dictated, I could live in the 26 other "hoods".

[mpf]

Cities declined all over the country in the 1960s. Something happened to the other great American cities in the 1980s and 1990s that didn't happen to Detroit. I don't get why there were riots all over the country in the mid to late 1960s, but somehow, white ethnic neighborhoods didn't empty out, and the exclusive neighborhoods within city limits remained just as exclusive. I just don't get what happened here.

Agree totally, it was not rioting. Has LA [[R. King riot) emptied out? Nope. We push unpleasant memories out of our minds in a spell, nobody could retain sanity otherwise.
I still think it's jobs/money. Hundreds of thousands have moved to Vegas in the last 10-15 years...it's like Detroit circa 1947!! There are/were jobs there, and they pay good! Now, they have the highest foreclosure rate. It's a real 1-industry town.
Some say that's what detroit was, I say no. Everything was made, not just cars. Resource extraction, manufacturing, and agriculture, the source of all wealth. The ones who could afford to 'upgrade' themselves in say, 1955 Detroit, moved to the burbs, no? There's your flight, away from a gritty city to a nicer place.

[English]

^ Well, maybe Michael Moore was right after all. Detroit and SE Michigan was ground zero for the deindustrialization -- and the de-fanging/de-clawing - of the United States.

I've also heard that Henry Ford's influence didn't help things either. Wasn't he a bit of a pastoralist at heart?

[mpf]

H. Ford, left the city to build the rouge complex, what, like 1915?
said, "we shall solve the problems of the city by leaving it". Dunno what problems he saw. Anyway, rouge is still close enough, easy drive to get to work there. Same with Dearborn, highland park. Where do the employees of rouge/ford live? $64,000 question, I don't have the answer.

[rid0617]

As an older guy [[born 1939), let me give some perspective. Despite all of the mental masturbation here about "magnificent architecture" and "culture" Detroit was pretty much a gritty manufacturing city when whites were still moving into the city.

The neighborhoods of Detroit were "self contained" in that they contained their own stores, their own restaurants, and their own bars. Most guys when they wanted to go "out with the boys" went to their corner bar [[where everybody knows your name). Leaving the neighborhood for any purpose was an "expedition" to go downtown to buy winter coats, to go to the art museum, or to see a first run movie at the Fox or Cinerama.

Downtown was not the great magnet in Detroit that it was elsewhere. A much smaller portion of the workforce worked downtown. Once Hudsons developed Northland and Eastland there was even less reason to go downtown. A decision of move out to the suburbs was a function of commuting to work If you lived in a flat, a duplex, or a small bungalow in Detroit, that small suburban "ticky-tacky" ranch house looked pretty good and you weren't giving up anything in downtown that you couldn't live without.

There were three waves of immigrants in the 1940s. The first was the WWII displaced persons [[DP) from the Baltic States, Poland, Ukraine, and Germany who would rather go with the Germans to the west than remain under the thumb of the Russkies in the east. Even though most of them didn't speak English, they integrated into Detroit society quite easily. The other two waves were southern poor whites and poor blacks. Though they both spoke English, they did not integrate easily and both groups caused a significant change in Detroit society.

I remember my mother saying in the 40s and 50s Detroit was a dirty city full of soot and everything having black soot on it if it sat too long. Typical industrial city.

[rid0617]

From what I understand from my mother Detroit has always been full of hate no matter what the race. Her [[polish) and her family constantly criticized the jews. The Germans thought they were better than the polish. Sounds like more of the same, only the faces have changed.

[Hermod]

Detroit was not a "dense city" when compared to Manhatten. Detroit did not have large numbers of apartment buildings or row houses. Detroit consisted mostly of small single family houses and "income flats" with a residence upstairs that could be rented out while the owner and his family lived downstairs. Many single people did not have apartments, they were "roomers" who rented a room [[or half a room) from people with extra bedrooms.

The depression further hit Detroit. Young people got married, but had to live with one or the other set of parents because of economics. Then the war came. There was massive industrial expansion in the Detroit area [[Warren, Willow Run) to feed the war machine. Workers flocked to Detroit primarily from the south. Temporary housing to include quonsets, trailers, and hastily built "projects" were put up and people packed into them. Lots of money was being made, but because of rationing, it couldn't be spent.

Postwar, the sixteen years of pent up demands from the depression [[lack of money) and the war [[rationing) were being satisfied. There was no post war recession [[first one hit in 1954) because of this pent up demand and available money. The vacant lots in the city were quickly filled in. Factories in older, functionally obsolete buildings eyed the industrial sites north of 8 mile. People looking for a home eyed the little 1200-1300 ranch houses north of 8 Mile [[they even had 1-1/2 or 2 bathrooms in those houses!!!).

A lot of the migration out of the city had nothing really to do with blacks. When my father's factory moved from Milwaukee and Russell to Warren, he wanted to move out of the city. The only black face that I had ever seen in our neighborhood was an old ragpicker with a horse or mule drawn cart who roamed the alleys salvaging stuff people threw out. In ten years of schooling in Detroit, I never saw a black face, not even a janitor. You only came into contact with blacks when you went downtown. It was only later that the migration turned into a racial issue.

[Ravine]

Hermod, your short essays, on this topic, are interesting and enlightening. Thanks for sharing.
Sometimes, on internet forums, the shared information & knowledge is greatly outweighed by the opinion [[an imbalance for which I am occasionally responsible.)
You, of course, have the extra benefit of being able to personally recall some stuff which most of us cannot.

[Michigan]

One thing in the comments:


I've only been by East St. Louis on the interstate, but I don't think New Orleans will like being compared to it. If we're talking about French cities, St. Louis is the one that has Mardi Gras, not East St. Louis. Either that, or she means that all are majority black cities, but she leaves out Atlanta and a few other cities. Or she means cities that have declined, but New Orleans still seems to have pretty good tourism [[though maybe not to the extent that it had pre-Katrina). I think she means these three are majority black cities that have been oppressed by the government, but there are other cities she could have included.

I don't think New Orleans would appreciate being compared to East St. Louis.

Many of the other comments are just too stupid and racist for words.

Ahh, the crux of the matter. Detroit, East Saint Louis, Saint Louis, et cetera will never prevail as long as the people living there think that they are being oppressed by some outside force.Take responsibility for the place you live. Do not blame others for your problems.

[Bearinabox]

I know you're just trolling, but so many people actually think this way that this merits a serious response:

Ahh, the crux of the matter. Detroit, East Saint Louis, Saint Louis, et cetera will never prevail as long as the people living there think that they are being oppressed by some outside force.Take responsibility for the place you live. Do not blame others for your problems.

They aren't my problems. I didn't segregate the city, and later the metro, with deed restrictions and redlining. I didn't make Detroit a dumping ground for the impoverished, the homeless, the drug-addicted, and the mentally ill. I didn't set up the transit system for failure by making it rely on inadequate and unreliable revenue streams, thus cutting off a third of city residents from reliable access to productive employment. I didn't turn my back on all these issues for decade after decade and let them fester, while playing petty us-against-them politics back and forth across 8 Mile because it played well with my base.

I think it's important to recognize cause and effect, and I don't think that in any way discourages people from working to improve their community. If anything, it encourages them not to give up, because if you accept that Detroit is only messed up because Detroiters want it that way, then the only rational solution is to run far away and not look back, and we certainly will never "prevail" as long as that's what people keep doing. "Take responsibility" is never bad advice, but lack of responsibility is not what got us here, and it will take more than responsibility to get us out of it.

[iheartthed]

Detroit was not a "dense city" when compared to Manhatten. Detroit did not have large numbers of apartment buildings or row houses. Detroit consisted mostly of small single family houses and "income flats" with a residence upstairs that could be rented out while the owner and his family lived downstairs. Many single people did not have apartments, they were "roomers" who rented a room [[or half a room) from people with extra bedrooms.

The depression further hit Detroit. Young people got married, but had to live with one or the other set of parents because of economics. Then the war came. There was massive industrial expansion in the Detroit area [[Warren, Willow Run) to feed the war machine. Workers flocked to Detroit primarily from the south. Temporary housing to include quonsets, trailers, and hastily built "projects" were put up and people packed into them. Lots of money was being made, but because of rationing, it couldn't be spent.

Postwar, the sixteen years of pent up demands from the depression [[lack of money) and the war [[rationing) were being satisfied. There was no post war recession [[first one hit in 1954) because of this pent up demand and available money. The vacant lots in the city were quickly filled in. Factories in older, functionally obsolete buildings eyed the industrial sites north of 8 mile. People looking for a home eyed the little 1200-1300 ranch houses north of 8 Mile [[they even had 1-1/2 or 2 bathrooms in those houses!!!).

A lot of the migration out of the city had nothing really to do with blacks. When my father's factory moved from Milwaukee and Russell to Warren, he wanted to move out of the city. The only black face that I had ever seen in our neighborhood was an old ragpicker with a horse or mule drawn cart who roamed the alleys salvaging stuff people threw out. In ten years of schooling in Detroit, I never saw a black face, not even a janitor. You only came into contact with blacks when you went downtown. It was only later that the migration turned into a racial issue.

Manhattan is not its own city. I'm not sure why you are trying to compare Manhattan to the city of Detroit.

But the truth of the matter is that Detroit once had a lot of very dense neighborhoods. In 1950, pretty much every neighborhood inside or immediately surrounding the Grand Blvd loop had a population density of at least 20,000 people/sq. mi. Some neighborhoods had densities approaching 70,000 people/ sq. mi.*, which is the average density of present day Manhattan**, FYI. It is those same dense neighborhoods at the core from which the city lost most of its residents over the past 6 decades, while the neighborhoods outside of the Blvd loop have largely the same population numbers that they did 60 years ago.

*Curiously, nearly all of the Detroit neighborhoods in 1950 with the Manhattan like densities now have freeways going right through them.

**Manhattan is about 600,000 residents off of its peak population in 1920s. But tenements are illegal now, so the island will most likely never ever get that dense again.

ETA link: http://www.cus.wayne.edu/content/map...popdensity.pdf

[Hermod]

I know you're just trolling, but so many people actually think this way that this merits a serious response:

They aren't my problems. I didn't segregate the city, and later the metro, with deed restrictions and redlining. I didn't make Detroit a dumping ground for the impoverished, the homeless, the drug-addicted, and the mentally ill. I didn't set up the transit system for failure by making it rely on inadequate and unreliable revenue streams, thus cutting off a third of city residents from reliable access to productive employment. I didn't turn my back on all these issues for decade after decade and let them fester, while playing petty us-against-them politics back and forth across 8 Mile because it played well with my base.

I think it's important to recognize cause and effect, and I don't think that in any way discourages people from working to improve their community. If anything, it encourages them not to give up, because if you accept that Detroit is only messed up because Detroiters want it that way, then the only rational solution is to run far away and not look back, and we certainly will never "prevail" as long as that's what people keep doing. "Take responsibility" is never bad advice, but lack of responsibility is not what got us here, and it will take more than responsibility to get us out of it.

Bear, back when Detroit had all the revenue base, Detroit had the best schools in the state. Detroit also had a comprehensive rail transit system. Detroit didn't share these assets with the counties. The counties and townships struggled along with revenue streams eked out from low yield farmland. Now that the counties have obtained some tax yielding assets, Detroit is screaming that it is the duty of the counties to subsidize Detroit.

I worked for the City of Troy back in 1959, when Troy had absolutely nothing except a lot of empty fields and gas stations and general stores at some of the major intersections. The Troy Historical Museum at Wattles [[17 mile) and Livernois was all of the city offices and administration. The Department of Public Works operated out of a large unheated Quonset hut. Many of the major roads [[Wattles, Square Lake) were still unpaved. All of the roads were two lane. There was one bus [[Martin Bus Lines) that went from Rochester to Big Beaver to Royal Oak.

[Bearinabox]

Bear, back when Detroit had all the revenue base, Detroit had the best schools in the state. Detroit also had a comprehensive rail transit system. Detroit didn't share these assets with the counties. The counties and townships struggled along with revenue streams eked out from low yield farmland. Now that the counties have obtained some tax yielding assets, Detroit is screaming that it is the duty of the counties to subsidize Detroit.

I worked for the City of Troy back in 1959, when Troy had absolutely nothing except a lot of empty fields and gas stations and general stores at some of the major intersections. The Troy Historical Museum at Wattles [[17 mile) and Livernois was all of the city offices and administration. The Department of Public Works operated out of a large unheated Quonset hut. Many of the major roads [[Wattles, Square Lake) were still unpaved. All of the roads were two lane. There was one bus [[Martin Bus Lines) that went from Rochester to Big Beaver to Royal Oak.

I don't think "the counties have obtained some tax-yielding assets" is an accurate description of what happened. What we've done is to separate the assets and the liabilities, and make Detroit proper [[along with a few other communities) a dumping ground for the liabilities. The suburbs are only able to flourish as they have because all the problems [[problems which arise to some extent in every metro area, and are so much worse here because nobody with any power is particularly interested in solving them) are in Detroit. Expecting Detroit to do as well with all the problems of the metro area as Oakland County does with all the wealth is unrealistic, and blaming or crediting the residents of each community with the conditions that exist there completely ignores the political dynamic of this region.

Further, I'm not saying that it's "the duty of the counties to subsidize Detroit." I'm saying that our region as a whole is failing, and a large part of that is due to our toxic political climate and unwillingness to confront our issues. I think we've reached the functional limit of segregation as the solution to our social problems, and if we're going to actually try to address them instead of just blocking them out of our physical and psychological landscapes, the whole metro area needs to come together and work on comprehensive solutions. This does not mean "throw suburban tax money at Detroit's kleptocracy," and it's unfortunate that so many people interpret it this way. It's in everyone's best interest to solve these problems, and it can't happen unless everyone is involved.