WalMart To Takeover Livonia Mall Site, Plans Detroit Store?

[jams]

Abso-frickin'-lutely.

The private sector has to be efficient to survive. Government does not. Go look up GUM, the old Soviet department store. That's what you get when government runs the retail sector: Massive lines for horribly quality goods, of which they have almost nothing of, and the goods are random rather then driven by demand.

The free-market capitalism that so many around here get angsty about in that coffeehouse radical sort of way also provided you with the computer, Internet and Internet service you're posting with.

For all the worts of our system, it doesn't require fences, walls, guns and secret police to keep people in. Rather, the rest of the world wants to come here. Compare our lower class to the rest of the planet to see how they compare.

Many claims, yet few facts you offer. The NAZIs prided themselves on effiency, yet the result was negative. Is effiency the sole worth of an idea?
I heard a report on NPR today, a twenty minute walk in the middle of the day might add to a person's productivity instead of a quick lunch in their cubicle.

BTW a bunch of people wanted to enter Gaza yesterday. Why?

[BShea]

Many claims, yet few facts you offer. The NAZIs prided themselves on effiency, yet the result was negative. Is effiency the sole worth of an idea?
I heard a report on NPR today, a twenty minute walk in the middle of the day might add to a person's productivity instead of a quick lunch in their cubicle.

BTW a bunch of people wanted to enter Gaza yesterday. Why?

I don't even know where to begin with any of that ... if you don't understand that efficiency drives down price in a competitive market [[absent collusion), then I can't help you.

But I tell you what: You and I come up with a good to sell to people. You manufacture your item inefficiently and through collective planning. I'll create mine by the most efficient means available. I can sell mine at a lower price and make money, which allows me to remain in business. You could sell yours at a low price if subsidized by the taxpayers somehow, but that's not really competition, is it? And it won't last.

America's dynamic, entrepreneurial society has done pretty well for itself. If you'd like to find a counter example of an equally successful system, I'm all ears.

Do you really think that Gaza flotilla was full of people seeking to emigrate to that place rather than to loudly make a political statement by seeking confrontation with the IDF navy? Is that what you're suggesting?

[Hermod]

Towards the end of the Soviet era, a Soviet government economist was speaking to the problems with central economic planning.

If the manager of a nail factory is rewarded based on the number of nails produced, the hardware stores will be full of carpet tacks.

If the manager of a nail factory is rewarded based on the weight of nails produced, the hardware stores will have nothing but railroad spikes.

If the manager of a nail factory is rewarded based on the value of nails produced, gentlemen, we will see our first solid gold nails!

That is always the problem with government ownership of an economic asset. The manager [[and the workers) suboptimize for their own benefit.

[canuck]

So what?

He should have read the contract and knew what he was getting himself into before signing it. It's not like Wal-Mart held a gun to his head and forced him against his will to sign it. If they refused to hire him because he didn't sign it, they can legally do that.

I guess nothing short of putting a gun to your head would make you disapprove of Walmart success
stories.

[Novine]

"America's dynamic, entrepreneurial society has done pretty well for itself. If you'd like to find a counter example of an equally successful system, I'm all ears."

More ahistorical BS from Shea. Was it doing "pretty well" when the economic engine was driven on the backs on enslaved Africans? Or when the resources were taken from the native Indians because they weren't fully exploiting it for all its worth? Or when the Gilded Age was accomplished by using children to run the looms in the factories and the drills in the coal mines? Oh, I'm sorry, in "Bull" Shea's world, we're not supposed to question the downside of the system, only trumpet the wonders of excess and greed and pretend that it's all roses and ponies for everyone.

[canuck]

Its funny how the banking system in Canada apart from a few players put any eggs in the subprime basket. And americans had to suffer the indignity of losing millions of homes [[MILLIONS!)In Canada, house values have continued to appreciate. It's pretty clear deregulation and an enthusiasm for making money on increasingly thin unproductive resources has frigged-up the US economy. There is no way I would send my kids defend that kind of an agenda in places like Iraq when degradation in places like Detroit and Cleveland continues unabated.

[jams]

But I tell you what: You and I come up with a good to sell to people. You manufacture your item inefficiently and through collective planning. I'll create mine by the most efficient means available. I can sell mine at a lower price and make money, which allows me to remain in business.

Which is why "Made in China" has become the standard.

Love how you label me a "collectivist", despite any evidence to the contrary>

[jackie5275]

Non-rural Walmarts [[both urban and suburban) often are missing the things that are good about Wal Mart besides low prices. Rural Walmarts often have less employee turnover so you can actually know the employees that work there. They often are cleaner and seen as more of a participant in the community.

I don't know if you consider Houghton Lake to be rural, but I do. I was in the Wal-Mart there a couple of times for some emergency supplies & because up there, they were the only game in town. That store was just as dumpy as the ones in Taylor, Dearborn, & Livonia.

[GPCharles]

Then don't shop at Walmart! Tell all your friends not to shop at Walmart. Support your local merchants and pay more for each and every item. Get that alleged "good" service from that local retailer that you may or may not need.

Why is Walmart successful? Because people shop there to [[i) save money and [[ii) get the goods they want.

[mkhopper]

I can't stand WalMart and am very irritated that they're putting in a new location at the old Livonia Mall site. Apparently 4 miles between locations isn't enough for them.

I was hoping that they would put a Lowes on that site to anchor the frontage businesses, but either way, you have to wonder how long it will take for Sears to finally close their location there. It's already a ghost town most of the time and I can't imagine having a WalMart 10 feet away will help.

[littlebuddy]

I don't have any problems shopping at WalMart or other big box retailers. I am not looking for the help to be "experts" in whatever dept. they work in, if I need something that special I would go to a place that handles the special kind of thing I am looking for. Mom and Pop stores sound nice and homey, but the prices are usually very high and they do not carry much in the way of choice, plus people who work for them are not making great money and benifits, much like the big stores. I noticed mom and pop stores do sell alot of the same stuff that the bigbox retailers sell, just alot higher priced. I haven't noticed the quality of American made products being all that great,plus they are usually higher in price. A guy in the small town[[7500) I live near had a pizza joint, made great pizza, but his prices were twice as high or more than the big box chains in town. So he ends up going out of business recently. I am not much of a fan of the other pizza joints, but when you have to watch you pennies. If you think about it, most stuff the average person buys comes from a few companies for each idem. How many different soda pop companies to we really have to choose from? How many potatoe chip companies? etc While you can find small local idems and some are very,very good, most of what we buy comes from a few companies, so why does it matter if some bigbox retailer sells it cheaper? Are the 300-500 people Walmart is looking for the kind of people who will start their own business, work hard 20hrs a day/7days a week to try to make it, and pay their help 7.40 an hour or people who are just not that interested in going anywhere?

[313WX]

I guess nothing short of putting a gun to your head would make you disapprove of Walmart success
stories.

I don't hate on a business because they're *too* successful at the game [[and that game is Capitalism).

[Bearinabox]

I don't hate on a business because they're *too* successful at the game [[and that game is Capitalism).

So you're saying capitalism is itself the problem? Fair enough, I guess.

[Hermod]

If the Walton's had sponsored MoveOn.org and George Soros was a big right wing contributor, the lefties would grant Walmart corporate sainthood as they have done for Costco and would be screaming for the immediate trial and hanging of Soros for currency manipulation.

[ghettopalmetto]

If the Walton's had sponsored MoveOn.org and George Soros was a big right wing contributor, the lefties would grant Walmart corporate sainthood as they have done for Costco and would be screaming for the immediate trial and hanging of Soros for currency manipulation.

Couldn't do anything other than deflect with speculative bullshit? How typical.

More meat, less crap, please. Not all of us are old brainwashed farts who think the only goal in life is to acquire as much junk as cheaply as possible.

[BShea]

"America's dynamic, entrepreneurial society has done pretty well for itself. If you'd like to find a counter example of an equally successful system, I'm all ears."

More ahistorical BS from Shea. Was it doing "pretty well" when the economic engine was driven on the backs on enslaved Africans? Or when the resources were taken from the native Indians because they weren't fully exploiting it for all its worth? Or when the Gilded Age was accomplished by using children to run the looms in the factories and the drills in the coal mines? Oh, I'm sorry, in "Bull" Shea's world, we're not supposed to question the downside of the system, only trumpet the wonders of excess and greed and pretend that it's all roses and ponies for everyone.

I'm still waiting for that counter example. I'm hearing a lot of desperate noise and deflection, but not an example.

Did I acknowledge our system has worts? Yes. Did I say it was perfect? No. Do I believe it's the best, despite its flaws? Yes.

I challenged you to offer an example of something better, and you reply with ad hominem nonsense, distortion of what I said and other intellectually flimsy filler.

Do you have an alternative or not? Or are you just going to call me names?

[BShea]

Which is why "Made in China" has become the standard.

Love how you label me a "collectivist", despite any evidence to the contrary>

Decoupling the yuan from the dollar is expected to help our manufacturing, whenever that happens.

I don't dispute that the economic principles of mixed-market capitalism have flaws. They do. But we can incentivize the private sector to keep jobs here. We need to do more of that.

Like Hayek, I'm all for a mixed market of proper and reasonable governmental regulation of our markets.

If you prefer something like Sweden or the other European socialist states that employ staggeringly high income tax rates to fuel entitlement spending, that's cool. If you're cool with the taxes, then I have no problem with that belief. Some people are. I don't want to pay that level of taxation and prefer not to rely on the inefficiencies of government that much in my life -- I don't want to be a client of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. But some people do, and that's cool [[in the words of The Dude). I also don't think that sort of system would work in a nation this large. Taxation as a weapon for someone's notion of social justice is a bad idea, in my view.

[Bearinabox]

Decoupling the yuan from the dollar is expected to help our manufacturing, whenever that happens.

I don't dispute that the economic principles of mixed-market capitalism have flaws. They do. But we can incentivize the private sector to keep jobs here. We need to do more of that.

Like Hayek, I'm all for a mixed market of proper and reasonable governmental regulation of our markets.

If you prefer something like Sweden or the other European socialist states that employ staggeringly high income tax rates to fuel entitlement spending, that's cool. If you're cool with the taxes, then I have no problem with that belief. Some people are. I don't want to pay that level of taxation and prefer not to rely on the inefficiencies of government that much in my life -- I don't want to be a client of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. But some people do, and that's cool [[in the words of The Dude). I also don't think that sort of system would work in a nation this large. Taxation as a weapon for someone's notion of social justice is a bad idea, in my view.

Are you suggesting that what Europe has is something other than mixed-market capitalism? Or that the US doesn't have entitlement spending? I'm confused.

[BShea]

Are you suggesting that what Europe has is something other than mixed-market capitalism? Or that the US doesn't have entitlement spending? I'm confused.

Are you suggesting the United State and Europe are interchangeable?

Much of Europe is farther along the socialism scale than the United States, obviously. We don't have taxation rates as many of those nations do, and we don't provide the level of entitlements. We're not Greece with a retirement age of 54 and we're not Sweden willing to pay 80% of your salary if you become jobless.

It would be curious to witness what Europe would do if it had to make the defense spending choices it used to make, and no longer relied on the United States to maintain order. Europe's social spending was made possible by the Marshall Plan and the American taxpayer's willingness to protect the West from the Warsaw Pact for 50+ years. Take away that protection, and require England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Austria, Greece, the Low Counties, etc., to provide for their own defense and things would be very different today. Or, they'd be Soviet satellite states [[or recovering from being so).

Guns or butter. Europe chose butter because we paid for the guns [[and much of the butter, as well). These are the historic geopolitical realities that drove the economic choices of the West for the past three generations.

[lincoln8740]

If you prefer something like Sweden or the other European socialist states that employ staggeringly high income tax rates to fuel entitlement spending, that's cool. If you're cool with the taxes, then I have no problem with that belief. Some people are. I don't want to pay that level of taxation and prefer not to rely on the inefficiencies of government that much in my life -- I don't want to be a client of a cradle-to-grave welfare state. But some people do, and that's cool [[in the words of The Dude). I also don't think that sort of system would work in a nation this large. Taxation as a weapon for someone's notion of social justice is a bad idea, in my view.

Uh sir a lot of people on this board and even some in this thread, think that taxing 90% of any income above two million is justified.

As with matty, walmart etc they really hate rich people around here. I think it has something to do with jealousy or they think that in order to become successful you have to be evil and stomp on the hearts and minds of others to become a success.

[Novine]

"I challenged you to offer an example of something better, and you reply with ad hominem nonsense, distortion of what I said and other intellectually flimsy filler."

Look at you getting pissy because I refuse to play your game by your rules. I gave you several examples of countries where citizens enjoy a good standard of living and democratic rule without having to resort to the Wal-Mart version of capitalism or communist rule. Your response is to pounce all over one, Sweden, as proof of how terrible those countries really are and how great it is for us to live in the USA. If you're auditioning for a Fox News business "reporter" spot, keep on. You're doing a great job with your Comic Book Capitalism version of reality. It helps to explain the Manny the Magnificent version of reality every time the discussion of DRIC comes up.

"Did I acknowledge our system has worts? Yes."

Right. You literally said "For all the worts of our system...". That's it. What worts are you willing to acknowledge Mr. Shea? The companies that exploit illegal immigrants for low-cost labor? The companies the skimp on safety until their mines blow up or oil rigs explode, killing people and destroying the environment? The Wal-Marts that seek to drive us all to minimum-wage lifestyles and then get mindless drones to tell us how wonderful it is that the Wal-Marts of the world can supply us with all our wants and needs at the minimum price?

I know that none of this matters in your Comic Book Capitalism world. But it's what those of us who don't think like a talking head on Fox News can actually acknowledge without having to embrace socialism or communism. I know, the Comic Book Capitalism view of the world doesn't include gray, just black and white. But outside of your funny pages view of economics, people in the real world can actually think beyond your silly talking points.

[Jimaz]

Considering the way the word "worts" was used, I suspect there is some identity deception going on here.

[jams]

Worts of wisdom, jimaz?

[Jimaz]

Worts of wisdom, jimaz?

LOL I don't know but I hope no "cockpunchers" contract genital "worts" from this operation.

[jams]

It would be curious to witness what Europe would do if it had to make the defense spending choices it used to make, and no longer relied on the United States to maintain order.

It also would be curious to see the results of these exploits in the Middle East without European participation.

But back to the point.

As I walked along Fort Street in Lincoln Park today, I saw the results of your unfettered capitalism and changing choices. No longer do those storefronts host small businesses that provided an income to support a family, send a kid to college, and just contribute to society.

I'm older than you and am nostalgic for those small businesses of my youth, I still hunger for kielbasa smoked behind Leo's store instead of a prepackaged piece of crap wrapped in plastic with a UBS code.

You accuse me of being a "collectivist", yet you yearn for a world of the lowest common goods to be offered based on price.