Water in Detroit?

[Retroit]

Or maybe because Evil Socialist Big Government helps keep cities nice and prevents large numbers of people from falling into a cycle of abject poverty that they can't get out of, and also chooses not to prosecute minor non-violent drug offenses--how's that for government overreach?

I think you are mistaken. Socialism doesn't keep Europe nice; Europeans do. Socialism doesn't prevent Europeans from falling into poverty; Europeans do. Socialism doesn't have to prevent Europeans from becoming drug addicts; Europeans do that themselves.

If you have a group of people who don't want to live nicely, and don't want to work, and cannot control their drug intake, socialism will not help them.

[Retroit]

So everyone in the Netherlands grow tulips? In their immaculately maintained yards? Got anymore generalizations to make?

How about: you are more likely to find tulips growing in immaculately maintained gardens in the Netherlands than in Detroit?

[Bearinabox]

If you have a group of people who don't want to live nicely, and don't want to work, and cannot control their drug intake, socialism will not help them.

But that's not what we have. That's just what you tell yourself so you don't have to share responsibility for what all of us collectively have done to Detroit. People born into generational urban poverty in America, especially with the additional hindrance of being stereotyped due to their skin color as people who "don't want to live nicely, and don't want to work, and cannot control their drug intake," aren't in control of their fates, and the few who make it out of such situations do nothing to disprove that reality.

It's funny that, in the New Deal/FDR era, nobody minded Big Government much at all. We identified with the recipients of the new programs, which at the time were essentially closed off to nonwhites, and as long as we had to look at people on welfare and say "there but for the grace of God," we considered the expenditures worthwhile investments in a functioning society. Then along comes the Civil Rights Act, and suddenly the image of a recipient of social services goes from a broke-but-hardworking Oklahoma farmer to a black "welfare queen" and the next thing you know we've elected Ronald fucking Reagan to come along and tell us how we don't owe Those Lazy Black Folks anything. It's quite sinister, really, and you can hardly be blamed for not wanting to confront it, but it's destroying our city and our country and it's in all of our best interests for it to stop sooner rather than later.

[iheartthed]

How about: you are more likely to find tulips growing in immaculately maintained gardens in the Netherlands than in Detroit?

This is what I think: I think you should stop generalizing. Every place on Earth is not automatically better than Detroit. And every group of people on Earth is not automatically morally superior to people who live in Detroit.

Yet you come to this forum and constantly attempt to draw a comparison and give some arbitrary reason of why people who live in whatever random location are better than people who live in Detroit. And clearly, you make these comparisons based on information you can't even possibly validate. Or else you would have more thoroughly questioned whether there are enough people in the Netherlands who live in single family houses with yards to even make such a comparison.

[Retroit]

Oh brother, you guys just don't give up, do you?

But that's not what we have.

Well, I was responding to your post. I thought you were contending that socialism has prevented the Netherlands from becoming like Detroit.

That's just what you tell yourself so you don't have to share responsibility for what all of us collectively have done to Detroit.

All of us haven't collectively done to Detroit the damage that Detroit has done to itself.

People born into generational urban poverty in America, especially with the additional hindrance of being stereotyped due to their skin color as people who "don't want to live nicely, and don't want to work, and cannot control their drug intake," ...

Again, I was using your words.

...aren't in control of their fates,...

Then who the heck is?????

and the few who make it out of such situations do nothing to disprove that reality.

They sure do!

It's funny that, in the New Deal/FDR era, nobody minded Big Government much at all.

Wrong! There was very much opposition against the New Deal. Even the Supreme Court ruled some of it unconstitutional. Please re-read your history.

We identified with the recipients of the new programs, which at the time were essentially closed off to nonwhites,...

I agree that there was some discrimination, but many nonwhites benefited from the New Deal. One example: http://newdeal.feri.org/aaccc/index.htm

...and as long as we had to look at people on welfare and say "there but for the grace of God," we considered the expenditures worthwhile investments in a functioning society. Then along comes the Civil Rights Act, and suddenly the image of a recipient of social services goes from a broke-but-hardworking Oklahoma farmer to a black "welfare queen" and the next thing you know we've elected Ronald fucking Reagan to come along and tell us how we don't owe Those Lazy Black Folks anything.

Not true. The same people that were against much of the social welfare programs within the New Deal were against much of the social welfare programs within LBJ's Great Society [[which I think is what you are referring to, not specifically the Civil Rights Act.)

It's quite sinister, really, and you can hardly be blamed for not wanting to confront it, but it's destroying our city and our country and it's in all of our best interests for it to stop sooner rather than later.

What is destroying Detroit is not a lack of government programs. It's a lack of morality, integrity, respect, education, leadership, etc. of many of the people of Detroit.

[Retroit]

This is what I think: I think you should stop generalizing. Every place on Earth is not automatically better than Detroit. And every group of people on Earth is not automatically morally superior to people who live in Detroit.

And I said that?

Yet you come to this forum and constantly attempt to draw a comparison and give some arbitrary reason of why people who live in whatever random location are better than people who live in Detroit. And clearly, you make these comparisons based on information you can't even possibly validate. Or else you would have more thoroughly questioned whether there are enough people in the Netherlands who live in single family houses with yards to even make such a comparison.

And how many comparisons have you made between Detroit and New York? My points wasn't that people in the Netherlands have yards of equal size to Detroiters. My point was that the Dutch generally take better care of their property than Detroiters. And if that isn't obvious to you, then you haven't spent much time in either city, or in researching either city.