Saving Our People & The City

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

DC4808O
I knew I couldn't be alone out there....I love the way your finished your post with the analogy of those folks who fled poor or dangerous conditions in other countries to come to America, damn right poetic and a wonderful bridge to my original argument...Get your kids to safety so that they may prosper!

[Ravine]

I have obtained a very, very small quarter-square of sidewalk cement on which the folks who are able to effectively argue with DC48080's above statement are graciously invited to form a line.

[Zacha341]

Opinions vary, you are welcome to yours. Affirmation not needed here [[reality is sufficient) and I DO LIVE IN THE D.

I simply cannot sum up people to be COWARDS if they have to leave.

I was born here and trying desperately to stay, even engaging citizens at a community level per some of my involvements. But is it simply getting harder, and HARDER TO STAY.

I have family members and friends who endured a home invasions, accosted in their driveways, robbed walking at gun point and lived to talk about it, one friend shot and wounded while mowing a lawn, and I've had a few close call myself. That is a compelling reason to want out.

Plain and simple and many of us are heart broken to leave the city we've strived to stay committed to. From which we were born. Hah, my fathers and mother family left the south to come to Detroit for their dream of a middle-class setting to start and raise their families.

Many are staying as they cannot sell their homes, but when "life and limb" comes into question I am tolerant to those who may have to give up the hope of staying.

Strange, the title of this thread sounds so encouraging. The message appears to be "Flee".

Frankly you are all cowards. Keep patting yourselves on the back for showing us your buts as you run away.

Detroit has big problems but has real potencial for a positive future.

Whining from afar, that Detroit is in the gutter does not impress me. The gutless runners created the problem. The negatives I am hearing simply sounds like an affirmation to youselves that indeed you made the right decision to run.

You are all encouraging others to run so you can believe that you made the right decisions. Misery loves company.

Certainly, this city needs a new vision and strong leadership. Thank you for leaving since you are certainly not potencial new leadership. A void generally gets filled and mindless rats leaving a perceived sinking ship do not create solutions..

[old schooler]

I'm willing to give out my personal contact info for any interested persons to join me to start formulating a couse of action. We are all one this is where we came from lets stand up to save our families and what our predecessors built for us and people of all races and creeds!Conventional government is failing monies and budjects are tight and short!What I propose is not going to be expensive marches,rallies,care concern and compassion then maybe corporate america will come back to invest downtown detroit! We don't even have any downtown woodaward is bare from jefferson to Grand Circus park!! If comerica park hadn't been built we'd have nothing nothing at all Woodward.Wasington Blvd one of old premiere high end shopping avenues is dead dead and gone! the city is broke crime is totally out of control if we and I me us don't do something it's totally over stop crying and complaining lets institute a change! We once were the industrial center of the world lets be recognized again for the city that saved itself!!!!!

[Zacha341]

Well stated... thank you. We do not even realize the stress we are living under daily. We become comfortably numb. But not me. I am in and out of the city all the time and the contrast of lifestyle and amenities is getting too strong/ too weird. Not to say other places don't have problems. Not saying that.

I especially found your comment about people originally coming her for better interesting. My family was like that, siblings on both sides relocated here for better in the 50's. Now most of my family has left. Some even left Michigan. Well I don't want to go that far, but until crime is effectively addressed in Detroit, I cannot judge anyone for wanting to leave for that core reason.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but you come off as sounding quite full of yourself. Living in Detroit does not make you a badass or more enlightened than anyone else especailly when you call others cowards for trying to improve their lives.

Why on God's green Earth would I want to move my family into a crime ridden city and have my children murdered for looking at someone the wrong way on the sidewalk? Why would I want my children to live in a city with a 28% high school graduation rate? Why would I want to live in an area where my children cannot play in their own front yard without having to worry about them getting shot or offered drugs? Why would I want to go to sleep with bars on my windows and a pistol under my pillow? Why would I want to live where if I have to call the police they might not show up at all? Why would I want to pay exhorbitant property taxes and a higher city income tax all while receiving woefully substandard city services?

It is all about quality of life, and the quality of life in the city is tragically abysmal. I am not willing to put my family in harm's way to attempt to fulfill some pollyanna dream of an urban utopia.

Call me a coward if you will but were all of the folks who fled poor conditions of other countries to come to this country and improve their lives, in the past [[and in the present day), cowards for not staying where they were?

I'd rather be called a coward by some nitwit on an internet forum than a statistic or a crime victim.

[old schooler]

No question life is about quality lets give it to Detroit no one is saying move back to detroit fight for it! 'you don't stand for something you fall for anything' If we don't try what the hell else are you doing that's so important? I have a very damanding business I'm working harding now at 59 than i did at 40 but so what lets be counted as a unified people that cared for its own cause govenment can't do shit!!

[old schooler]

by the way the od schooler is scared too but it doesn't matter this matters we need to stand up!Soldiers are full of fear on the lines of fire but It wont detour me hopefully you as well!

[DetroitPole]

What a pathetic collection of angry, bitter old people trying to justify their actions and prejudices.

All of Detroit's problems do not boil down to some vague "value" system lacked by the black people who currently live in the city. Yes, that was the elephant in the room. Most anger and frustration against Detroit simply boils down to racism.

That aside, Detroit, since the 1950's, had had two unchanging problems since then: the flight of jobs, and the flight of residents.

You can't expect much from people who for a couple generations now have had no access to any meaningful employment.

Wholesale white flight began in the 1950's, long before the city was in the state it is today. If a black family moved in to a working class white neighborhood, in which they were usually better off than the current residents, the neighborhood would empty out entirely of white people within a couple years. People were not, initially, fleeing raping and pillaging.

Then we come to the problem of the flight of residents. That's you. You are part of the problem. You are why Detroit is where it is today. So you feel like your life is awesome now. Great, you got yours, now fuck everyone else. Very altruistic.

I call bullshit on anyone who says, "think of the children" in any context. I could think of few worse places to raise my children than Detroit suburbs. Case in point: Troy is closing their library. Many of the finest people I know were kids in Detroit long after the "glory days" and are better people than the Coors Light-chugging bro's I know who grew up in the suburbs. Anecdotal, yes, but so is screaming about how your kids will be better off.

Spare me any anecdotes about seeing Detroit from the freeway or happening down some side street. It shows how disconnected you are from the city and how you contribute nothing.

It is true, the city is a mess but the suburbs have no future. Michigan is doomed without a viable major city.

[Zacha341]

No, the suburbs are not heavenly perfect and each 'burb has it's own culture and set up from which a person can pick per what they want and can afford. Troy is in big trouble for sure - got that. Would not be my first relocation option.

And granted the elephant in the room is in part as you describe, but I am black, and not that old [[smile)... and I work everyday in the city working with in part with its citizens who as of late have been the most vulnerable: the teenagers. Ala the blood bath we've had over the last three weeks.

Then there are the elders, and others living under stress. Also, I met and have had the opportunity to know youth all over the tri-county area and black people are there going on about their lives. I do not begrudge them for relocating -- more I am meeting have never lived in Detroit in the first place.

More and more of the remaining black citizen working stiffs and middle-class [[also working stiffs) are growing weary of striving. The bold-faced crime must be addressed.

...better people than the Coors Light-chugging bro's I know who grew up in the suburbs. Anecdotal, yes, but so is screaming about how your kids will be better off.

A kid will be "better off" if they can live to see 21 and chug their first beer!!! Whatever the brand! Their politics and world view relative to Detroit will be their own to have and respond to. Detroit is a city not a prison!

News flash: CRIME in Detroit is effecting black people the most, right now!

Well, the funeral business is doing well-that's a bright side. The morgue pile-up, not so good.

Yes, indeed I get that there are many factors historically and current relative to the outcome and situation of the D.

However, for me and mine [[and many on this board) it is boiling down one specific thing: CRIME!

And all of the fallout related to crime: fiscally, educationally, systemic and spiritually.

What a pathetic collection of angry, bitter old people trying to justify their actions and prejudices.

All of Detroit's problems do not boil down to some vague "value" system lacked by the black people who currently live in the city. Yes, that was the elephant in the room. Most anger and frustration against Detroit simply boils down to racism.

That aside, Detroit, since the 1950's, had had two unchanging problems since then: the flight of jobs, and the flight of residents.

You can't expect much from people who for a couple generations now have had no access to any meaningful employment.

Wholesale white flight began in the 1950's, long before the city was in the state it is today. If a black family moved in to a working class white neighborhood, in which they were usually better off than the current residents, the neighborhood would empty out entirely of white people within a couple years. People were not, initially, fleeing raping and pillaging.

Then we come to the problem of the flight of residents. That's you. You are part of the problem. You are why Detroit is where it is today. So you feel like your life is awesome now. Great, you got yours, now fuck everyone else. Very altruistic.

I call bullshit on anyone who says, "think of the children" in any context. I could think of few worse places to raise my children than Detroit suburbs. Case in point: Troy is closing their library. Many of the finest people I know were kids in Detroit long after the "glory days" and are better people than the Coors Light-chugging bro's I know who grew up in the suburbs. Anecdotal, yes, but so is screaming about how your kids will be better off.

Spare me any anecdotes about seeing Detroit from the freeway or happening down some side street. It shows how disconnected you are from the city and how you contribute nothing.

It is true, the city is a mess but the suburbs have no future. Michigan is doomed without a viable major city.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

DetroitPole

[DC48080]

So you feel like your life is awesome now. Great, you got yours, now fuck everyone else. Very altruistic.

So are you saying that those who left Detroit to make a better life for themselves owe you and those still in the city something? That is typical of the attitude that has ruined Detroit; the "everybody owes me" entitlement attitude.

And contrary to your tiresome shrill cries, many people who left Detroit did not do it out of racism. I know it may be hard for you and some others to undertstand, especially when calling racism is so much easier than understanding the truth behind the issue.

I live in a diverse neighborhood. There are several black families on my block, 2 of which have told me they moved here from Detroit to escape the crime and for the better schools and living conditions. Funny thing is that nobody seems to see color. The common denominator is that everyone on our block respects their property, their neighbors, their neighbor's property and most importantly, respects themselves. The children all play together and the adults socialize together. Our block parties are great. We understand that we are more alike than we are different.

Wanting a better life and safe place to live is not a racial issue.

[Zacha341]

Precisely... black people visit the suburbs all the time for many basic amenities, goods and service and variety of restaurants etc. not available in Detroit anyway. I dare anyone to debate me on that. We don't even have a Meijers though there was talk of one being built.

Then some black people have moved to those suburban cities as a progress of getting closer to the amenities and additional options no longer available in the city. What is so deep about that!? Do we need permission to conduct our own lives? On our own terms, to make choices about where to go and be... ugh, that sounds like another "restrictive" time frame not so long ago if I recall correctly.

Some ex-Detoiters black and white may return once the crime issues is under control. And I don't mean just downtown or at a sports event! Right now crime is too high and too justified.

So are you saying that those who left Detroit to make a better life for themselves owe you and those still in the city something? That is typical of the attitude that has ruined Detroit; the "everybody owes me" entitlement attitude.

And contrary to your tiresome shrill cries, many people who left Detroit did not do it out of racism. I know it may be hard for you and some others to undertstand, especially when calling racism is so much easier than understanding the truth behind the issue.

I live in a diverse neighborhood. There are several black families on my block, 2 of which have told me they moved here from Detroit to escape the crime and for the better schools and living conditions. Funny thing is that nobody seems to see color. The common denominator is that everyone on our block respects their property, their neighbors, their neighbor's property and most importantly, respects themselves. The children all play together and the adults socialize together. Our block parties are great. We understand that we are more alike than we are different.

Wanting a better life and safe place to live is not a racial issue.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

DetroitPole
I hear some serious anger in your post, thanks for identifying the elephant, yes Detroit has been a Majority AA city for close to 30 years in residents and local government alike and if you remember correctly Coleman said beat feet for 8 mile and don't look back. This was the beginning of the end. I don't think anyone can argue that instutional rascism existed in Detroit from the turn of the century until the end of white flight it is a fact of history. This environment set hard borders to access to housing and employment but white flight alone cannot be the the cause of the current condition of Detroit. You said
"You can't expect much from people who for a couple generations now have had no access to any meaningful employment."
Are you saying that pride in community, home maintenance etc can only be achieved with access to $$. How can you begrudge anyone Black or White for wanting something better for their childern after they had realized that the situation they were in became beyond the scope of even law enforcement. My point throughout this entire Thread is that we all have a right to enjoy quality of life for us and our childern. I have personal experience in the city I'm not writing this from the burbs but I damn sure don't point to those folks as the cause of the problem. When you see a car parked on the lawn vise the driveway or curb side that is your first indication that something is amiss....when you have to pass theough a metal dector to go to civics class that has nothing to do with race it has everything to do with values.

[Zacha341]

PS. Do you still live in Detroit? I do.

What a pathetic collection of angry, bitter old people trying to justify their actions and prejudices.

[sumas]

Detroit Pole, I understand what you are saying and you expressed my thoughts better than I did but then I am apparently a nitwit.

Racism is indeed the underlying cause. I am vaguely amused at how rapidly Grosse Pointe Park is emptying out by whites with too many black folk moving in. The city is engaging in activities to halt this inflex by buying up rental units at above market prices and razing them or by offering a $15,000 grant to home owners to convert flats to single families homes. Families near Grosse Pointe South are now sending their kids to North. Less minorities.

I live in a very stable Detroit neighborhood and couldn't care less what race or religion my neighbors are. The only skunk on our block happens to be white.

[DC48080]

Families near Grosse Pointe South are now sending their kids to North. Less minorities.

You couldn't be more wrong about that. The minority population at North is significantly higher than that of South due to the fact that a large portion of the North student body comes from Harper Woods. I just spoke to a friend of mine who is an administrator in the GP schools to confirm this fact.

I hate to repeat myself, but leaving Detroit is not about racism, it is about making a better life for families. Are we to conclude that the black people who leave Detroit are indeed racist? I'll have to ask my black neighbors about that.

But if you want to make yourself feel superior by inappropriately crying racism where it is not justified, be my guest. Just be careful you don't fall off of that high horse you're riding.

[LeannaM]

Perhaps the initial white flight was due quite a bit to racism, but as the tax base decreased, city services declined, schools became worse, and crime went up, a lot of people moved to suburbs for better schools and better services. And when the people leave, so do a lot of the businesses. That causes more people to leave because their work and shopping is in the suburbs. I'm not a fan of suburbs in general, but I don't blame somebody for living where they feel they could to make a better life for their kids.

The decline likely started with racism, but I don't think that those who leave Detroit today are racists. They just decide they want to move somewhere else.

[DetroitPole]

You couldn't be more wrong about that. The minority population at North is significantly higher than that of South due to the fact that a large portion of the North student body comes from Harper Woods. I just spoke to a friend of mine who is an administrator in the GP schools to confirm this fact.

I hate to repeat myself, but leaving Detroit is not about racism, it is about making a better life for families. Are we to conclude that the black people who leave Detroit are indeed racist? I'll have to ask my black neighbors about that.

But if you want to make yourself feel superior by inappropriately crying racism where it is not justified, be my guest. Just be careful you don't fall off of that high horse you're riding.

For the most part I think everyone is making a lot of very valid points, but the fact remains: white flight did start with pure, unadulterated racism. Of course, the motives behind leaving are very different today and would almost always preclude race, since anyone who leaves the city now has lived in a city that has been majority black for decades. However, the massive exodus of residents that eroded the tax-base, and city services, and neighborhoods that began in the 1950's starting the process of decline we see today was white people fleeing black people.

See Origins of the Urban Crisis by Sugrue.

48080, you are provided a lot of personal anecdotes with very few facts.
You tout how utterly fantastic your suburb is, being diverse and all. Well I'm going to take a wild guess and say you live in 48080. According to the US Census, 48080 is 96.3% white. That is not diverse, and a black family moving onto your block does not integration make. You sound like the person who gets nervous when the topic of race comes up and desperately says, "Some of my best friends are black..." or, "I'm not a racist but..."

It isn't that people shouldn't carve out a safe, comfortable life for themselves and their offspring, but there is the myth in Metro Detroit that the suburbs equals that and life in Detroit is tantamount to death, prison, or worse.

As Detroit falls, so will the suburbs. The very problems that Detroit faces will spread[[have spread, really), especially to the inner-ring suburbs. As of this past decade, the suburbs no longer have the good automotive jobs to fall back that made them wealthy and prosperous for so long on while Detroit languished. Now we die together. It doesn't matter how cute you think your cul-de-sac is. It won't last.

[old schooler]

Hi i started a post to take action not opinions,suppositions and theories! I'm nt angry its a shame all the murders,the killings,drugs.I'm not interested in cause I'm interested in stopping it who is interested in standing up nothing else matters.Talking about it is a waste of energy and air!

[Gistok]

I grew up on Francis in St. Clair Shores so don't give me shit about not knowing what a backwater geriatric aluminum-sided snorefest it is. Now I live in Detroit and I've never had any problems. Nice to see you're also keeping count of the black families on your block. I'm sure you're not the only one.

As someone living in 48081 not far from where 48080 lives... what you call "snorefest"... we like to call "a quite friendly neighborhood". Most homes in 48081 are brick, as are many in 48080 [[some streets are predominately aluminum...) but that isn't even a valid arguing point. Also please check your maps... 48080 and 48081 don't even have cul-de-sac's.... maybe a few dead end streets, but no cul-de-sacs.

I often don't agree with 48080 in many of his posts, but he is spot on in a few of his remarks here... When I need to go to a nearby 7-Eleven at 1:30 AM, I don't have any problem walking the 2 blocks [[rather than taking a car) and I don't have to look over my shoulder [[nor do the children on our street have to walk in the middle of the street... they take the sidewalk without fear).

However, even in the "snorefest" burbs, sometimes shit happens. Here's the last time I walked down to the 7-Eleven at 1:30AM... An altercation occured requiring police. Let me give you a little scenario...

1) walked up to 7-Eleven... where a 5 ft. tall intoxicated boy was trying to pick a fist fight with two 6 ft. tall boys outsided the store. The 6 footers weren't interested.
2) I walked into the 7-Eleven... where the clerk was calling 911.
3) by the time I made it to the Dairy case [[30 seconds later) the first police car pulled up.
4) by the time I made it to the chips aisle 2 more police cars pulled up.
5) by the time I made it to the register, a total of 4 police cars were outside talking to the youths.

Living in a city [[like both 48080 and I do) where a 911 call will GUARANTEE you a 4 minutes or less response time by at least 1 police squad car.... is priceless.

Probably the most important right we have as a nation is freedom... and freedom from fear is [[for many of us) an important part of that right.

Nuff said....

[DetroitPole]

As someone living in 48081 not far from where 48080 lives... what you call "snorefest"... we like to call "a quite friendly neighborhood". Most homes in 48081 are brick, as are many in 48080 [[some streets are predominately aluminum...) but that isn't even a valid arguing point. Also please check your maps... 48080 and 48081 don't even have cul-de-sac's.... maybe a few dead end streets, but no cul-de-sacs.

I often don't agree with 48080 in many of his posts, but he is spot on in a few of his remarks here... When I need to go to a nearby 7-Eleven at 1:30 AM, I don't have any problem walking the 2 blocks [[rather than taking a car) and I don't have to look over my shoulder [[nor do the children on our street have to walk in the middle of the street... they take the sidewalk without fear).

However, even in the "snorefest" burbs, sometimes shit happens. Here's the last time I walked down to the 7-Eleven at 1:30AM... An altercation occured requiring police. Let me give you a little scenario...

1) walked up to 7-Eleven... where a 5 ft. tall intoxicated boy was trying to pick a fist fight with two 6 ft. tall boys outsided the store. The 6 footers weren't interested.
2) I walked into the 7-Eleven... where the clerk was calling 911.
3) by the time I made it to the Dairy case [[30 seconds later) the first police car pulled up.
4) by the time I made it to the chips aisle 2 more police cars pulled up.
5) by the time I made it to the register, a total of 4 police cars were outside talking to the youths.

Living in a city [[like both 48080 and I do) where a 911 call will GUARANTEE you a 4 minutes or less response time by at least 1 police squad car.... is priceless.

Probably the most important right we have as a nation is freedom... and freedom from fear is [[for many of us) an important part of that right.

Nuff said....

To be sure, there are a lot worse places to live in Metro Detroit than those zip codes. Like I said, I grew up there. No real complaints other than it was COMPLETELY white and very elderly even then. Growing up in a homogeneous area did me a huge disservice in life, practically speaking, not even ideologically. The only diversity we had on our block was the family who wasn't Catholic. I'm not going to give away my age, but this was in the 1980's and 1990's, and I know things haven't changed radically since then.

My main argument: St. Clair Shores isn't going to put us on the map. It isn't our central city. It has no industry, and it has no downtown. Long term, it has no future without Detroit or without the auto industry. People from across the country aren't moving to St. Clair Shores or Warren or Livonia, but the young, smart, creative people [[the opposite of people like 48080) from those places are getting the hell out of here and are moving to places like Chicago and New York - real, viable urban areas. They're taking with them their education and any jobs and ideas they'd come up with.

We're putting nails in our own casket as a region by writing off Detroit and pretending we're safe in the suburbs, or pretending Detroit is okay for that matter.

To be sure, Detroit is a much, much more dangerous place than St. Clair Shores. However, we are not really safe anywhere. I think a tragic example is of that kid from the northern Macomb suburbs who was at the Quizno's in Eastpointe or Roseville who was carjacked and killed a few months back.

I don't mean to exploit his terrible death, but what I mean to say is both that we are not really safe anywhere, and that if we ignore Detroit's problems they will continue to spill over into the "green zones".

48080, I'm ignoring you from now on. I could say a lot less charitable things, but you aren't worth the time, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. You are free to enjoy your life in your "diverse" suburb. I'll still be waiting in fear for those drug fiends to beat down my door.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

My original response to OLDSCHOOLER was that people live in a community to feel safe and live the American dream, when that no longer becomes possible its time to find a place to pursue that dream elsewhere. Diversity donesn't make a neighborhood safe to live in and if you live in a multi-racial community and its safe its just a nice place to live, race has nothing to do with it [[as many here have tried to state to no avail the race baiters still point the finger at the whites who left as the blame), respecting the laws of basic human existance of the right to raise your family in a secure environment makes a community not manning neighborhood watch teams hoping to stem the tide of violence. This thread proves to me that race is still the dominate theme in detroit. I think many people here have tried to make the point that they left detoit because it was and is no longer a place where one can rasie a family without undue risk to life and property, i.e all my previous posts. citizens of this great country black and white have RIGHT to raise a family in a family fiendly environment and that environment no longer exists in the D so I say move on. To spin ones wheels as to who is to blame is a waste of time. DetroitPole you have the watch... good luck and I pray the police will arrive in time.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

DC48008
I hope you and your family continue to enjoy the fruits of your family friendly [[aluminum sided or not) community and the safety you enjoy there. Please becareful on those trips into the D

[Gistok]

Detroitpole, I agree... even in Detroit there are areas that appear to get better services than other areas.... and I also agree with your Ben Franklin type assessment... "either we all hang together... or we'll all hang separately"!!

[Retroit]

old schooler, I comment you for wanting to improve your city. I'm sorry I have to decline the offer to march with you as I don't live in the city proper, but there are a lot of us in the suburbs who really feel sorry for the good people who are still left in Detroit and we wish them the best.