US Social Forum Detroit 2010

[iheartthed]

I don't have time to get into Econ 101, but you're confusing wealth with printing money. Not the same thing. The government doesn't create wealth. Printing money isn't creating wealth. It is a sure-fire way to spark massive inflation, as we'll be finding out in this country soon enough.

Wealth is NOT finite. Just because I have some does NOT mean you get nothing.

Well, it's not Econ 101, more like Physics 101.

[BShea]

Yes, because the planet Earth isn't some closed loop, it goes on forever and ever. In a world of infinite resources, everybody can become infinitely wealthy.

Oh, wait. That totally doesn't make sense. Sorry.

Again, to rely on the far more eloquent P.J. O'Rouke:

"Collectivism doesn't work because it's based on a faulty economic premise. There is no such thing as a person's "fair share" of wealth. The gross national product is not a pizza that must be carefully divided because if I get too many slices, you have to eat the box. The economy is expandable and, in any practical sense, limitless.


"Under collectivism, powers of determination rest with the entire citizenry instead of with the specific citizens. Individual decision-making is replaced by the political process. Suddenly, the system that elected the prom queen at your high school is in c harge of your whole life. Besides, individuals are smarter than groups, as anybody who is a member of a committee or of a large Irish family after six in the evening can tell you. The difference between individual intelligence and group intelligence is the difference between Harvard University and the Harvard University football team.



"Think of all the considerations that go into each decision you make: Is it ethical? Is it good in the long run? Who benefits? Who is harmed? What will it cost? Does it go with the couch? Now imagine a large group-imagine a very large group, say, 250 million people-trying to agree on every decision made by every person in the country. The result would be stupid, silly and hugely wasteful-in short, the result would be government"

"Your money does not cause my poverty. Refusal to believe this is at the bottom of most bad economic thinking."

[Detroitnerd]

Ah, yes. PJ O'Rourke. He's totally unbiased, right?

[BShea]

Ah, yes. PJ O'Rourke. He's totally unbiased, right?

Every human being is biased. It was Hunter Thompson that said the only things in journalism that are objective are box scores. He was right.

In O'Rourke's case, economic facts and history show that he's correct.

[BShea]

Bill Shea's concern about the smell of the paraders is the sort of preciosity and shallowness that sweeps social problems under the rug or into "shelters" and ghettoes and "free speech zones". I wonder how many of the paraders walked from New Orleans. I wonder how the marchers with Martin Luther King smelled at the end of their march.

http://www.ussf2010.org/node/68

" You know how you shield your movement from being defined by an alleged ‘minority of ultra-extremists?’ You purge the ultra-extremists."

If the Republican party today purged their extremists, there wouldn't be a Republican party.

"...In related forum developments, the notion of tolerance and solidarity appears to be fractured a bit: A consortium of pro-gay Arab groups is angry [[link) that the pro-Israel group Stand With Us has apparently been invited to USSF..."

Yes, you wouldn't have found such dissension in the Republican Party in the past. The National Conventions were little more than coronations of candidates while they sniggered at the messiness of Democratic conventions. And today party "discipline" in the GOP reminds one of the old USSR 's party where criticism of the party was not tolerated.

None of them walked from anywhere. And to equate this juvenile circus with the Civil Rights movement is grossly egotistical. Demands to free a convicted cop killer, to legalize weed and to make taxpayers pay for all college education is not the same as equal human/civil rights for blacks. Banging your little tin cups on the ground, demanding handouts, isn't even in the same galaxy as trying to secure basic human dignity. I'd wager than MLK had no use for anarchists, either.

Pointing out the lunatic fringe smells isn't shallow. It's simply further evidence that they're not serious people, and that the legitimate social, economic and other issues facing this country will have to be solved by the adults, not the people expressing solidarity with North Korea.

[Detroitnerd]

Every human being is biased. It was Hunter Thompson that said the only things in journalism that are objective are box scores. He was right.

C'mon. At least leave the idea that we all have a subjective reality to the left wing.

In O'Rourke's case, economic facts and history show that he's correct.

What? That collectivism doesn't work? Why do right-wing ideologue types always want to talk about outdated 19th century trends like collectivism? You see any Russian peasants around here?

Look at the system around us BShea. Pointless bloody wars with millions of casualties, a financial system gone haywire, ecological devastation, injustice, racism, a tremendous and growing gap in wealth, the evisceration of the middle class, a rising police state, unprecedented levels of people in prison, trillions of dollars for the rich when they fuck up, but if you're poor then it's all your fault and out on the street you go.

This is the reality. The system looks great on paper, but in reality it's a totally fucked-up system.

But here you are saying that the world is infinite [[WTF?) and that the real enemy are quaint efforts at mutual aid.

And then you lampoon others for being out of touch!

Some stones you got there, BShea.

[gnome]

Hey guys, as you might have guessed, I'm a republican and don't have much love for this so-called social Justice forum; however, I love detroit and when any group comes here to spend money we all benefit.

Even Crain's.

If the folks need a shower, so what. I sometimes can clear a room myself, if they are hypocrites and trust fund brats, so what. their money is green and in Detroit that should be the only color that matters.

A little march here or there is no skin off our noses. Water on a duck's back. Relax and enjoy our nice weather. Crack a beer or roll up a tight one. Summer is here. chill

[casscorridor]

I don't think anyone is objecting to them coming here and spending their money while they preach to each other. Spend away. Bang your little drums. But don't think for a moment that anyone in a position of power or influence will give this a second's serious thought.

These are not serious people. Or, they are certainly humorless and zealous in their causes, but they're the fringe. No one is seriously going to consider these people in the national discussion about our social issues. Demanding nationalization of General Motors and reparations for minorities ... please.

This is a bunch of teenage political babble. And no one watched the parade.

Hypocrite. Who is taking you seriously? Just because you have a stupid blog on the Crains website doesn't make you some kind of "legitimate" political commentator.

You are not a serious person. No one should take you seriously. You have absolutely no legitimacy in the DETROIT community. The Social Forum has MUCH more legitimacy within the community. Thousands of community members have showed up to participate and show their support, offering up their homes, giving away food and other resources, offering rides to the airport. Everyone has been incredibly friendly and are excited that there are so many people across the country fighting for change!

And no, the tea party people would NOT be as welcome. Maybe they wouldn't get beaten in the street, but they sure as hell would be given the evil stare and zero support from the community. News flash, this is Detroit, we actually have politics here, and most people are pretty far to the left, they know the logical end of capitalism is what Detroit has become. We aren't a bunch of jaded, valueless people. Just because they would spend money here doesn't mean they are welcome. The values and ideology of the tea party are what has destroyed Detroit, so why should we welcome them? Get a few bucks now, but then get fucked over once they are in power.

And just because the *current* power holders won't listen to the USSF, doesn't mean it isn't important or doesn't have legitimacy. The USSF is against the direction that our country is headed, so why should power holders listen? Most of them are against what the USSF stands for.

What tea party event can draw people of 20,000 people all backgrounds - every race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, geography, class and age? I'm pretty sure they are mostly a bunch of rich old white men, the old united states. The real united states, "the other America" is represented at the USSF. Remember that somewhere between 2030-2050 our country will be MAJORITY people of color. This scares the tea baggers to death.

"They take our jobs... dur durrr durr" ....

aren't you all retired anyway?

"GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MEDICARE!!!"

Okay....

[BShea]

I read that breathless babble that while playing "The Internationale" on my iPod, Casscorridor.

And as I said, Glenn Beck and the Tea Party are your ideological mirror image, but you have less legitimacy.

I won't be holding my breath for your revolution, comrade. But keep up the struggle against The Man. I'd recommend a little naval gazing ... or is it "self-criticism" that you call it [[before marching the apostates off to gulags and reeducation camps, like your heroes Che and Mao did).

[BShea]

North Korea? What does the USSF have to do with a wacko dictator that has absolutely no affinity for even Marxism [[which is an old and useless ideology). He just cares about maintaining his little private serfdom, with the help of the US embargo!! Absolutely nothing to do with socialism or communism other than name.

I showed you the quote from the WWP, so take it up with them and their youth group, FIST. They're participants at USSF and were well represented at your little parade.

Tell us some more why Detroit should be more like Havana. I'm all ears.

[sherryrazor]

Well said, Detroitnerd, my thoughts exactly..

Why would anybody want to go to the Social Forum?

Look all around us. We're in the middle of a foreclosure meltdown, and haven't even started to feel the beginning of the commercial foreclosure crisis that's on the way. Unemployment way up, with no strong job creation. Two major wars with illegal bombing of another country, perhaps two more on the way. Dwindling civil liberties, with government officials claiming they have the right to assassinate American citizens if they want to, or even to strip them of their rights and imprison them without trial. A million Americans in prison. No real future for most young people, no security for most of the elderly. A system that punishes you when you're poor and funnels trillions of dollars into the pockets of the wealthy.

By any stretch of the imagination, this system is a failure. Go to Washington, and you'll get the same-old answers from the same-old political hacks who've been running this same-old country into the ground for a generation. No fresh ideas there.

So, I'm not surprised that tens of thousands of people want to come to town to talk to many different people with many, many different ideas. And you shouldn't be either.

If the U.S. government didn't want communists, why has it spent the last 30 years trying to prove Karl Marx right?

[BShea]

So it is socialism that led to successful cities elsewhere? Because Detroit is the exception ... nowhere else is as bad as this city is right now ... L.A., New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, Kansas City ... none of those cities are anywhere nearly as wrecked as this city.

Detroit stumbled from the success that capitalism created here. Does anyone seriously think socialism or communism was going to create what was created in Detroit in the first half of the 20th century? Please.

Detroit's problem are myriad, but capitalism is one. Private investment and entrepreneurship, and the incentive to do both, are Detroit's salvation, however. And you can do that without harming people and groups.

This talk of socialism and communism is silly. It gets in the way of serious discussion of fixes and the future.

[Jimaz]

Wow. My estimation of Crain's just went down a few points. Not very professional at all.

[casscorridor]

This talk of socialism and communism is silly. It gets in the way of serious discussion of fixes and the future.

No, this is the debate we NEED to be having. Not capitalism vs. "socialism" or whatever that means, but capitalism vs. any alternative economic system that produces more desirable and humane outcomes.

Look at the empty factories not just here in Michigan but all across the country. We let China make everything when we could make it here. Why? Because labor is cheaper and easier to exploit in China. This makes perfect sense under the logic of the market. So we let factories and warehouses sit empty, and let willing hands to sit idle and let so many people's potential go unrecognized or even discovered.

Every person has a creative capacity and deserves an empowering job. But capitalism denies this right and sections off society into classes -- the 1% capitalist class which owns the factory, the 20% coordinator/managerial class which dominates creative and empowering tasks, while the 80% working-class which toils with boring, repetitive, or debilitating and onerous tasks all day. You are born into one of these classes, and you life is determined, to a large degree, by your respective class upbringing. Although you can change class, it is much easier to attain wealth if you are born into it, and much harder if you are not. Capitalism does not produce equal opportunities.

And even if everyone started at the same level, classes would still emerge from a market system because the market leads to something called snowballing inequality, were once someone accumulates wealth, it becomes much easier to reproduce that wealth. All markets work this way- capital and labor, and lead to increasing inequality over time. This is brutally apparent when looking at global numbers released this year by the UN on inequality -- 20% owns 80% of the wealth, while 50% owns only 1% of the wealth. Is this not something you morally object to?

You don't morally object to the extreme poverty just steps away from your Downtown home? You think they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

You think all of those devastated neighborhoods are a result of people's bad decisions? You think that the market or capitalism had nothing to do with it? You place the blame on them, you do this easily because you are so far away from real struggle, so removed, even though you are so geographically close.

Listen to the real stories that are being told at the USSF by ordinary people who have struggled their whole lives for a better life and a better future. Tell them that they should work harder, tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

[maxx]

RE: P.J. O' Rourke, erstwhile humorist

" Besides, individuals are smarter than groups, as anybody who is a member of a committee or of a large Irish family after six in the evening can tell you."

maxx: An individual in that family is no smarter than the group if they've all been drinking as O'Rourke implies.

" The difference between individual intelligence and group intelligence is the difference between Harvard University and the Harvard University football team. "

maxx: Riiiight, because Harvard profs never work together and Harvard really puts a lot into its football recruitment.


"Your money does not cause my poverty. "

maxx: It does if the Congress people you bought pass tax cuts that benefit you and not me.

[BShea]

Incentivize the corporate sector to keep jobs here. Simple as that. Human beings and corporations respond to incentives. Tax breaks, whatever. Let's have that discussion, not Marx vs. Keynes.

You cannot legislate personal economic fairness, and I've already posted points about why enforced egalitarianism is immoral. That leads directly to authoritarianism and tragedy far worse than what the industrialized Western democracies have seen.

"any alternative economic system that produces more desirable and humane outcomes"

OK, name me one.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights doesn't guarantee anything but the right to pursue happiness, with the remainder of what's in there being primarily a codification of limits on government.

You don't morally object to the extreme poverty just steps away from your Downtown home? You think they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

I absolutely object to any attempt by the state to seize my income and distribute it to people that did not earn it. What moral right does government or other people have to the money I earned? And I'm not talking about taxes to pay for roads and schools. I'm talking about the wealth redistribution you're hinting at.

You think all of those devastated neighborhoods are a result of people's bad decisions? You think that the market or capitalism had nothing to do with it?

Creative destruction. Only what replaced what was destroyed came elsewhere.

And there always, always, always will be a market and class system, no matter how much anyone rages against it. There has been since we were living in trees and caves. These are stone-cold economic facts. We can find better ways within human nature and human economics. Trying to legislate economic fairness has such a tragic history.

I always come back to what Adam Smith said: "“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

Self interest has been of great benefit to society.

And Smith believed in regulated commerce/markets and the role of government in providing safety nets, public works, etc. He favored regressive use taxes for public works, however, which wouldn't fly today.

[oldredfordette]

First of all, this is what BShea said, in his own words:
Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

So excuse me if I restated what he said, what he said very proudly. And Bailey, I seriously hope you don't kiss your mother with that mouth. Unless of course she's used to it.

Pam, the energy on the march was amazing. I was at the Willis staging area and there wasn't a person with a grin on their face. The weather was beautiful and as we walked along we could hear all the different music being played. I ran ahead to get some pictures and saw some amazing puppets and handmade signs. The black bandana kids are there, and maybe a corporate coffee chain could get a window broken, so what? It's not like they're stalking doctors and shooting them in cold blood like the beloved right wing. There hasn't been a single report of vandalism or violence that I've heard.

It was a lovely march [[not a parade) and there will be another in a half hour that I'm going to miss, dammit. I'm going back down there in about 20 minutes. Isn't it a lovely afternoon?

Come on down to the Social Forum. It will help your attitude and you'll have great admiration for America's engaged, intelligent and politically sophisticated youth.

[BShea]

First of all, this is what BShea said, in his own words:
Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

So excuse me if I restated what he said, what he said very proudly. And Bailey, I seriously hope you don't kiss your mother with that mouth. Unless of course she's used to it.

Pam, the energy on the march was amazing. I was at the Willis staging area and there wasn't a person with a grin on their face. The weather was beautiful and as we walked along we could hear all the different music being played. I ran ahead to get some pictures and saw some amazing puppets and handmade signs. The black bandana kids are there, and maybe a corporate coffee chain could get a window broken, so what? It's not like they're stalking doctors and shooting them in cold blood like the beloved right wing. There hasn't been a single report of vandalism or violence that I've heard.

It was a lovely march [[not a parade) and there will be another in a half hour that I'm going to miss, dammit. I'm going back down there in about 20 minutes. Isn't it a lovely afternoon?

Come on down to the Social Forum. It will help your attitude and you'll have great admiration for America's engaged, intelligent and politically sophisticated youth.

If you want to call me a murderer, that's your right and prerogative -- as sleazy as it may be. Fits right in with the destructive, divisive USSF mental/moral attitude and the its benign hatefulness. As I said, no different than the Tea Party.

"politically sophisticated youth" -- best line of the day, reeking of the bloviated, self-important elitism of the Far Left.

[bailey]

First of all, this is what BShea said, in his own words:
Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

So excuse me if I restated what he said, what he said very proudly. And Bailey, I seriously hope you don't kiss your mother with that mouth. Unless of course she's used to it.

You are repulsive and loathsome. It is quite a statement about the site's owner that calling a fellow poster and veteran a murderer is not grounds for banning. Just as a primer for the site's owner ....

Defamation per se exists if the communication is false and imputes a criminal offense See George v. Senate Democratic Fund, 2005 WL 102717 [[Mich. Ct. App. 2005); Pierson v. Ahern, 2005 WL 1685103 [[Mich. Ct. App. 2005).

If I were bshea, I'd be less forgiving and asking for a ip log right about now.

I don't know what is more offensive about you. your willful stupidity or the fact you are too cowardly to stand by your slanderous statement and are attempting some sort or equivocation. As if you didnt mean to say murderer.

[casscorridor]

Incentivize the corporate sector to keep jobs here. Simple as that. Human beings and corporations respond to incentives. Tax breaks, whatever. Let's have that discussion, not Marx vs. Keynes.

Human beings do respond to incentives, I agree. Capitalism gives people an incentive to be greedy, to be antisocial. I believe a better economic system will give incentives for cooperation, compassion, concern for people and the environment, for bettering the quality of life of all people, etc.

Yes, incentives for businesses do bring jobs in the short term. The film industry is a great example. But it's not a magic bullet.

You cannot legislate personal economic fairness, and I've already posted points about why enforced egalitarianism is immoral. That leads directly to authoritarianism and tragedy far worse than what the industrialized Western democracies have seen.

I'm proposing we change the the values of our economy, and the basic institutions of the economy. Currently they are -- private ownership over the means of production, hierarchical division of labor and market allocation of resources. I propose we develop new institutions that foster self-management, diversity, equity and solidarity while being as efficient as possible. Those are - Workers and consumers councils, balanced job complexes, remuneration according to effort and sacrifice and paticipatory planning.

"any alternative economic system that produces more desirable and humane outcomes"

OK, name me one.

Participatory Economics - google it. I just named the core institutions, but thats pretty meaningless unless you read up on them.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights doesn't guarantee anything but the right to pursue happiness, with the remainder of what's in there being primarily a codification of limits on government.

Purse happiness, but at the expense of others?

You don't morally object to the extreme poverty just steps away from your Downtown home? You think they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

I absolutely object to any attempt by the state to seize my income and distribute it to people that did not earn it. What moral right does government or other people have to the money I earned? And I'm not talking about taxes to pay for roads and schools. I'm talking about the wealth redistribution you're hinting at.

I never have proposed seizing individual wealth. I do however support seizing of productive property such as factories, because I am for the abolition of class and of the labor market. I support workers seizing control over their own workplaces. Let the old hags keep their money till their death, but we'll take their factories.

You think all of those devastated neighborhoods are a result of people's bad decisions? You think that the market or capitalism had nothing to do with it?

Creative destruction. Only what replaced what was destroyed came elsewhere.

And there always, always, always will be a market and class system, no matter how much anyone rages against it. There has been since we were living in trees and caves. These are stone-cold economic facts. We can find better ways within human nature and human economics. Trying to legislate economic fairness has such a tragic history.

no. class hierarchy developed sometime around the advent of agricultural society. no need to "legislate" when we can change the values and institutions of society

I always come back to what Adam Smith said: "“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

Self interest has been of great benefit to society.

And Smith believed in regulated commerce/markets and the role of government in providing safety nets, public works, etc. He favored regressive use taxes for public works, however, which wouldn't fly today.

Adam smith. Yes. 18th Century. That's just as crazy as quoting Marx. You have to remember that in Adam Smith's time capitalism was considered progressive, an positive alternative to feudalism and mercantilism.

Now we have reached another time when we need new ideas and a new system.

[maxx]

P.J. O'Rourke: Wealth is good when a lot of people have it, and wealth is good when just a few people have it.


maxx: Wealth is good for the few when only a few have it. People in banana republics would not agree with the latter half of your statement.

BShea: Self interest has been of great benefit to society.

maxx: But when you look at the environmental damage that is being done by huge factory farms, by the oil and coal industry, and other industries, we may have to admit that we have reached the limits of growth if everyone in this country is to have a decent standard of living and basic needs like clean water, clean air, and healthful food.

[Gsgeorge]

Walk away, Bill, just walk away. Your reputation is on the line here, buddy.

I got caught in Social Forum madness in my car on my way back to work from lunch at the Cass Cafe... Needless to say, after about three minutes of being stuck in traffic with all the aforementioned types whipping around hemp banners and showing off their unkempt armpits, I meandered my way through the DMC campus to the I-75 South service drive... then to REAL freedom... Where I am not reprimanded for buying coffee in a styrafoam cup or for driving a car every other once-in-a-while. Then I can ride my bike, make a compost pile, and hate on the man on my own time [[believe it or not, I do participate in all these activities, just not religiously).

Mom always said it best... "Everything in moderation."

[maxx]

And let's not forget the natural gas industry that is destroying people's water supply.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_621341.html

Kinda makes unshaved armpits look rather trivial, don't you think?

[BShea]

And let's not forget the natural gas industry that is destroying people's water supply.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_621341.html

Kinda makes unshaved armpits look rather trivial, don't you think?

I haven't said that industry shouldn't be regulated and naked illegal behavior punished. Negative incentives are appropriate, too. But state control of industry is no guarantee that stuff won't be dumped in the water supply. Incentives work for both private and public industry.

And the point of the armpits is that the parade was trivial - no one watched it and it's not taken seriously. The fringe, right or left, isn't going to drive change or national debate. It has to come from the center. The fringe on both ends may have legit points, no doubt, but it remains the fringe.

[Jimaz]

Walk away, Bill, just walk away. Your reputation is on the line here, buddy.

Exactly. Who drives an association with their own publisher unnecessarily into a fracas they can't possibly control? Either Crain's has enlisted a fool or there's been a mischievous identity theft here.

This is too unprofessional to even believe.