Article: Black Flight Hits Detroit

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 06:48 AM

Indeed what an article. At the risk of sounding corny I was nearly at tears reading it. My father sold life insurance door to door in that area in the 60's and 70's and if you lived there you'd made the big time re. real estate and community... this was right at the time of the heroin introduction. What it was - was beautiful. I recall driving thru the Boston Edison area as a treat as a kid.

Now look at this! I mean the woman TRIED to do and bring something to that community and was basically kicked in the butt and burn down for her efforts. Like I have said I don't care "what" folks stand behind which podium, wearing what and saying what, or promising "what"! UNTIL CRIME IS FULLY ADDRESSED PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO LEAVE! And the people who are leaving for the most part are the people we need to stay. Tax payers.

I'm not too, too far from that area and thankfully live in a shared dwelling with lots of folks/ family coming and going -- someone always home with the required requisite number of pit bulls, security measures etc.

This article points out that a fact I've long known and as you state: single homes are "exquisitely vulnerable" and watched [[by that special neighborhood "watch"). So, as the working stiff [[or stiffs) goes off to work, their home is summarily broken into as a default action by those who choose to take the un-earned from the productive.

Thus, I would absolutely NOT live in a single home in Detroit. Not at this time.

Home invasions are really bad in that area. Those with the big homes are considered "fair game 'chumps'" perceived to have something to steal so the justification goes. And there is no buffer. That area drops off to "beyond thunderdom" really bad like the end of a steep cliff like parts of EEV does.

From New Center we used to joke that Euclid was the Berlin wall between ok living and the forbidden zone and Clairmont has been a problem of some time. Now it's all zigg-gazzed bad, in and out one street to another. Thus why those silly cheap condos on Woodward and Lothrop with those extra-low poor security windows are not doing well.

Community policing would be my first response as a solution. But as more people leave who would be inclined to engage and invest in such I am wondering if it is feasible. And once an area starts to have every other house abandoned the crime problem is made worse.

Originally Posted by evergreen

What an article! Forty years ago, my parents contemplated purchasing a house in the Boston-Edison neighborhood, looking for more space. But they were too familiar with the area to do so. In the late 60's, the surrounding area was flooded with heroin which in turn created a huge guerilla army of drug addicts who engaged in an unrelenting war against private property. Single family detached dwellings are exquisitely vulnerable to break-ins and you never rest easy in a home once you've been burglarized. The sense of violation is enormous. Plus, the Boston-Edison community has no buffer zone, it drops pretty quickly into a longstanding ghetto which has now completely disintegrated. Stay on Woodrow Wilson northward just past this area and you are in an urban prairie; the destruction is almost complete. [[By the way, be alert in making this journey, the last time I was in that area I was almost caught in an armed confrontation involving some very beefy gentlemen who appeared to be guarding a house and a driver who was waving a gun barrel outside of his window - this was in the daytime.)

I remember the bubble of the early 2000's in that area and was struck by the naivete of the folks who were purchasing those huge homes, which can be quite costly to maintain, in an area that didn't have a future decades ago. I feel badly that these urban pioneers got burned in this process. These are exactly the sort of folks Detroit desperately needs, but somehow in Detroit the bad guys just keep overwhelming the good people.

And I admit I don't know the solution.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 07:01 AM

Yeah, I hear that. The only problem with some gated community areas is that it just get's too weird to live walled off, prison-like knowing that just outside of your gate ALL HELL IS WAITING... home living is about community too. I don't need a daily olympic sprint to my door when I get out of my car ready to pole vault to get into my own gated dwelling. Recall Grayhaven was suppose to be like that. Then the criminals scaled the gates too and we see that a mess that became....

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Evergreen makes an excellent point about the vulnerability of single family detached houses. If you often leave the house empty, you increase the likelihood of a burglary in any area, but in a neighborhood where there is a lot of crime anyway the incidence is greatly increased. Good neighbors and a security patrol are a help, but you can't count on them seeing everything. Dogs are good too, but they aren't much help when you are on vacation.

To my way of thinking this is one of the big attractions of living in an apartment/condo/coop building with security. Detroit could use more of those. I really don't like the idea of gated communities, but given the circumstances maybe some areas could go that way too.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 07:24 AM

Hah! I know that area well. That "THING" on Clairmont and the Lodge can hardly even be called a liquor store. It was horrid... and for sure helped in the deterioration factor...

I've lived in the general area radius [[having at one point lived very close to there right off of 12th street) for more than 25 years and have only been in that thing maybe 5 times. It is closed now for some reason... anyone know why? Good riddance! You'd take your life in your hands to even pull into its parking lot.

One story for why that store lasted so long with so little effort of curtailing the goings on its property, was due to that giant mega 3 story outdoor board on their property. They were raking in tons for having the billboard [[yes, when a billboard is within on your property the outdoor advertising company pays a use fee).

I am talking about that huge board which can be seen from the Lodge. It often bears the mega-millions rate.

I noticed the store has been closed about 6 months now...

Originally Posted by Chub

I'm really sorry to hear that n7hn. The most recent nightmare I keep having is me being in my Detroit house watching people steal my hand built wood privacy fence, while smashing my raspberry bush that I had planted along the fence. In my dream, all I could do was stand there and watch as all I had done was taken and destroyed. In reality, my privacy fence was actually stolen after I sold my house and the people I sold it too had foreclosed on it. As it sits today, I believe my back yard is wide open and a lot of the regulars from the liquor store hang out shooting up in my back yard. I always felt that the liquor store at Clairmount and the Lodge hurt our block of Atkinson severely; even before the economy tanked.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 07:30 AM

Yeah, with basically one kind of clientele. I stopped going in the about a decade ago.

Originally Posted by softailrider

I don't understand why that store closed, it was always busy.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 07:32 AM

Good times indeed. These must have been some of the "entertainment" you were afforded to see from the Herman Keifer building. Joy indeed. There was so much broken glass in the parking lot of that er-hm "likka' store" the cement sparkled at night. A real piss, beer and bullets place. Ugh.

Originally Posted by Chub

The store was busy with people stealing from it, doing drug deals in it, and pretty much everything else you can think of. I'll never forget the day the owners wife shot and killed a crackhead that somehow snuck in the back door and was attacking her behind the bullet proof glass wall. I'll also never forget the day I was sitting in my upstairs office of my house and just happen to be looking out my back window, just as a gunman started shooting into a crowd of people loitering in front of the store. I doubt that even made the local newscast that night. Yep, good times!

**Patrick** · June-06-10, 07:36 AM

Total gating is not an answer but blocking off some streets can solve a lot of headaches....and create new ones.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 07:37 AM

You should be able to choose what ever place or foot print size home you can afford... but in many areas like this in Detroit, you best think twice! There are many beautiful brick two and three family flats were people are attempting to stay with multiple people/ families sometimes owners and renter together, yet the amenities of a house somewhat. It's hard to go it alone in the D.

Originally Posted by English

I can only speak for myself, but I love to garden, to sit in my backyard and chat with my neighbors, and to have friends over for my barbecues, Christmas parties, and birthday shindigs. It's nice to not have anyone living above me or below me, and nice to unload the car without a lot of hassle [[pulling up to the front door or dock, using a cart, etc.) Even just running out to the car to grab the cell if you forgot it takes less than a minute when you've got your own private entrance and a driveway, parking or garage near it.

All of those things are easiest to do if you live in either a single family home or in certain condos/townhomes.

**Rockin' Best** · June-06-10, 07:39 AM

Boston-Edison is such a heartbreaker. The better homes there are just astounding. I look at the real estate listings and wish that things were better. But, as people have brought up, the neighborhood has many defense challenges. Nice houses generally have nicer things to steal. My single family house was in "Copper Canyon" way east on Chandler Park Dr. It was empty during the day while we were at work. We were never touched, luckily. But again, we had cops living all around us...

**Roq** · June-06-10, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I am curious. Can you tell us why you absolutely require a yard and a detached house? I completely understand wanting one, and there are beautiful houses in Detroit, but I can't think of many reasons for needing one.

Sure. One reason is I have 2 dogs and I need a fenced in yard for them [[or just the yard that I can fence in myself).
Just a note: these aren't dogs that are going to scare criminals so I don't include them in factoring safety.

Another reason is as English mentions, I love to flower garden and want a little bit of yard to work in.

I don't have school age children, so I don't care about the school district.

**Roq** · June-06-10, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I don't need a daily olympic sprint to my door when I get out of my car ready to pole vault to get into my own gated dwelling.

Ok, Zacha, the visual I got from that description made me smile

You make some great points though; I want to feel somewhat comfortable where I choose to live.

**karl jr.** · June-06-10, 08:24 AM

I can't wait to get out of Detroit. I pray My wife and dogs make it without what this person endured. 54 years and numerous b&e's & death, 2 neighborhoods wipeout before my eyes. I am done.

DC48080 · June-06-10, 08:37 AM

In a discussion in another thread, about two weeks ago, a certain person stated that people leaving the city are cowards.

http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=5709

See post #21

She called people leaving "cowards", "gutless runners" and "mindless rats".

And as far too often happens on this forum, the charge was made by some that people who leave are racists. I wonder if those who made that accusation would apply it to Miss Barham. Was she, a black woman, racist for leaving Detroit?

Nobody, be they black, white or purple wants to put up with the crap that Miss Barham had to endure. No rational person can blame her or anyone else for wanting to live in safety.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 09:52 AM

Hmmn, I recall all that and my position remains the same: Detroiter's have to right relocated if desiring to do so -- without an "approval" voucher or imposed feeling of guilt, though it is indeed sad to have to leave. It's also sad to have to buy a coffin, or a call to the fire or police department. I feel this way doubly so, especially after hearing of Ms. Barham's story... indeed it is hard to stay motivated. And I've worked too hard for my few possessions to have them taken so callously as a daily default behavior. Not to mention safety... and freedom to move where you want to have the quality of life you desire for yourself and family.

Originally Posted by DC48080

In a discussion in another thread, about two weeks ago, a certain person stated that people leaving the city are cowards.

http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=5709

See post #21

She called people leaving "cowards", "gutless runners" and "mindless rats".

And as far too often happens on this forum, the charge was made by some that people who leave are racists. I wonder if those who made that accusation would apply it to Miss Barham. Was she, a black woman, racist for leaving Detroit?

Nobody, be they black, white or purple wants to put up with the crap that Miss Barham had to endure. No rational person can blame her or anyone else for wanting to live in safety.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 09:57 AM

Gotta laugh to keep from crying : ) The vision I had of doing ME that was funny to me too. LOL! Go for the "gold" to get in your house and lock the door behind you

! Whew!

Originally Posted by Roq

Ok, Zacha, the visual I got from that description made me smile

You make some great points though; I want to feel somewhat comfortable where I choose to live.

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I don't need a daily Olympic sprint to my door when I get out of my car ready to pole vault to get into my own gated dwelling.

**English** · June-06-10, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by DC48080

In a discussion in another thread, about two weeks ago, a certain person stated that people leaving the city are cowards.

http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=5709

See post #21

She called people leaving "cowards", "gutless runners" and "mindless rats".

And as far too often happens on this forum, the charge was made by some that people who leave are racists. I wonder if those who made that accusation would apply it to Miss Barham. Was she, a black woman, racist for leaving Detroit?

Nobody, be they black, white or purple wants to put up with the crap that Miss Barham had to endure. No rational person can blame her or anyone else for wanting to live in safety.

A single individual can't stand up against the horde unless they have superpowers or are the hero of a comic book. You'd almost need a group to band together.

I hate to say it, but my family stayed in a very marginal neighborhood Detroit until '08 thanks to barbed wire fences, alarm services, and by last decade, a surveillance camera system. Unbeknownst to me until adulthood, we also had a mini-arsenal that wasn't only used for hunting, every adult man in the fam was a military veteran or on the police force, and every woman knew how to shoot.

Needless to say, no one is a fan of me moving back into the city by myself. I have zero support. One friend even said, "My answer would be different if you had a boyfriend or husband who could take care of his business if trouble came."

I just left in 2005. Have things gotten that bad?

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 11:02 AM

Coming from A2 it will be different... Things are crazy and a woman for sure is vulnerable it as we see from the Barham article. I would NOT recommend a busy, professional female to relocate back into Detroit in a "single" home until the crime level declines!

And more women are arming themselves at minimal in their homes and other have CCWs. That's a personal choice. For sure someone should be checking in on you. Especially if you come and go at night and night is all winter after 6:00 PM.

I am gone for 12-14 hours some days and would have been cleaned out or worse many times where I in a single-dwelling home. My home is multi-unit large home with secure parking, pit bull dogs on premises 24/7; other security provisions and someone always home and my block is ok though hardly perfect.

Maybe try Midtown were there is a tiny percentage of gated parking [[otherwise your cars a victim "on-de'-regular"). Or at least a small garage. But you will pay for those amenities, like in the Park Shelton... nice but sky high, plus those are condos....

Try downtown but take care in which apartment there too. Word of mouth is the best recommendation. Some of the so-called nice high rent ones have the night time "guest" loud drama problem. And or folks propping open doors and weed smells. These folks will pay big rent for a few months then move on leaving drama in their wake.

You want a building with long standing tenant that have some sane standards of living.

The problem as I see it is that the division of the so-called "haves" "barely haves" vs. the perennial criminal "gimme" crowd [[and I DO NOT mean rich folk when I say "haves" - I mean working stiffs like me who must work two, three jobs just to make it going to school in the evenings etc.)

It's getting more and more delineated and peculiar. The "barely haves" are easy targets with their penchant for leaving their homes at regular predictable times, etc. Busy worker bees we are. LOL! And the fact that they may actually have some to steal is a draw to the criminal crowd too.

Crime of course is often between peeps that know each other... get that. However, the haves [[working stiffs) are being increasingly singled out by bold-faced criminal types full of justification supplanted with a legal system that rewards their behavior.

Remember, Jennie let out all the non-violent criminals - out of the prisons and woomp-there-it-is... they are robbing and stealing along with the new recruits.

Originally Posted by English

A single individual can't stand up against the horde unless they have superpowers or are the hero of a comic book. You'd almost need a group to band together.

I hate to say it, but my family stayed in a very marginal neighborhood Detroit until '08 thanks to barbed wire fences, alarm services, and by last decade, a surveillance camera system. Unbeknownst to me until adulthood, we also had a mini-arsenal that wasn't only used for hunting, every adult man in the fam was a military veteran or on the police force, and every woman knew how to shoot.

Needless to say, no one is a fan of me moving back into the city by myself. I have zero support. One friend even said, "My answer would be different if you had a boyfriend or husband who could take care of his business if trouble came."

I just left in 2005. Have things gotten that bad?

DC48080 · June-06-10, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by English

Needless to say, no one is a fan of me moving back into the city by myself. I have zero support. One friend even said, "My answer would be different if you had a boyfriend or husband who could take care of his business if trouble came."

I just left in 2005. Have things gotten that bad?

Well you have the right to live wherever you choose, and have the means to live. Just as others have the right to live outside of Detroit if they so desire. Nobody should denegrate anyone because of where they decide to make their home.

I hope things go well for you and I hope for your safety and well being. Hopefully you are in posesson of some of that "mini arsenal" that you spoke of.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 11:25 AM

Indeed. The ultimate resolution and deterrent towards someone entering your home when you are there.

Originally Posted by DC48080

I hope things go well for you and I hope for your safety and well being. Hopefully you are in posesson of some of that "mini arsenal" that you spoke of.

**pffft** · June-06-10, 11:37 AM

What is it that makes mothers and/or grandmothers tolerate adult males living with them with only criminal means of support?

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 11:44 AM

I've seen it again and again, the justification starts early often with a troubled teen. Often when it's the grandmother, the mother may be absent or estranged.

Indeed she has some responsibility for allowing this [[the repeated robbery and ultimate torching of Barhams home). Now where is she going to move when her house is next by someone else's grandson[[s)? Now she has an abandoned home next to her and all which that means.

She could have had a home owner next door someone to look out for her. The fire could have caught up her house too or he could have been killed setting the fire. Again too much justification "don't snitch" mentality kind of thing going on...

Outworking of that: high crime. Thus some are moving... leaving us to ourselves.

Originally Posted by pffft

What is it that makes mothers and/or grandmothers tolerate adult males living with them with only criminal means of support?

**English** · June-06-10, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Coming from A2 it will be different... Things are crazy and a woman for sure is vulnerable it as we see from the Barham article. I would NOT recommend a busy, professional female to relocate back into Detroit in a "single" home until the crime level declines!

And more women are arming themselves at minimal in their homes and other have CCWs. That's a personal choice. For sure someone should be checking in on you. Especially if you come and go at night and night is all winter after 6:00 PM.

I am gone for 12-14 hours some days and would have been cleaned out or worse many times where I in a single-dwelling home. My home is multi-unit large home with secure parking, pit bull dogs on premises 24/7; other security provisions and someone always home and my block is ok though hardly perfect.

Maybe try Midtown were there is a tiny percentage of gated parking [[otherwise your cars a victim "on-de'-regular"). Or at least a small garage. But you will pay for those amenities, like in the Park Shelton... nice but sky high, plus those are condos....

Try downtown but take care in which apartment there too. Word of mouth is the best recommendation. Some of the so-called nice high rent ones have the night time "guest" loud drama problem. And or folks propping open doors and weed smells. These folks will pay big rent for a few months then move on leaving drama in their wake.

You want a building with long standing tenant that have some sane standards of living.

The problem as I see it is that the division of the so-called "haves" "barely haves" vs. the perennial criminal "gimme" crowd [[and I DO NOT mean rich folk when I say "haves" - I mean working stiffs like me who must work two, three jobs just to make it going to school in the evenings etc.)

It's getting more and more delineated and peculiar. The "barely haves" are easy targets with their penchant for leaving their homes at regular predictable times, etc. Busy worker bees we are. LOL! And the fact that they may actually have some to steal is a draw to the criminal crowd too.

Crime of course is often between peeps that know each other... get that. However, the haves [[working stiffs) are being increasingly singled out by bold-faced criminal types full of justification supplanted with a legal system that rewards their behavior.

Remember, Jennie let out all the non-violent criminals - out of the prisons and woomp-there-it-is... they are robbing and stealing along with the new recruits.

Thanks for the advice. This is just crazy. I mean, seriously. It's like something out of a dystopian novel in real life.

**English** · June-06-10, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by pffft

What is it that makes mothers and/or grandmothers tolerate adult males living with them with only criminal means of support?

A strong mother-child bond, a higher standard of living [[even if ill-gotten), and having a man, any man, in the house... so that they don't end up like the lady in the article.

**Zacha341** · June-06-10, 12:08 PM

Yep, that is indeed the genesis of the problem.

Originally Posted by English

A strong mother-child bond, a higher standard of living [[even if ill-gotten), and having a man, any man, in the house... so that they don't end up like the lady in the article.

**pffft** · June-06-10, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by English

A strong mother-child bond, a higher standard of living [[even if ill-gotten), and having a man, any man, in the house... so that they don't end up like the lady in the article.

If that dynamic isn't somehow changed with the current/future generation of women, hiring 500 cops won't solve the problem.

**English** · June-06-10, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by pffft

If that dynamic isn't somehow changed with the current/future generation of women, hiring 500 cops won't solve the problem.

I know. It's tough. There are no easy answers that aren't controversial. The far left and the far right both have ideas, but there isn't the political will to do anything.

I just hate that because of the choices of some people, the rest of us have to suffer.