WalMart To Takeover Livonia Mall Site, Plans Detroit Store?

[jams]

I find it very sad to realize, that Kurt Vonnegut's first novel, Player Piano, despite its flaws, was so close to the truth of our society.

[313WX]

So you're saying capitalism is itself the problem? Fair enough, I guess.

Unfettered Capitalism [[which is what Wal-Mart is in a nutshell) is the problem.

The closest we ever had to true mixed economics [[realisitically the most successful economic system) was immediately after FDR's presidency. Most would agree America was at its prime then. It's hardly ironic we didn't have a boom/bust cycle for another 20 years after his departure.

[Jimaz]

There's also a confusion here between the size of an organization and its success. The two terms are not synonymous. Reading back over the thread the dominant theme is that most consumers dislike Walmart. That is not success. That is failure.

The idea that Walmart is pro-competition is equally absurd. They are anything but that and their self-positioned goal to be anti-competitive is self-evident. They have a reputation of ruthlessly driving their competitors out of business.

[313WX]

There's also a confusion here between the size of an organization and its success. The two terms are not synonymous. Reading back over the thread the dominant theme is that most consumers dislike Walmart. That is not success. That is failure.

The idea that Walmart is pro-competition is equally absurd. They are anything but that and their self-positioned goal to be anti-competitive is self-evident. They have a reputation of ruthlessly driving their competitors out of business.

Well I guess the definitio of success is subjective then. For the 25 or so people here dislike Wal-Mart, there are thousands of people who sitll love and shop at Wal-Mart.

I always thought a porfitable & geowing business meant they were a successful business, but I guess that's just me. And they're not ":ruthlessly" driving their competitors out of business, as Target, Meijer and Kroger all seems to be competing relatively well with them. As is the case with Capitalism, if you can't handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

[Novine]

"I always thought a porfitable & geowing business meant they were a successful business"

If that's your only definition of success, it's true that Wal-Mart is a "successful" business. But ask the communities that have been decimated and hollowed-out by Wal-Mart's business practices if they consider it a "success" and you might get a different answer.

[Melocoton]

Of course, we've seen the alternative: centrally-planned economies with massive regulation and controls, such as the Soviet Union, red China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. And all of the people I've met from those places adore Walmart.

Did you seriously just red-bait critics of Wal-Mart?

[Hermod]

"I always thought a porfitable & geowing business meant they were a successful business"

If that's your only definition of success, it's true that Wal-Mart is a "successful" business. But ask the communities that have been decimated and hollowed-out by Wal-Mart's business practices if they consider it a "success" and you might get a different answer.

The small town downtown stores survived for years because they had "captive customers" who had no other choices. When it came to sharp business practices, monopoly pricing, total arrogance, and exploiting labor practices, Walmart looks pretty damn good compared to them. They loved to pay teenagers "under the table" and work them long hours [[hey, you live at home and don't need that much money)

When I went into the army in 1961, i was stationed first at Aberdeen Proving Ground and the local town was Aberdeen, Maryland. Every thing was high priced and if the store didn't have it, it was "discontinued" or "on backorder". I left APG in 1963. I came back in 1968 and an Ames store had opened just outside the town limits. It was like night and day. You could actually buy something you needed.

The downtowns hollowed out for lack of easy parking, high prices, and limited stock

[iheartthed]

Did you seriously just red-bait critics of Wal-Mart?

Pure irony when you consider where the products are manufactured that Wal-Mart sells...

[Hermod]

Unfettered Capitalism [[which is what Wal-Mart is in a nutshell) is the problem.

The closest we ever had to true mixed economics [[realisitically the most successful economic system) was immediately after FDR's presidency. Most would agree America was at its prime then. It's hardly ironic we didn't have a boom/bust cycle for another 20 years after his departure.

FDR checked out of the net in 1945. We had serious recessions in 1954 and in 1958 that led to forty years of Democratic control of the House of Representatives [[1954-1994) and control of the senate until the Reagan years. Part of JFK's presidential platform in 1960 was the "bad" economy of the fifties [[and a non-existent missile gap with the USSR). After taking office, JFK pushed through a general income tax cut [[including the top rate going down from 91% to 70%) on the basis of evening out the boom-bust cycle.

[313WX]

"I always thought a porfitable & geowing business meant they were a successful business"

If that's your only definition of success, it's true that Wal-Mart is a "successful" business. But ask the communities that have been decimated and hollowed-out by Wal-Mart's business practices if they consider it a "success" and you might get a different answer.

Well would you rather the government "regulate" [[socialism) how big Wal-Mart [[or any american business) can grow, when/where they can do business and how much money they can profit? I don't recall America being found & growing on those economic principles.

[HazenPingree]

Did the people working at Walmart turn down better-paying jobs somewhere?

In the absence of Walmart, is there another employer for those people?

For all its flaws, Walmart provides goods at low prices to people who otherwise may not be able to afford those things. Walmart does things more efficient than other retailers, so it can provide them at much lower prices. But I certainly get the impression that some folks would love to see Walmart shutdown and shoppers be forced to pay higher prices in the name of some bizarre notion of social justice, or something.

A single parent making minimum wage should have to pay more for diapers and food because of someone's idea of economic justice for the mom-and-pop store that charges more. Brilliant.

Why do people hate the idea of competition so much? Walmart hates it. Mom and pop hate it. The anti-Walmart activists hate it -- because Walmart generally wins the competition battle. Of course, we've seen the alternative: centrally-planned economies with massive regulation and controls, such as the Soviet Union, red China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. And all of the people I've met from those places adore Walmart.

Just my two cents. And yes, I worked at
a Walmart [[in the garage) many moons ago. I didn't feel exploited.

If you agree that most people will spend a fixed amount of money on their goods, if a wallmart opens and they choose to shop there, they will move their dollars from other stores. Smaller stores hire more local workers, spend a higher percentage of their dollars in the local economy, often offer more locally made items, and add more local flavor to a neighborhood. I would rather have smaller stores even if I have to pay a little more.

[jams]

Well would you rather the government "socialize" how big Wal-Mart [[or any american business) can grow, when/where they can do business and how much money they can profit? I don't recall America being founded on those principles.

Remember the East India Tea Company and the Boston Tea Party?

[313WX]

Remember the East India Tea Company and the Boston Tea Party?

Yes, what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

[Novine]

"I don't recall America being found & growing on those economic principles."

No, it was founded through the slave labor of Africans and the forced labor of those serving in indentured servitude. Throw in the appropriation of native American lands and you have a pretty good handle on the economics at the founding of the US. Which aspects of that system do you admire?

[313WX]

"I don't recall America being found & growing on those economic principles."

No, it was founded through the slave labor of Africans and the forced labor of those serving in indentured servitude. Throw in the appropriation of native American lands and you have a pretty good handle on the economics at the founding of the US. Which aspects of that system do you admire?

It depends...

Well would you rather the government "regulate" [[socialism) how big Wal-Mart [[or any american business) can grow, when/where they can do business and how much money they can profit?

[Jman]

"I don't recall America being found & growing on those economic principles."

No, it was founded through the slave labor of Africans and the forced labor of those serving in indentured servitude. Throw in the appropriation of native American lands and you have a pretty good handle on the economics at the founding of the US. Which aspects of that system do you admire?

Through that same system we grew as a country and have done away with slave labor and indentured servitude. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for some countries within the African continent. Which of those countries do you admire the most?

[Hermod]

If you agree that most people will spend a fixed amount of money on their goods, if a wallmart opens and they choose to shop there, they will move their dollars from other stores. Smaller stores hire more local workers, spend a higher percentage of their dollars in the local economy, often offer more locally made items, and add more local flavor to a neighborhood. I would rather have smaller stores even if I have to pay a little more.

Walmart isn't in Detroit proper. How is that working for all of your lovely little stores there in the city?

[BShea]

"I don't recall America being found & growing on those economic principles."

No, it was founded through the slave labor of Africans and the forced labor of those serving in indentured servitude. Throw in the appropriation of native American lands and you have a pretty good handle on the economics at the founding of the US. Which aspects of that system do you admire?

If you loathe this county so much, why are you still here? Are terrible nation that you apparently hate so much allows you the freedom to depart.

Which Old World nation do you admire most, that had no history of economic exploitation at some point?

This should be good ...

[jams]

If you loathe this county so much, why are you still here? Are terrible nation that you apparently hate so much allows you the freedom to depart.

Which Old World nation do you admire most, that had no history of economic exploitation at some point?

This should be good ...

The usual response made to a point for which you have no rational counterpoint.

Try AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.

[rb336]

Well would you rather the government "regulate" [[socialism) how big Wal-Mart [[or any american business) can grow, when/where they can do business and how much money they can profit?

regulating corporations is NOT socialism, by any definition. Right now, if you truly value your freedom, you should hope governments start to protect people from the predations of the multi-national corporations. Unless you want to embrace the new feudalism

[BShea]

The usual response made to a point for which you have no rational counterpoint.

Try AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.

It's a counterpoint to an intellectually slothful strawman.

He wants to whine about slavery and exploitation in contextless criticism of the United States, but is unable to provide an alternative without such problematic history. I understand why he can't: Just about everywhere else on Earth is as bad or worse.

It's fun and easy to be against something. At some point you have to grow up and be for something. I can love my county and love our system while acknowledge it's not perfect. No place or system is.

[Sstashmoo]

The "everybody's doin' it" response

[BShea]

The "everybody's doin' it" response

Do you have an example to offer, or just comments from the peanut gallery?

Sweden again, maybe? The same Sweden that practiced government eugenics -- sterilization and lobotomies -- until the mid 1970s? That has a state-supported official religion? Has a nearly 55% unwed pregnancy rate among women?

Sweden's contribution to the world is Ikea [[which was attack at home as being too capitalistic) and ABBA.

Germany? I think Germany has a far more troubled recent history than we do.

France, England and Spain? Pretty gory histories there, too. And those are your primary slave-trading nations. Keep in mind, it was mostly European slave traders that picked up slaves from Africa to sell to our Southern states.

Singing the praises of benevolent socialism while bitching about the United States would appear to be a pretty out-of-tune choir since every one of those nations has has many historical flaws as this nation.

If you're willing to pay 50% federal income tax [[atop state and local rates) to pay for a nanny state, it's your right to desire that. But you're among a tiny cadre on this side of the pond. Placing that much trust in government -- the same one people say lied about WMD -- is confusing to me.

[jams]

So why do you continue to support a bureaucratic company that pays its employees barely enough to qualify to pay taxes?

I see you trust Big Businesses, rather than the government, to control our lives. In my opinion, there is not much difference between the two. Both are easily corrupted.

[Novine]

Having fun attacking those strawmen Shea? No one claimed those European countries were perfect. But they are perfect counterpoints to your phony claim that only American-style capitalism lies between us and the Gulag. Some how a good number of countries around this world have managed to have working democracies and economic systems that actually take into consideration factors other than the profits of the executives and the privileged classes. I know in your Fox News World mindset, no one is allowed to point out the "worts" of Wal-Mart capitalism without you demanding they renounce their citizenship. I know pointing out the flaws of unbridled capitalism, like the exploitation of illegal immigrants, the blatant disregard for human safety and health and the abuses of the natural environment, causes your head to explode in rage.

I get it. You're a shill for the corporate class. In the day, you would have defended child labor and opposed efforts to regulate the slaughterhouses. But this is my country too and I'm not going to sit silent and let sycophants like you tell all of us why we should let the Matty Morouns, the BPs and the Massey Energy of the worlds keep having their way at our expense.