The Browning of Arizona

[Sstashmoo]

rb, You and I owe that money. The Government doesn't pay for anything. We pay for everything. That's our debt. That Obama has added significantly to.

[maxx]

rb, You and I owe that money. The Government doesn't pay for anything. We pay for everything. That's our debt. That Obama has added significantly to.

And a lot of that debt Obama has added to was created in order to save the economy from depression. Hank Paulson called the situation as much in 2008. And it is far easier to start a war than to end it unless you just don't care what situation you leave behind. Even though Republicans tend to just negate acts Democratic presidents do like the Clean Air Act or Reagan taking the solar panels off the White House, people with consciences just don't stop a war because it was started by the other side but try to make the best of a bad situation.

[oladub]

And a lot of that debt Obama has added to was created in order to save the economy from depression. Hank Paulson called the situation as much in 2008. And it is far easier to start a war than to end it unless you just don't care what situation you leave behind. Even though Republicans tend to just negate acts Democratic presidents do like the Clean Air Act or Reagan taking the solar panels off the White House, people with consciences just don't stop a war because it was started by the other side but try to make the best of a bad situation.

The borrowing and printing of money only delay the ineveitable. Each $1T spent equals $6,000 of additional debt billed the average taxpayer. Each $1T equals 1.8% of the US economy meaning that whenever the economy emerges from the Bush/Obama depression, it will be that much smaller. If I were in debt and about to lose my house, an additional loan would improve my situation in the short run. In the longer run, the additional loan would also come due and I would be worse shape than at present. President Obama [[and Bush) simply kicked the can a little further down the road and gave part of the bill to our children. If a father stole money from his kid's savings account, he would be repremanded. When Obama [[and Bush) steal from the next generation, you praise Obama.

We went in to get Bin Laden. What exactly are we doing in Afghanistan these days? What gives us the authority to bomb Yemen and weddings in Pakistan? Meanwhile our own borders are allowed to remain porous allowing the possibility of backpack nukes being smuggled in. Short of being able to convert Afghans to a gentler, kinder form of Islam, we have no exit prospects. Osama's plan to suck us in to be picked off and weigh on our economy must be working better than he hoped.

[maxx]

I have been posting since the Iraq war began that our homeland security money would be better spent shoring up our own border defenses as well as defending our nuclear, chemical and water facilities.
But the bigger picture of US hegemony can be found here. Why do we still have bases in Italy when we also have bases in Germany?
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3592

AS for Afghanistan, here is the official line. It sounds reasonable, but I don't know if it can be successful.
http://www.uspolicy.be/issues/afghan...fghanistan.asp

And in Congress, who wants to be the first member to suggest that we pull back our military in some part of the world, even Italy? Can you imagine the political hay the hawks could make of that?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=5564

And how many Americans are financially dependent on the military?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7834939/

We're a pretty militaristic society.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "And a lot of that debt Obama has added to was created in order to save the economy from depression."

Like how? What has he spent [[not loaned)money on that has improved the economy? According to many, reality is going to set in next year when the Bush tax cuts expire. The Mayan calendar may be more accurate than we want to believe. [[That was for you Gannon Anyways how has the stimulus helped?

[maxx]

http://levin.senate.gov/services/recovery/index.html

http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7...5751--,00.html

[Sstashmoo]

You post two links directly to some Democratic boilerplate bullshit. Again, what has Obama done to create jobs, curve the flow of outsourcing our manufacturing? He hasn't done anything but serve special interests. The fact he has spent as much as he has and it's had such little effect, should alarm us all. Obama has not "saved the economy" They manipulate numbers to make it sound better. Wait till 2011. I'm saving and sticking back what I can.

[maxx]

Also the best president money can buy.

AS opposed to the worst president money could buy, i.e., W.

[Stosh]

You post two links directly to some Democratic boilerplate bullshit. Again, what has Obama done to create jobs, curve the flow of outsourcing our manufacturing? He hasn't done anything but serve special interests. The fact he has spent as much as he has and it's had such little effect, should alarm us all. Obama has not "saved the economy" They manipulate numbers to make it sound better. Wait till 2011. I'm saving and sticking back what I can.

You are, by far, possibly the most obtuse being on the planet, and possibly off it as well. Boilerplate bullshit? On GOVERNMENT PAID SITES? How ignorant.

[maxx]

You post two links directly to some Democratic boilerplate bullshit.

So you don't believe any of that has happened?

Again, what has Obama done to create jobs, curve the flow of outsourcing our manufacturing?

What do Republicans do but continue to say that we should cut the taxes of the super-rich from whence all good things trickle down?

He hasn't done anything but serve special interests.

like all those evil makers of wind turbines and teachers and police

The fact he has spent as much as he has and it's had such little effect, should alarm us all.

The size of our military budget and how we spend it should alarm us all.

Obama has not "saved the economy".

The rest of the nation is starting to recover from a dire situation that even forced Republicans like Hank Paulson to resort to socialism. Michigan is another story because for too long we have been like a banana republic with only one product.

It's a lot easier to destroy than to rebuild.

[rb336]

According to many, reality is going to set in next year when the Bush tax cuts expire.

Who? apart, of course, from the wing-nuts and Cato. Blanket income tax cuts for the rich have never resulted in job creation. Never. They have, however ALWAYS resulted in sky-rocketing deficits

[jiminnm]

Who? apart, of course, from the wing-nuts and Cato. Blanket income tax cuts for the rich have never resulted in job creation. Never. They have, however ALWAYS resulted in sky-rocketing deficits

I can hear the screams from the rich when the 10% bracket becomes 15% and the 15% bracket becomes 25%.

Sky rocketing deficits occurred because of out of control spending, not reduced taxes. Taxes paid have increased after major tax rate reductions.

[Detroitej72]

Again, this is the elephant in the room which folks on the left and right seem to ignore:

The only reason anybody cares is that most so-called illegals tend to be Hispanic.

Hispanics tend to be law-abiding Catholics, unlike most "native born Americans" who are largely Protestant, and they used the same argument in the early days of the 20th Century about Eastern Europeans.[[i.e., they are not like us Protestants)

The right wing hates the thought of more Catholics coming to this country and the left wing has all the atheist's who hate more "damn Xtian" folks coming here to outnumber them. Thus the vicious circle repeats itself...

Wake up, folks, your prejudice slip is showing...

[maxx]

How can anyone who just wants the immigration laws enforced be prejudiced?
Arizona has been run by neocons who run for office as tax cutters. With the fence building along CA and NM's borders, most of the illegal aliens now come in through AZ's border. Why wasn't AZ a part of the fence building? How many poor nonEnglish-speaking people can any locale take in before the standard of living deteriorates for everyone?

[Papasito]

Obama seems to think that if the border is secured, the Illegals already here will not get a chance at reform/citizenship. Republicans want the border secured first before dealing with reform. Maybe someone should come up with the forsight and inginuity to secure the borders and handle the illegals in the same bill? Just get that done, please. Wouldn't that be amazing...

[Detroitej72]

Papa, do you ever have a clue as to what you preach on this board?

[maxx]

Meanwhile in Texas:
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/06/15/texas-gop-spanish/
"...This weekend, delegates of the Texas Republican Party voted to include a provision in their state party platform advocating for an immigration law similar to Arizona’s SB-1070. The platform also proposes 'making American English the official language of Texas and the United States.'”

Does that mean they're all going to have to learn how to pronounce "oil"?

[maxx]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...gration-reform

Comprehensive Immigration Reform

"...Just a few years ago, when I was a senator, we forged a bipartisan coalition in favor of comprehensive reform. Under the leadership of Senator Kennedy, who had been a longtime champion of immigration reform, and Senator John McCain, we worked across the aisle to help pass a bipartisan bill through the Senate. But that effort eventually came apart. And now, under the pressures of partisanship and election-year politics, many of the 11 Republican senators who voted for reform in the past have now backed away from their previous support. ...

Migrant workers -– mostly here illegally -– have been the labor force of our farmers and agricultural producers for generations. So even if it was possible, a program of mass deportations would disrupt our economy and communities in ways that most Americans would find intolerable...That’s why businesses must be held accountable if they break the law by deliberately hiring and exploiting undocumented workers. We’ve already begun to step up enforcement against the worst workplace offenders. And we’re implementing and improving a system to give employers a reliable way to verify that their employees are here legally. ..

Finally, we have to demand responsibility from people living here illegally. They must be required to admit that they broke the law. They should be required to register, pay their taxes, pay a fine, and learn English. They must get right with the law before they can get in line and earn their citizenship -- not just because it is fair, not just because it will make clear to those who might wish to come to America they must do so inside the bounds of the law, but because this is how we demonstrate that being -- what being an American means. Being a citizen of this country comes not only with rights but also with certain fundamental responsibilities. We can create a pathway for legal status that is fair, reflective of our values, and works..."

[oladub]

maxx, Thanks for posting a great reason to not to vote for Obama, or McCain for that matter. Everyone should read your post to understand what we are up against in the White House. This is what Reagan did. He gave 3 million illegal aliens amnesty in return for Democrat promises to close the border, get tough on illegal immigration, etc.. to solve the problem. So here we are with another 8-20M illegal aliens because subsidizing behavior always creates more of the same and no one followed through on the restricting illegal immigration part of the equation. Once again, we have politicians proposing to betray US workers who will never be able to demand a bigger piece of the pie as long as there is surplus labor. NAFTA and GATT are bad enough. Yeah, I'll bet that Obama will make them learn English and he'll only fine them a couple of thousand dollars even though UScitizenshiops could probably fe sold for a hundred times that much. He will sell us out any way he can not that Bush was better..

A better solution than amnesty and fences would be to severly fine cheating employers and incarcerate them. A taste of hard time might even make them consider hiring US workers. If these cheating employers would fear hiring illegals, there would be no incentive for illegal aliens to either come here or stay. Many would leave on their own accord.

To portray illegal aliens as farm wokers is to throw a bit oif a curve. Pew Reasearch calculates that 5.4% of the US workforce is illegal [[although 9.5% of US workers are unemployed) and only about 25% of illegal alens work in agrioculture. 17% of illegals are meanwhile doing construction work and 10% are doing production work. Given the choice, most US citizens would probably rather pay an extra 15 cents for a head of lettuce than pay taxes to extend US workers' unemployment comp anyway.

President Obama won't keep illegal aliens from tasking US jobs, multinational corporations from taking away remaining US jobs, he wasted three months in allowing skimmers to clean up oil that is ruining our shorelines, and has posted some Arizona counties off limits to Americans because they have been overrun with armed Mexicans. It's like Bush's failure in New Orleans but on multiple fronts. He might as well run a white flag up over the White House this 4th of July.

[Papasito]

But that effort eventually came apart. And now, under the pressures of partisanship and election-year politics, many of the 11 Republican senators who voted for reform in the past have now backed away from their previous support. ...

What a load of B.S. every time Obama blames 'partisan' politics for blocking legislation. Every one of us knows that Democrats have the numbers to pass anything they choose to, with thier supermajority, even if every Republican votes against it.

He even spun the recent shoot-down of the pork package that included extending enemployment benefits. The only reason that particular legislation did not pass was because obviously some Democrats voted against it.

[maxx]

What a load of B.S. every time Obama blames 'partisan' politics for blocking legislation. Every one of us knows that Democrats have the numbers to pass anything they choose to, with thier supermajority, even if every Republican votes against it.

He even spun the recent shoot-down of the pork package that included extending enemployment benefits. The only reason that particular legislation did not pass was because obviously some Democrats voted against it.

When some Dems vote against anything, it's a major crime. But when all or nearly all the Republicans vote against anything or set up roadblocks like the filibuster, that's just considered par for the course. Don't you think it's sort of creepy and unAmerican how the Republican party expects everyone to vote in lockstep? I can remember when the Republicans had control of both houses and the Dems actually discussed whether to use the filibuster. Now the Republicans just use it automatically. And remember around 1998 when the Republican House stopped the government by not appropriating the money at Christmastime?

[checkraisej]

Every one of us knows that Democrats have the numbers to pass anything they choose to, with thier supermajority, even if every Republican votes against it.

No, Steelers, not everyone knows that because it's not true. You're the only one that believes that. The Democrats have 56 Senate seats, not the 60 needed for a filibuster proof supermajority. Don't ever let the facts get in the way of your story, though. And thanks for playing.

[Papasito]

The Democrats have 56 Senate seats, not the 60 needed for a filibuster proof supermajority

Oh, that's right, I forgot there have been a few Democrats trimmed off your list.
I wonder why that is....

[Detroitej72]

No, Steelers, not everyone knows that because it's not true. You're the only one that believes that. The Democrats have 56 Senate seats, not the 60 needed for a filibuster proof supermajority. Don't ever let the facts get in the way of your story, though. And thanks for playing.

These jokers only see the "D" next to a politician's name and assume they must be progressive or liberal. Many of the Dem's are really cons in Dem's clothing, like the late Robert Bird, but their dear leader Rush indoctrinates the ditto heads to think all Democrats are bad liberals.

[Papasito]

These jokers

Don't lump me in with the Rush zombies. I never listen to him, and believe me, the Republicans make me just as sick. You could throw out 95% of these guys and it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.

What so many people fail to realize is these guys with R and D next to thier names go to work in the same building on the same street in the same town as one another, and they are not mortal enemies. These folks joke and talk with one another, compromise on values, golf together, eat and party together [[on our dime), and care more about power than principle or the public.

Being a partisan Republican while ignoring how out of touch and power hungry they are, how they claim to be "grass roots" while holding conventions at expensive five star hotels, and how much they lie [[saying one thing and doing exactly the opposite) is very closed minded.

Being a partisan Democrat while ignoring how out of touch and power hungry they are, how they claim to be for the "working man" while most of them are rich beyond a working man's wildest dreams, and how much they lie [[saying one thing and doing exactly the opposite) is very closed minded.

They both suck. The parties, and most of the individuals.
And you are last on thier list of priorities.