Article: Black Flight Hits Detroit

[English]

I'm soooooo confused. Do we really want to start using race to label our restaurants? Shouldn't we be moving away from seeing everything in terms of race?

We are talking about cultures here, so there should be no problem.

[fryar]

This must be completely generational...

Aw dude, come on. I have read your posts about living in UT before setting off for AA in 2005. I think I'm like 5 years older than you. I mean, I may be old, but not that old.

Anyway, you got the wrong idea about me, and I apologize for even straying there and possibly being hurtful, which I hope I was not. I'm just wondering what restaurants or kinds of food she was talking about. Fishbone's? If not, by all means, shoot that down, fire away, I'm eager to learn.

It's along these lines: Since she was probably living quite close to the city, ie CBD, I think we may have eaten at the same places. I for one used to enjoy a lazy Saturday's brunch at the Breakfast House. Not only did they serve Eggs Benedict, strikingly rare in the city, but they had a delightful stuffed french toast that was eminently sharable and made for an excellent communal desert. I have read that they recently closed down, sadly enough. If I enjoyed a meal of butter chicken, I would like to know that this is understood to be Indian food, perhaps of the South Indian variety[[?). Similarly, can I go looking for things like that stuffed french toast in some subset of Black restaurants? If so, it would be nice to know the subset, I do have some skepticism that it would identify itself as a black restaurant rather than the subset.

If they reopen the breakfast house, by all means go. It's awesome.

[DetBill]

It sadly has gotten to the point that if you live in Detroit, you really need to do your homework where your going to live to be safe and not throw away every dollar you have ever saved in declining home value.. There still are areas that are quite good .. my area Lafayette Park certainly is, our building is a great value [[ 1300 Lafayette ) is certainly worth looking at. Good values, stable, very safe for you and your car and lots of places that are very walkable. The townhouses across the street are a very nice ground floor alternative.

[English]

Aw dude, come on. I have read your posts about living in UT before setting off for AA in 2005. I think I'm like 5 years older than you. I mean, I may be old, but not that old.

Anyway, you got the wrong idea about me, and I apologize for even straying there and possibly being hurtful, which I hope I was not. I'm just wondering what restaurants or kinds of food she was talking about. Fishbone's? If not, by all means, shoot that down, fire away, I'm eager to learn.

I wasn't offended at all, and didn't intend to give offense. I usually don't take conversations on DYes with me when I close the browser, which may be to my detriment. If you were offended, I sincerely apologize.

[fryar]

Not really. I was caught a little unprepared by what I took as your impression that I must be a baby boomer, but I probably should have added a smiley to my "Aw dude..." line to clarify that I was being a little bit facetious. All's well, no worries.

[Retroit]

We are talking about cultures here, so there should be no problem.

Many people had no problem with this:


...but it still doesn't seem right to me.

[Bearinabox]

[sehender1]

This was a fascinating story, and a really interesting discussion...
The Freep edit page has a campaign this year called 'D' Diaries that's focused on these kinds of challenges, basic livability issues, and possible solutions.. OUr first installment was about a family that just couldn't take it anymore, and left: http://www.freep.com/article/2010042...eaving-Detroit
There was also a piece about Detroiters who choose to stay, and what obstacles they face:http://www.freep.com/article/2010051...ty-to-the-city
http://www.freep.com/article/2010051...opulation-loss

We've had others about the city's violence, about education, and other topics..
By year's end, we hope to have a good, strong body of work about what it's like to live in this city right now, and an actionable list of solutions..

[iheartthed]

You aren't that stupid.

Okay, maybe I was wrong.

[fryar]

Many people had no problem with this:


...but it still doesn't seem right to me.

English already made the point that our vocabulary doesn't properly distinguish between that and a cultural reference, such as in the case of cuisine. That's not what she meant, and not having read the article, I'm perfectly happy to accept that that's not a different version of what was meant by "black" restaurants. I do think there must be terminology that is more expressive; for instance, you ever hear of Sylvia's black restaurant? Nope, because it's Sylvia's Soul Food restaurant.

[iheartthed]

English already made the point that our vocabulary doesn't properly distinguish between that and a cultural reference, such as in the case of cuisine. That's not what she meant, and not having read the article, I'm perfectly happy to accept that that's not a different version of what was meant by "black" restaurants. I do think there must be terminology that is more expressive; for instance, you ever hear of Sylvia's black restaurant? Nope, because it's Sylvia's Soul Food restaurant.

I think some of you are making the mistake of trying to read "black people" as the logical opposite of "white people". It's not. "Black people" is no more the logical opposite of "white people" than "Asian people" or "Hispanic people" is the opposite of "white people".

When speaking about Americans, "black people" is generally used as a cultural identifier for Americans of African descent who have ancestors that were owned as slaves in the Americas. In recent years, due to globalization and new migration patterns, this term has been expanded to mean everyone of sub-Saharan African descent. But since non-slave descended blacks make up such a small percentage of African Americans, "black people" is still generally assumed to mean slave descendant in the context of Americans. When someone wants to make the distinction of non-slave black they will be more specific by saying "West Indian", or "African", or "Nigerian", etc. Likewise, when someone is saying "black culture", they are speaking about the general cultural traits shared by the descendants of American slaves.

Now, why can't you eat at a white restaurant? Well, first "white people" is a much, much broader term than "black people". For two reasons, it just doesn't make sense to try to label something as white. First, how do you define what a white restaurant is that would make sense to everyone? Would you limit it to Irish pubs? French restaurants? German biergartens? Greek? Italian? All of these sub-cultures of "white" are distinct enough in our cognition as Americans for it to make sense to label them according to their country of origin.

Second, white is default for American. Everything that isn't specifically some specific subset American culture [[e.g. Latino American) is automatically white. It's the same as how black defaults to slave descendants, instead of defaulting to say... Nigerians.

I hope that my explanation is clear enough so that this conversation can now be put to rest.

[fryar]

The discipline of economics is a case in point.
Now that I have gotten in the last word, I see no problem in ending this thread.

[Thames]

All I took from the lady’s comment was that she liked the fact that were more “black restaurants� and she used the term “mainstream black restaurants�. She didn’t say black owned.

Right or wrong, I equated “black restaurant� with “soul food restaurant�. And by “mainstream� I thought she meant that restaurants in the area were offering what would once be considered only available at a black [[soul food) restaurant.

I had absolutely no problem with that. So what? She used the word “black�. I thought I got the gist of what she said until I started reading this thread.

Is it really that complicated?

[Retroit]

All I took from the lady’s comment was that she liked the fact that were more “black restaurants� and she used the term “mainstream black restaurants�. She didn’t say black owned.

Right or wrong, I equated “black restaurant� with “soul food restaurant�. And by “mainstream� I thought she meant that restaurants in the area were offering what would once be considered only available at a black [[soul food) restaurant.

I had absolutely no problem with that. So what? She used the word “black�. I thought I got the gist of what she said until I started reading this thread.

Is it really that complicated?

The term "soul food restaurant" has long been an acceptable and accurate descriptor for these types of restaurants. If a person, black or white, wants soul food, they know where to go. By using the term "black restaurant", it implies something other than food, namely that skin color is of greater importance than the menu.

Suppose a white visitor was inquiring about restaurants in the area. Would they be more inclined to patronize a "soul food" restaurant or a "black" restaurant.

[Retroit]

...it just doesn't make sense to try to label something as white. First, how do you define what a white restaurant is that would make sense to everyone? Would you limit it to Irish pubs? French restaurants? German biergartens? Greek? Italian?

I feel the same way about the term "black restaurant". How do you define it? Soul food? Jamaican? Ethiopian? It seems to me that we should use the most accurate descriptor instead of relying upon some vague conception of whether "black" means descendant of slave or some broader concept.

[Bearinabox]

Suppose a white visitor was inquiring about restaurants in the area. Would they be more inclined to patronize a "soul food" restaurant or a "black" restaurant.

So people shouldn't use the phrase "black restaurant" because it makes you uncomfortable?

[Bearinabox]

I feel the same way about the term "black restaurant". How do you define it? Soul food? Jamaican? Ethiopian? It seems to me that we should use the most accurate descriptor instead of relying upon some vague conception of whether "black" means descendant of slave or some broader concept.

You're the only one who has any trouble with the concept, and it's because you're being deliberately obtuse to make a point about how society is just so unfair to white people.

[iheartthed]

I feel the same way about the term "black restaurant". How do you define it? Soul food? Jamaican? Ethiopian? It seems to me that we should use the most accurate descriptor instead of relying upon some vague conception of whether "black" means descendant of slave or some broader concept.

I already explained that.

When speaking about Americans, "black people" is generally used as a cultural identifier for Americans of African descent who have ancestors that were owned as slaves in the Americas. In recent years, due to globalization and new migration patterns, this term has been expanded to mean everyone of sub-Saharan African descent. But since non-slave descended blacks make up such a small percentage of African Americans, "black people" is still generally assumed to mean slave descendant in the context of Americans. When someone wants to make the distinction of non-slave black they will be more specific by saying "West Indian", or "African", or "Nigerian", etc. Likewise, when someone is saying "black culture", they are speaking about the general cultural traits shared by the descendants of American slaves.

[Retroit]

So people shouldn't use the phrase "black restaurant" because it makes you uncomfortable?

You can pretend that white people don't feel uncomfortable going to places designated as "black", but the lack of white presence in much of Detroit proves otherwise. Why would you want to alienate 85% of your potential customer base?

Would you feel comfortable if a country club designated itself as "white"? How about a "white" church, "white" bank, or "white" retail store? If I'm not mistaken, these institutions originated out of white culture.

I'm suggesting that we move beyond skin color as a classification. "Soul food" is more than adequate.

[Detroitnerd]

I'm suggesting that we move beyond skin color as a classification.

Mighty white of you.

[Danny]

Black flight from Detroit has been happening for generations. As you stated; 'nothing new'.

Actually Black flight from Detroit has happen since the late 1970s. A prime example of early Detroit Black flight the trailing of the organized Jewish Communities from Detroit's Northwest Side from 1960s to 1980s. Blacks followed them all to Oak Park, Southfield and Lathrup Village and all they up to West Bloomfield TWP.

Black flight from Detroit has been happening due to the scrupulous real estate practices since the 1960s to the present. A prime example of it is when real estate brokers, banks and mortages companies started to sell homes to blacks more in Redford TWP. Harper Woods and Eastpointe from the 1990s to the present. This is cause more whites to move out fast and lose property values.


WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET.

It seen it happen

In memoriam: Neda Agha Soltan

[daddeeo]

I hear you brother.
Neda git outa here fast.

[Retroit]

Black flight from Detroit has been happening due to the scrupulous real estate practices since the 1960s to the present. A prime example of it is when real estate brokers, banks and mortages companies started to sell homes to blacks more in Redford TWP. Harper Woods and Eastpointe from the 1990s to the present. This is cause more whites to move out fast and lose property values.

The falling property values can be attributed to the housing market crash, not to racial migrations. Many of whites living in these areas were elderly, who have either passed away or moved into nursing homes, etc. Their white children moved out to the outer suburbs long before black immigration.

It would be inaccurate to imply that home values are falling because blacks are moving in. [[This is one of the unscrupulous practices formerly used by banks/mortgage companies.) The demand for suburban housing for ex-Detroiters may in fact be inflating the housing prices in these areas.

[Thames]

When speaking about Americans, "black people" is generally used as a cultural identifier for Americans of African descent who have ancestors that were owned as slaves in the Americas.

Maybe in your world, but not in mine. Black people mean just that to me, that they are black.

Consider Max, his mother is Jamaican and his father is French. He moved here as a teen, from France. He is not African American, but yeah, he is a black person.

Now consider Hossen. He is an Arab Nigerian. He is African, but he is not black.

Then there is Rona. She is a black woman that moved to the States from Jamaica. She adopted a child from Nigeria, who happens to be black.

These are a small examples of people I communicate with often. I know of too many variables, so I just can't make that connection.

The term "soul food restaurant" has long been an acceptable and accurate descriptor for these types of restaurants. If a person, black or white, wants soul food, they know where to go. By using the term "black restaurant", it implies something other than food, namely that skin color is of greater importance than the menu.

Suppose a white visitor was inquiring about restaurants in the area. Would they be more inclined to patronize a "soul food" restaurant or a "black" restaurant.

I don’t use the term “black restaurant�, but I didn’t see anything sinister when she used it in the context of which she did. I didn’t get my knickers in a bunch because she used the word “black� to describe a restaurant, instead of “the more long acceptable�, and “more than adequate descriptor�, “soul food�.

I'm suggesting that we move beyond skin color as a classification.

It’s okay to say the word “black�. Everybody, on the count three say it… ready…1…2 [[deep breath)…3! �black�. Now on the count of three, say “black people�. Ready? 1…2…3…�black people�. That wasn’t so hard was it?

[iheartthed]

Maybe in your world, but not in mine. Black people mean just that to me, that they are black.

Good. for. you.