US Social Forum Detroit 2010

[BShea]

Exactly. Who drives an association with their own publisher unnecessarily into a fracas they can't possibly control? Either Crain's has enlisted a fool or there's been a mischievous identity theft here.

This is too unprofessional to even believe.

I will debate to my last breath anyone who advocates collectivism and/or communism where I live. I also will call out anti-capitalist/anti-business when I see it. My belief is that it's critically harmful to Detroit, which needs private-sector investment, not income redistribution or government handouts. And that's what is strongly being hinted at here. More than hinted at in some cases.

This is me talking as a resident of Detroit and an American, but what I've written about the USSF I stand by 100%. As a human being, I abhor communism and its ideological siblings, anarchism and collectivism. I'm an advocate for bolstering the business community as one of the solutions to Detroit's problems.

[maxx]

I haven't said that industry shouldn't be regulated and naked illegal behavior punished..

The problem is when the government does things like exempting the natural gas industry from most or all environmental laws. Legality loses all meaning.

. The fringe, right or left, isn't going to drive change or national debate. It has to come from the center. The fringe on both ends may have legit points, no doubt, but it remains the fringe.

It would be nice if the center would move a bit more to the left. This shift to the right has really added to the suffering of most people in this country.

[BShea]

@maxx: I agree completely that millions of loopholes must be closed, and lobbying should be curtailed. That absolutely is a problem and danger to the republic.

And we must remain a federal republic with free markets. No one will ever convince me otherwise. And while some of the -isms on the Left sound nice on paper, the reality of human nature makes them impossible and we should work within the basic economic and political systems we have.

This is the last I'm going to say on any of this. I have too much to do the rest of the week, and while I love debate [[even if it includes being called a murderer and told to fuck off), I need to spend time on other stuff. I've said my piece/peace. I'm an unapologetic anti-communist and pro-business, and I'm proud of it. If anyone wants to belittle that, by all means do so -- it's your right that was bought in blood.

And I hope the USSF comes back every year and engages in capitalism like it has this week. I'm all for dollars flowing in, and always appreciate a irony.

Night, folks.

[Gsgeorge]

The fringe, right or left, isn't going to drive change or national debate. It has to come from the center. The fringe on both ends may have legit points, no doubt, but it remains the fringe.

I agree with you here. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But really it does not behoove you to participate in trivial back-and-forth. You're a respected and well known writer in your field, and you're on here arguing with people on the internet who could, for all you know, be 16 years old. Take your thoughts to the paper, that's all.

[Roq]

"Here's the usual rundown at these sort of events: Vegans, minorities, housing activists, trustifarians, animal rights folks, labor activists, anti-globalization activists, anarkids, hippies, gender and orientation activists, communists, socialists, anarchists, union members, social justice advocates, lawyers, environmental justice advocates, small-media types, etc."

Just move the crowd over to Belle Isle and call it the DetroitYES! 2010 Picnic Reprise.

I wonder what category I would fall into...[[maybe that's best left unanswered)

[kenp]

"Here's the usual rundown at these sort of events: Vegans, minorities, housing activists, trustifarians, animal rights folks, labor activists, anti-globalization activists, anarkids, hippies, gender and orientation activists, communists, socialists, anarchists, union members, social justice advocates, lawyers, environmental justice advocates, small-media types, etc."

Thats funny Ravine, it reminds me of the line in Blazzing Saddles, but you forgot to end it with "and Methodists"

Why is this thread always on top, its turned into another Non Detroitish thread.
Bottom line is everyone has a right to the their opinion and beliefs and if their beliefs want to include 20,000 in Detroit all the better.

[Pam]

Why is this thread always on top

It's "pinned". [[Note the push pin symbol next to it.)

[maxx]

It's just not honest to repeat the idea that socialism in the US has to mean the violent overthrow of the government or the end of all businesses. Socialism also means cooperation rather than the "rugged individualism" that used to be touted as the American spirit. That individualism has turned into a distrust of one's neighbors and the law of the jungle mentality. Detroit already has fine examples of neighbors helping neighbors. It is hard to get a feeling of community in a city of thousands, but more needs to be done to counter the forces that seek to divide us.

[Ravine]

Roq, I was just being silly, trying to lighten the mood. But, since you asked, you would fall into the "rather attractive women who think they look like dorks" category.

Anyway, We are Ravine, and We don't lighten up, or chill out, unless We are goddam good & ready.
And, let Us be clear about some other aspects of Our nature, so as to heartlessly spoil, for any critics, the potential fun of telling Us about Ourself.
We are self-important, preachy, arrogant, judgmental, verbose and, on occasion, presumptuously paternal in tone.

Yeah. So, now that We have that out of the way, We will proceed with that which We came here to say.

I never enter into political discussions, here. I have my reasons. I didn't truly enter into the political, side-choosing part of this one, but, dove-at-heart that I may be, I did stick my hawk-like nose into it, and-- what a surprise!!-- I came to regret having done so.

I thought BShea had logged a fine post, in that he stated his case very solidly.
I still think so, but now I am queasy about having praised him for it; I did not foresee that he was going to lower himself so far as to repeatedly make snarky comments about how bad sweaty folks smell on a very hot, very humid, day. I would imagine that during whatever military engagement involved his exchanging rifle-fire with communists, some of his brothers-in-arms were also brothers-with-funky-armpits.
However, while I am disappointed to learn that BShea is willing to degrade his entire argument by tossing around trifling insults, I thought ORF was way out of line to make a crack about "murdering communists."

Y'know, back when Karl was a member of this forum, he dished out a lot of crap, but he took a lot of it, too.
I never involved myself in the circular, non-productive discussions of abortion, but I looked in on them.
It seemed, to me, that Karl was being pressed to accept something which-- in his view, and rightly or wrongly-- he saw as being murderous. Instead of being challenged on whether or not he should see it that way, he was attacked as though his agendum was anti-"women's rights."
I think any kind of moral high-ground is rather unreachable for anyone who presses another to accept something which the other sees as murder.
So, ORF, where are you, on that? Apparently, you see BShea as having been a Murderer of Communists, and you look upon that with abhorrence and scorn. Yet, when Karl, with abhorrence and scorn, looked upon that which he saw as murder and condemned it, you reacted to him as though he was something that you would hate to have stepped in on the sidewalk.

So, BShea, Oldredfordette, all of you [[and "all of you" includes Ravine,) Ask Not for Whom the Goose Tolls; It Also Tolls for the Gander.
Oh wait.

Goddamit.

[oldredfordette]

I'll say this once more. Mr. Shea made a boasting comment about dealing with communists at the point of a gun, correct? He was bragging about his "service". I repeat and restate it and I'm cowardly. So, Mr. BShea, proud anti communist, which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Ravine, Karl was anti-women's rights. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

I'm going back to the U.S. Social Forum again today and spend time with people who do not worship money and who think it's possible to change the world without hurting anyone, invading anywhere and who don't necessarily care too much what people think about their looks.

[kenp]

It's "pinned". [[Note the push pin symbol next to it.)

Thanks Pam, I kind of figured that out. Just wondered why its Pinned.

[Roq]

Roq, I was just being silly, trying to lighten the mood. But, since you asked, you would fall into the "rather attractive women who think they look like dorks" category.

Hehe...I knew that, I was just messing with you [[though I can understand based upon some post[[er)s here why you think you'd have to explain yourself...) and, aww, thanks for the compliment Ravine! Maybe you can make the next picnic - I'm sure there is a category for you..

[BShea]

I'll say this once more. Mr. Shea made a boasting comment about dealing with communists at the point of a gun, correct? He was bragging about his "service". I repeat and restate it and I'm cowardly. So, Mr. BShea, proud anti communist, which is it? You can't have it both ways.

I said sleazy, not cowardly. Someone else may have called you that. I'll leave it to you to scroll back and figure it out. Nor did I brag about my service. I simply said I have engaged communists [[mainly some sort of weird Marxist gang of militia thugs more interested in stealing U.N. food aid so they could hold sway over the population), and I'm proud to have done that.

Did you call me a murderer, or not? You zapped the original post after it was quickly called out by others. You have the right to call me that if you so wish, even if you have zero context of the history/circumstances of what I've done. Free speech is abused by people every day, and that's something we all must tolerate. What I say and write offends some, too.

So call me a murderer. You could trot out "baby killer" as well -- that's an old warhorse insult the Far Left hasn't trotted out in awhile. I wasn't yet born to experience getting spit on as the troops returning from Southeast Asia apparently did, so this will have to do for me.

[oldredfordette]

This is what you said:
Originally Posted by BShea
Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

I called you a murderer. I removed it after being chastised by Ravine [[whose opinion I care less and less about as this thread winds around). Oh well. I copped to what I said. Can't you?

It's a beautiful day. I'm going back to the Forum so I can be with people who are working to make positive change in this world.

[Ravine]

So call me a murderer. You could trot out "baby killer" as well -- that's an old warhorse insult the Far Left hasn't trotted out in awhile.

I don't know. Maybe that term is not fit for use as an insult. It depends. Are "women's rights" involved?

[jcole]

This is what you said:
Originally Posted by BShea
Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

I called you a murderer. I removed it after being chastised by Ravine [[whose opinion I care less and less about as this thread winds around). Oh well. I copped to what I said. Can't you?

It's a beautiful day. I'm going back to the Forum so I can be with people who are working to make positive change in this world.

I don't see anywhere in BShea's statement that he shot at, wounded or killed anyone. He said he engaged communists with a rifle. That could be that he pointed a gun at them. And that they ran.
How does that make him a murderer?
In addition, I don't think he, or any soldier, makes the requisite choice in combat that would label them a murderer.
And, by the way, I am a pacifist when it comes to war, but I am also grateful and appreciative to anyone who served in the armed forces for doing what I would not want to do and doing it without complaint.

[Islandman]

Curious as to what communists he "pointed" his gun at from 1992 up, given his age. He wasn't a Vietnam vet.

[jcole]

Curious as to what communists he "pointed" his gun at from 1992 up, given his age. He wasn't a Vietnam vet.

Perhaps Korea? Unless they pulled out the troops last night, we are still protecting the border along with the S. Koreans.

[BShea]

Curious as to what communists he "pointed" his gun at from 1992 up, given his age. He wasn't a Vietnam vet.

The criminal goons from Siad Barre's Somali National Front, who raised all sorts of hell for everyone in the south of that sad, pathetic nation. Kismayo, specifically, where they engaged the peacekeeping forces regularly -- including the Marine Expeditionary Force.

SNF was mainly Barre loyalists and some of the tribal factions loyal to him that had made up the old Somali national army before the place disintegrated. They wanted to recapture the capital, but couldn't and had smaller numbers than the main warlord militas there.

Barre was a Marxist-Leninist [[and a brutal thug whatever his ideology) and his Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party had run the show until collapsing into civil war -- sparking the doomed Western humanitarian intervention.

[jams]

I wonder how Bshea would have seen the American revolutionists in the 1770's if he were there?

I hope that this Forum is a catalyst to affect change in our society.

I find it funny, that I have grown tomatoes, herbs, and other produce for years in my garden.
Now, it is desirable.

Maybe a few ideas from this conference will take hold and make a change.

I hope so.

[Det_ard]

Bshea, thank you for your service. Also, fine job explaining why capitalism is preferred and the social forum is frankly, comical. Oldredfordette, shame on you for your attack on Bshea. He can handle it, but you come off looking even loonier than before. Go get all high on "social justice" before you slink back up I-75 to a bourgeois Royal Oak condo.

Capitalism has freed well over 500 million people from poverty in China and India in the last couple decades. What has anti-capitalism done relative to this? Nothing. The anti-capitalists can posture and lecture, but capitalists are the real agents of positive social change.

And the malarkey about wealth being fixed or zero-sum is laughable. Chart the wealth of the globe from 500 [[or any other number of) years ago to now. Is it flat? Clearly not. The "pie" is expanding, consistently. Wealth is created, wealth multiplies, prosperity flourishes if capitalism is permitted to function. If the social forum types were at all influential I'd be concerned about the negative effect they'd have on social well-being but fortunately virtually everyone recognizes they're a collection of impotent misfit wackadoodles.

[Islandman]

Thanks for the reply, BShea. I was indeed just curious as the DMZ is a horse of a different color, in my opinion [[jcole, sarcasm duly noted).

Looks like it the country ended up in shards just like Vietnam did, with no signs of letting up any time soon. While I concur that a thug married to any ideology is still a thug, I would sure hope our interdiction into the affairs of other countries would take a turn for the better. Apparently supplying countless monies, arms, etc. is not doing the trick.

Det_ard, I think the argument is that wealth cannot be infinite when the resources to create/maintain that wealth are not, especially when these resources [[namely our ecosystem) is put on the backburner, literally, in order to maintan that wealth.

[jams]

I remember when a just few people saw the Vietnam incursion as a travesty. It became a mainstream issue.

Bshea, make all the fun of this conference you wish, but change starts from small seeds.

[Ravine]

This is what you said:
Originally Posted by BShea
Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

I called you a murderer. I removed it after being chastised by Ravine [[whose opinion I care less and less about as this thread winds around). Oh well. I copped to what I said. Can't you?

It's a beautiful day. I'm going back to the Forum so I can be with people who are working to make positive change in this world.

Oldredfordette, I don't want you to care, or not care, about my opinion any more than I want to alienate you or offend you by sharply disagreeing with your "take" on this matter, but it sounds as though you have disregarded, and dismissed, my "take" without giving it any serious consideration.
So, what I'm sensing is that I have, indeed, alienated & offended you simply by disagreeing with you, which is doubly unfortunate given that it seems as though you never really took a look at what I was saying, anyway.
Which brings me directly back around to why I avoid political discussions. No productive exchange of viewpoints ever takes place; folks just holler out their opinions, embrace those who share them, and get goddam good & pissed off at the folks who don't share them.
If what happens here, on DY, is any indication of the discoursal climate of this so-called Social Forum, I'm glad I stayed away.
But then, I do a whole lot of Staying Away, these days.

[jams]

Which brings me directly back around to why I avoid political discussions. No productive exchange of viewpoints ever takes place

That is where I disagree, those "non-productive" political exchanges are how ideas are brought into fruition, Imagine a "community organizer" being elected into the presidency.