US Social Forum Detroit 2010

[oldredfordette]

Why are you arguing with this guy? Or bothering with Nolan Finley? Free market capitalism? Look around you. Their philosophy is part of the ugly old past, the past that brought us [[among other things) predatory lending and the BP murder of the Gulf of Mexico. They can only try to stand in the way of the future. They're done. Bye Bye!

The march kicks off at 3. See you there!

[Detroitnerd]

Speaking as a Detroit resident ...

Nolan Finley and I get some of the same USSF fan mail. We're both accused of being small-minded reactionary McCarthyite fascists for pointing out what USSF is [[based on its own information).
...
I'm all for 20,000 people coming to town to spend money, be it a Left or Right gathering. That said, I would be delighted to read on here the explosion of anger, insults and shock if a similar Right-wing event came to town.

Classic BShea. I find it very interesting you're able to critique the people at an event that hasn't happened yet, and whom you haven't spoke with yet. This is just a bunch of hot air, or, as you call it, "main-steam America."

[BShea]

Why are you arguing with this guy? Or bothering with Nolan Finley? Free market capitalism? Look around you. Their philosophy is part of the ugly old past, the past that brought us [[among other things) predatory lending and the BP murder of the Gulf of Mexico. They can only try to stand in the way of the future. They're done. Bye Bye!

The march kicks off at 3. See you there!

Or look around Havana. Or North Korea. Or Hanoi. Or any of the other Leftist nations than are pathetic failures. And it's exactly the sort of economic and political ideology being proposed by many USSF people that resulted in those tragic places.

And Sweden? Capitalist, and growing more so. It became successful by being socialists that didn't practice much socialism.

Wealth is good. A lawyer making $500,000 will pay $100,000 at least in taxes that will go to roads, schools, police, etc. Community organizers making nothing will contribute nothing in that vein.

Just because I make a million dollars doesn't mean you can't make money. Wealth is endless.

To quote P.J. O'Rouke, who puts it far more eloquently than I, "Egalitarianism is worse than stupid, it's immoral."

"The point is that the real alternative to the power of the rich is not power of the poor. It's just plain power. If we don't want the world's wealth to be controlled by people with money, then the alternative is to have the world's wealth controlled by people with guns. And governments have guns. They have quite a few guns. Now, in theory, it is fine that the government has guns and that the guns control money because, in theory, the mugger puts his pistol down and picks up a ballot and he steals from multinational corporations instead of from you. But the reality is obviously quite different. The track record of collectivist societies in the 20th century speaks entirely for itself. Thirty million dead from closing the wealth gap in Chinese agriculture; 6 million dead from closing the commerce gap in the Ukraine; and the deaths go on and on."

"Such are the products of envy and fear, which brings me to the third mainspring of egalitarianism: greed. And by greed I don't mean the simple lust for material objects. I am concerned about the greed for position and pride, for what nowadays is called self-esteem. I wonder how many of the people who profess to believe in the leveling ideas of collectivism and egalitarianism really just believe that they themselves are good for nothing. I mean, how many leftists are animated by a quite reasonable self-loathing? In their hearts they know that they are not going to become scholars or inventors or industrialists or even ordinary good kind people. So they need a way to achieve that smugness for which the left is so justifiably famous. They need a way to achieve self-esteem without merit. Well, there is politics. In an egalitarian world everything will be controlled by politics, and politics requires no merit."

"We have to kill ideas like the wealth gap. The world doesn't need to be thinking about the wealth gap; the world needs to be thinking about wealth. Wealth is good. Everybody knows that about his own wealth. Wealth improves your life; it improves your family's life. You invest in wise and worthwhile things, and you help your friends and neighbors. Your life would get better if you got rich, and the lives of all the people around you would get better if you got rich. Your wealth is good. So why isn't everybody else's wealth good, too? I don't get it. Wealth is good when a lot of people have it, and wealth is good when just a few people have it. And that is because money is a tool, nothing more. I mean, you can't eat money, you can't sleep with it, you can't wear it as underwear very comfortably. And wealth, accumulation of money, is a bunch of tools. Now when one person, a carpenter for instance, has a bunch of tools, we don't say to him, "You have too many tools. You should give some of your saws and drills and chisels to the guy who is cooking the omelets." We don't try to close the tool gap"

[BShea]

Classic BShea. I find it very interesting you're able to critique the people at an event that hasn't happened yet, and whom you haven't spoke with yet. This is just a bunch of hot air, or, as you call it, "main-steam America."

Um, did you look at the list of 1,000+ sessions? Or the list or organizers? They speak for themselves. But if you want to nuance their positions, including some advocating the full nationalization of G.M. and Chrysler, go right ahead. I'm all ears.

I am disappointed they canceled the puppetry workshop.

[kenp]

I look forward to the group coming to Detroit and spending their cash. Or is that my cash? Anyway good luck and enjoy.

[Detroitnerd]

Um, did you look at the list of 1,000+ sessions? Or the list or organizers? They speak for themselves. But if you want to nuance their positions, including some advocating the full nationalization of G.M. and Chrysler, go right ahead. I'm all ears.

I am disappointed they canceled the puppetry workshop.

Haha. Oh, you obviously know everything already. No reason to actually engage anybody you disagree with. Sit back and hurl your complaints. It is so sad that all wisdom must die with you.

[BShea]

Haha. Oh, you obviously know everything already. No reason to actually engage anybody you disagree with. Sit back and hurl your complaints. It is so sad that all wisdom must die with you.

Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

I'm more than happy to go toe to toe with Marxists and other intellectually shabby types.

[BShea]

This was posted on that other Detroit online forum that can't be mentioned here, and it's a great take:

"You know how you shield your movement from being defined by an alleged "minority of ultra-extremists"? You purge the ultra-extremists. The UAW was a potent force after WWII because Walter Reuther purged the Stalinists. The Goldwater/Reagen conservative movement was viable because Buckley purged the John Birch Society. This isn't that difficult to understand. So why won't the Social Forum or Tea Party purge the lunatics? Because no one likes talking to an empty room."

"Nolan Finley's column was awful. Not because it did injustice to the Social Forum. It was pretty spot-on about the Social Forum. Finley was wrong to conflate Barack Obama's practical brand of community organizing with a rabble of self-righteous malcontents who can't cross the street without first holding a soviet to establish class conscious protocols for street crossing."

"To think either "movement" represents a critical mass capable of forcing constructive change is to confess one's ignorance. The Social Forum-ites high water mark was 1948 [[before most were born), when Henry Wallace won 6% of the vote. And the Tea Party looks like it will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this fall."

"... we should get serious about fixing those problems. But we can't get serious about that while giving credence to idiots who want to debate the merits of Marx v. Keynes or that Senator Robert Bennett [[R-UT) is some kind of evil socialist."

[Detroitnerd]

Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

I'm more than happy to go toe to toe with Marxists and other intellectually shabby types.

At least you're entertaining, BShea. I'll give you that. But what a burden it must be to be so filled with knowledge, so aware of what's right and wrong, that one needn't ever have an open mind or be curious about anything! Truly awesome.

[bartock]

This was posted on that other Detroit online forum that can't be mentioned here, and it's a great take:

"You know how you shield your movement from being defined by an alleged "minority of ultra-extremists"? You purge the ultra-extremists. The UAW was a potent force after WWII because Walter Reuther purged the Stalinists. The Goldwater/Reagen conservative movement was viable because Buckley purged the John Birch Society. This isn't that difficult to understand. So why won't the Social Forum or Tea Party purge the lunatics? Because no one likes talking to an empty room."

"Nolan Finley's column was awful. Not because it did injustice to the Social Forum. It was pretty spot-on about the Social Forum. Finley was wrong to conflate Barack Obama's practical brand of community organizing with a rabble of self-righteous malcontents who can't cross the street without first holding a soviet to establish class conscious protocols for street crossing."

"To think either "movement" represents a critical mass capable of forcing constructive change is to confess one's ignorance. The Social Forum-ites high water mark was 1948 [[before most were born), when Henry Wallace won 6% of the vote. And the Tea Party looks like it will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this fall."

"... we should get serious about fixing those problems. But we can't get serious about that while giving credence to idiots who want to debate the merits of Marx v. Keynes or that Senator Robert Bennett [[R-UT) is some kind of evil socialist."

Whoever wrote this made terrific points. I don't always agree with Nolan Finley, but usually see some points in his columns and thought that he was out of hand with attempting to draw intimate connections between the Social Forum and Obama. Reminded me of Leonard Pitts, albeit with a different agenda.

[lincoln8740]

Classic BShea. I find it very interesting you're able to critique the people at an event that hasn't happened yet, and whom you haven't spoke with yet. This is just a bunch of hot air, or, as you call it, "main-steam America."

Classice Detroitnerd
Bashing a post for offering an opinion and failing to give his own.

Could you please enlighten us as to what kind of people you think will be attending this "forum"?

After driving around detroit all day, I think Bshea and finley's appraisal is spot on but would you care to share your thoughts--for once?

[BShea]

At least you're entertaining, BShea. I'll give you that. But what a burden it must be to be so filled with knowledge, so aware of what's right and wrong, that one needn't ever have an open mind or be curious about anything! Truly awesome.

I'll be the first to admit I'm closed-minded on communism. I've seen it in action.

That said, I've said on numerous occasions that there are legitimate, interesting sessions planned for USSF. But they're lost in the silly noise from the communists, Marxists, anarchists and other characters that should be belittled by any reasonable person.

But they're free to come bang their drums, toot their horns, sing, march, protest, etc. I'm all for freedom of expression ... and the freedom to belittle nonsense.

[Detroitnerd]

I'll be the first to admit I'm closed-minded on communism. I've seen it in action.

Or shot at it from a distance.

That said, I've said on numerous occasions that there are legitimate, interesting sessions planned for USSF. But they're lost in the silly noise from the communists, Marxists, anarchists and other characters that should be belittled by any reasonable person.

We should have strong parties of all varieties in this country: Communist, fascist, secessionist, Marxist, Troskyist, Birchite, etc. I like countries like Italy where they have so many parties that just two can't connive on the worst. Nothing wrong with that if you believe in freedom of speech.

As for the anarchist party, that sounds confusing. But, don't forget that we have thousands of anarchists in this country who labor every day to make the world a less authoritarian place, and I applaud any good constructive efforts in that direction.

Take a good, long listen compadre. That's what an open-minded person sounds like.

But they're free to come bang their drums, toot their horns, sing, march, protest, etc. I'm all for freedom of expression ... and the freedom to belittle nonsense.

As we all are. But freedom of speech only works when citizens, who want to be part of that fabled, fully informed electorate, open their ears and their hearts.

[Detroitnerd]

Classice Detroitnerd
Bashing a post for offering an opinion and failing to give his own.

Could you please enlighten us as to what kind of people you think will be attending this "forum"?

After driving around detroit all day, I think Bshea and finley's appraisal is spot on but would you care to share your thoughts--for once?

Hi, Lincoln. Nice to see you're still posting. I'm sorry you think I'm just bashing. Why don't you follow the conversation and see what crops up? You might even contribute to the discussion.

[lincoln8740]

"Classice Detroitnerd
Bashing a post for offering an opinion and failing to give his own.

Could you please enlighten us as to what kind of people you think will be attending this "forum"?

After driving around detroit all day, I think Bshea and finley's appraisal is spot on but would you care to share your thoughts--for once?"

Hi, Lincoln. Nice to see you're still posting. I'm sorry you think I'm just bashing. Why don't you follow the conversation and see what crops up? You might even contribute to the discussion.

can't even answer a simple question--what a pity

[Pam]

Oh, I've engaged communists in the past. For a time, with a rifle.

I'm more than happy to go toe to toe with Marxists and other intellectually shabby types.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ynY5NvYsZY

[Detroitnerd]

can't even answer a simple question--what a pity

What's your question? What kind of people will show up for the forum? Is that the $64,000 question? I'm sorry, Lincoln. Amid the accusations of bashing and all, I must have missed that. I haven't dropped in yet, so I don't know who's there. But if you want to know, why don't you come on down? I'm sure all the restaurants in the area will be jammed with them. Doesn't that sound exciting?

[BShea]

Or shot at it from a distance.

The distance was less than a dozen feet, and it was shooting, too.

We should have strong parties of all varieties in this country: Communist, fascist, secessionist, Marxist, Troskyist, Birchite, etc. I like countries like Italy where they have so many parties that just two can't connive on the worst. Nothing wrong with that if you believe in freedom of speech.

Um, there's plenty of wrong with having the Red Shirts and Brown Shirts fighting in the streets to protect "the people" from the middle. Are you seriously advocating total political gridlock via strengthening of fringe political parties that advocating racist, violent authoritarian policies?

As for the anarchist party, that sounds confusing. But, don't forget that we have thousands of anarchists in this country who labor every day to make the world a less authoritarian place, and I applaud any good constructive efforts in that direction.

I have trouble seeing what common ground the anarchists and the bulk of the Social Forum-goers [[who advocate a massive expansion of government) have. These are not fellow travelers.

Oh, and I see CodePink is on hand this week. I wonder if they're bringing the flag-draped coffins that they place outside Walter Reed to taunt injured soldiers ...

[Detroitnerd]

[i]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ynY5NvYsZY

Thanks for the smile, Pam.

[Detroitnerd]

Um, there's plenty of wrong with having the Red Shirts and Brown Shirts fighting in the streets to protect "the people" from the middle. Are you seriously advocating total political gridlock via strengthening of fringe political parties that advocating racist, violent authoritarian policies?

Haha. I didn't see any of that shit in Italy. I saw the main street with booths for all sorts of weird parties. You see, lots of parties talk a good game about revolution and "by any means necessary," but that's not the politically protected part of their political activities. The protected part is the peaceful, nonviolent, system-oriented work of running campaigns and coordinating political work. I am amused to see you leaping right to battles in the streets. [[Are there any outdated political cliches you don't hold dear to your rhetoric?) But there they were, side by side and peaceful on a street in Milan. And their elected politicians form coalition governments, instead of here where we charge right into all sorts of disastrous adventures with our two-party state party. Don't like it? Maybe you should start bombing Italy.

I have trouble seeing what common ground the anarchists and the bulk of the Social Forum-goers [[who advocate a massive expansion of government) have. These are not fellow travelers.

You'd think so, but, then again, unless you've traveled in these circles, you wouldn't understand their commonalities. They are opposed to the system, and actually do have very interesting debates and discussions. [[I should note, that the anarchists and communists I've seen argue are a lot more courteous and open-minded with each other than many on this forum.) Personally, I think the anarchists are much more interesting than the party people, except I don't approve of the smash-and-spraypaint anarkids the press loves to highlight.

Oh, and I see CodePink is on hand this week. I wonder if they're bringing the flag-draped coffins that they place outside Walter Reed to taunt injured soldiers ...

No, they're burying a scrapped humvee they painted pink and turning it into an art garden, at Heidelberg Project.

Anyway, we should place a moratorium on that canard about peace activists taunting soldiers. I'll bet lots of the people in Walter Reed have no problem with people protesting the war. Ever see "Coming Home"? Or do you try not to watch movies from before Reagantime?

[Detroitnerd]

Why would anybody want to go to the Social Forum?

Look all around us. We're in the middle of a foreclosure meltdown, and haven't even started to feel the beginning of the commercial foreclosure crisis that's on the way. Unemployment way up, with no strong job creation. Two major wars with illegal bombing of another country, perhaps two more on the way. Dwindling civil liberties, with government officials claiming they have the right to assassinate American citizens if they want to, or even to strip them of their rights and imprison them without trial. A million Americans in prison. No real future for most young people, no security for most of the elderly. A system that punishes you when you're poor and funnels trillions of dollars into the pockets of the wealthy.

By any stretch of the imagination, this system is a failure. Go to Washington, and you'll get the same-old answers from the same-old political hacks who've been running this same-old country into the ground for a generation. No fresh ideas there.

So, I'm not surprised that tens of thousands of people want to come to town to talk to many different people with many, many different ideas. And you shouldn't be either.

If the U.S. government didn't want communists, why has it spent the last 30 years trying to prove Karl Marx right?

[English]

Why would anybody want to go to the Social Forum?

Look all around us. We're in the middle of a foreclosure meltdown, and haven't even started to feel the beginning of the commercial foreclosure crisis that's on the way. Unemployment way up, with no strong job creation. Two major wars with illegal bombing of another country, perhaps two more on the way. Dwindling civil liberties, with government officials claiming they have the right to assassinate American citizens if they want to, or even to strip them of their rights and imprison them without trial. A million Americans in prison. No real future for most young people, no security for most of the elderly. A system that punishes you when you're poor and funnels trillions of dollars into the pockets of the wealthy.

By any stretch of the imagination, this system is a failure. Go to Washington, and you'll get the same-old answers from the same-old political hacks who've been running this same-old country into the ground for a generation. No fresh ideas there.

So, I'm not surprised that tens of thousands of people want to come to town to talk to many different people with many, many different ideas. And you shouldn't be either.

If the U.S. government didn't want communists, why has it spent the last 30 years trying to prove Karl Marx right?

Wait, Detroitnerd. You mean to tell me that the "privatize the profits, socialize the risk" strategy isn't working for most of us???

I don't see why people object to having the USSF here. They are more than welcome.

[lincoln8740]

What's your question? What kind of people will show up for the forum? Is that the $64,000 question? I'm sorry, Lincoln. Amid the accusations of bashing and all, I must have missed that. I haven't dropped in yet, so I don't know who's there. But if you want to know, why don't you come on down? I'm sure all the restaurants in the area will be jammed with them. Doesn't that sound exciting?

one more time nice and slow

you criticized bshea for saying what type of people he thought were going to be at the "forum"

I simply asked what type of people you thought were going to be at the "forum"--a very simple and straightforward question

your circular answer was [[ I think)-- I haven't gone to the forum so there is no way I can form any opinion whatsoever on a prediction about the type of people who are attending.----so typical

so one more time--Please let us know your prediction of what kind of people will be attending the "forum"

And as far as "coming on down" I am there right now laughing my ass off at all the hipster doofus people in grand circus park. The bums don't know whether to ask for money from these people or give it!!!

I would say the percentage of people at this forum that plan on showering over the next couple of days is about 20%

[Detroitnerd]

one more time nice and slow
you criticized bshea for saying what type of people he thought were going to be at the "forum"

Actually, my criticism is not of what he said, but the fact that he was describing people he hadn't seen yet. Which, you'll note, is exactly what you want me to do.

I simply asked what type of people you thought were going to be at the "forum"--a very simple and straightforward question
your circular answer was [[ I think)-- I haven't gone to the forum so there is no way I can form any opinion whatsoever on a prediction about the type of people who are attending.----so typical
so one more time--Please let us know your prediction of what kind of people will be attending the "forum"

I'm not dodging the question, Lincoln. I missed the question. Then I said I didn't know the answer. Now you want conjecture, even though you appear to be right in the thick of things. That's weird.

Here's the usual rundown at these sort of events: Vegans, minorities, housing activists, trustifarians, animal rights folks, labor activists, anti-globalization activists, anarkids, hippies, gender and orientation activists, communists, socialists, anarchists, union members, social justice advocates, lawyers, environmental justice advocates, small-media types, etc. I can hear 'em right outside my office right now.

And as far as "coming on down" I am there right now laughing my ass off at all the hipster doofus people in grand circus park. The bums don't know whether to ask for money from these people or give it!!!
I would say the percentage of people at this forum that plan on showering over the next couple of days is about 20%

Well there you go. See? You didn't need my description. You have already made up your mind about them.

What is this "argument" about, anyway? It's like banging my head against the wall so that dust can fall in my eyes...

[BShea]

Just got back from the parade.

There is no reason for anyone to take any of the USSF seriously, based on what I witnessed.

Here's the usual rundown at these sort of events: Vegans, minorities, housing activists, trustifarians, animal rights folks, labor activists, anti-globalization activists, anarkids, hippies, gender and orientation activists, communists, socialists, anarchists, union members, social justice advocates, lawyers, environmental justice advocates, small-media types, etc. I can hear 'em right outside my office right now.

Absolutely right. And no one will take that humorless mish-mash seriously. Banging drums, tooting horns, screeching on bullhorns, chanting and generally acting like its 1968. Every grievence imaginable is represented at the parade, and handouts are being demanded. I'm thinking of marching in demand for free vodka. I have a right to that, don't I?

Best part? The USSF hired 20 or so private security types [[dressed in combat boots, urban-pattern camouflage and wearing tactical web gear) from a local company to protect them ... from purse snatchers and any opposition, according to the security firm's spokesman. I guess they figured violence was possible. There are also maybe a hundred Detroit cops there.

To protect them, apparently, from the one guy dressed in 18th century Tea Party gear.