Once again HCMA tells the city to screw off

[gnome]

according to their web site, the county runs the water park at chandler park. that is still in detroit? yes?

[iheartthed]

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, but:

Wayne County SEV total: $56,973,417,310
Oakland County SEV total: $67,085,441,782
Macomb County SEV total: $32,006,586,971
Livingston County SEV total: $8,538,149,077
Washtenaw County SEV total: $15,045,690,552
Detroit SEV total: $12,060,196,226 [[roughly 6-7%)

[[from http://www.crcmich.org/Almanac/Taxes/2003sev-tv.html)

So, about 6-7% of the total income to HCMA is coming from Detroit, [[as of 2003) compared to:

Wayne County population total: 1,925,848
Oakland County population total: 1,205,508
Macomb County population total: 831,427
Livingston County population total: 183,118
Washtenaw County population total: 347,563
Detroit population total: 871,121 [[roughly 20%)

[[population is based on 2009 estimates from http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/26163.html)

...about 20% of the population.

I know my numbers are a bit rough, but it suggests that the average Detroiter is contributing less in total dollars than the rest of the region, on average.

......So what does this have to do with Detroit being the single largest taxpayer to HCMA but not having a park maintained by them inside the city?

[Hypestyles]

ah well... more out-county racism in full effect..

[Mkap]

ah well... more out-county racism in full effect..

Out-county, In-county, I don't see much difference really! We all, since the birth of earth, hang with our own, don't we? It all just depends on which side you were brought up on. The 'other side' always seems to be the side that's wrong... I find. Correct me if I'm wrong, will you?

... need to get over the color, gender, religion, political affiliation, and blah blah blah, already. Some things just have nothing to do with it.

[Novine]

Reading comprehension is a challenge for some of you. The question that was asked was:

"Out of curiosity, anybody know which municipality is the biggest tax payer to HCMA?"

My answer was Detroit. Last time I checked, no other city, village or township pays more to HCMA than Detroit. As for the contributions based on tax base or population, it's clear that some areas, like Washtenaw and Livingston County get much more value from their HCMA taxes both in what they contribute dollar-wise and population-wise. It's nice to know that someone in Livonia can get in their car and drive to Kensington to bike. Too bad a significant percentage of Detroit's population doesn't have the same opportunity. That's the point that's being made. For all of the tax dollars collected by HCMA, it doesn't spend a cent within Detroit but no one in HCMA or the suburbs seems to have a problem with that. But if the situation was reversed, you can bet people in the suburbs would be screaming bloody murder.

[Novine]

"Why is it called the "Huron-Clinton Metropark Authority." The answer to your question lies within the answer to that one."

Actually not. Nothing in the state law limits the authority to acquiring land within either rivershed nor limits the park properties to being along either river. In fact, HCMA has owned land that doesn't lie along either river so your misguided belief that it explains their absence of park facilities in Detroit is wrong in law and history.

[Stosh]

Let Ferndale take it over.

[Gistok]

Without getting into the us versus them issue... back when HCMA was formed, Detroit was at around 2 million residents, and densly packed. Initially there was no room within the city for a park, except perhaps for Belle Isle or Rouge Park [[or part of it)... which at the time were well maintained... and for some reason Detroiters felt no need at the time for an HCMA park within the city limits.

I think that both Belle Isle and State Fair Grounds now would drain too much of the HCMA funds to do either any justice and still maintain the rest of the parks with the current [[smaller) taxing funds.

However, I think that Rouge Park on the west side, and Chandler Park on the east side would make for excellent candidates for inclusion in an HCMA scheme [[far fewer costly buildings to maintain).

Rouge Park is especially well suited for being an HCMA park, since it has many of the riparian attributes of many of the other HCMA parks [[except for swimming... no one wants to swim in the Rouge... not yet anyway).

[wazootyman]

Reading comprehension is a challenge for some of you. The question that was asked was:

"Out of curiosity, anybody know which municipality is the biggest tax payer to HCMA?"

You're right. I didn't answer the question exactly, but I still think I made a point. Detroit is getting no more "screwed" than Southfield, Livonia, Troy, Birmingham, Taylor, Woodhaven, Plymouth, Redford, Warren, Royal Oak - and all of the rest of us that have no Metroparks in our city bounds.

My point is that if you add up the populations of all of the cities around that have no Metroparks within their bounds, you've got a population that a) dwarfs that of Detroit and b) pays more, on average, into the HCMA system.

As for the contributions based on tax base or population, it's clear that some areas, like Washtenaw and Livingston County get much more value from their HCMA taxes both in what they contribute dollar-wise and population-wise.

It's not like the parks popped up overnight. A lot of people choose to live in Washtenaw and Livingston counties for this very reason - lots of open land and parks.

It's nice to know that someone in Livonia can get in their car and drive to Kensington to bike. Too bad a significant percentage of Detroit's population doesn't have the same opportunity.

So you're telling me that Detroit is due a Metropark, out of charity? Despite the arguments that HCMA has cash to spare, I highly doubt that, as I can't think of a single person whose property taxes have gone up. My house value has dropped 30-40% in the last 5 years...if that's the case on average, so has the revenue stream to the parks [[or it's on the way to dropping that much, anyhow).

[jt1]

My house value has dropped 30-40% in the last 5 years...if that's the case on average, so has the revenue stream to the parks [[or it's on the way to dropping that much, anyhow).

So you're telling me that your taxable value has dropped 30-40%? I highly doubt that your taxable value has dropped at the same rate that the value of your home has dropped.

[iheartthed]

You're right. I didn't answer the question exactly, but I still think I made a point. Detroit is getting no more "screwed" than Southfield, Livonia, Troy, Birmingham, Taylor, Woodhaven, Plymouth, Redford, Warren, Royal Oak - and all of the rest of us that have no Metroparks in our city bounds.

Well, putting a Metro Park at the fairgrounds would have put one a lot closer to residents in Southfield, Oak Park, Warren, Ferndale, etc., than what they have now. I guess that's why some residents of inner-ring burbs were arguing in favor of putting the park at the fairgrounds.

My point is that if you add up the populations of all of the cities around that have no Metroparks within their bounds, you've got a population that a) dwarfs that of Detroit and b) pays more, on average, into the HCMA system.

Well unlike Detroit, the majority of those cities don't have their own parks systems that they have to fund, in addition to funding HCMA. So maybe Detroit should just opt out of HCMA and use their 6-7% to take care of their own crumbling system?

[johnsmith]

So you're telling me that your taxable value has dropped 30-40%? I highly doubt that your taxable value has dropped at the same rate that the value of your home has dropped.

My taxable value has dropped 39% in the past 3 years.

Fortunately, my locality seems pretty honest about how they calculate the value of and how they tax our real estate property.

[JBMcB]

In fact, HCMA has owned land that doesn't lie along either river so your misguided belief that it explains their absence of park facilities in Detroit is wrong in law and history.

Most of the land acquired by the HCMA is along the Huron or Clinton river valleys, which is why it's called the Huron-Clinton Metropark Authority. It has nothing to do with the law, I'm not sure where you got that from, but it is historically accurate.

In any case, the HCMA was started in the 40's, when the bulk of the region's population was still in Detroit proper, and the band of parks was even more difficult to reach from the major population centers. Nobody seemed to have a problem with the park distribution at the time, and the residents of Detroit had more political power than any surrounding community to do something about the distribution.

However, now people are complaining that they are unevenly distributed for some reason. I don't get it.

[jt1]

My taxable value has dropped 39% in the past 3 years.

Fortunately, my locality seems pretty honest about how they calculate the value of and how they tax our real estate property.

I assume [[and may be wrong) that your locality is the exception, not the rule.

[bailey]

Perhaps all the outrage should be directed to Mayor Bings office?

Commissioners approved another resolution to enter into discussions with Detroit to turn the fairgrounds site at Woodward and Eight Mile into a park. But Jayne Miller, the Metroparks executive director, said Mayor Dave Bing opposes the concept.
Through a spokesman, Bing pointed to Meijer Inc.'s tentative plans to open a store at the site, adding "the fairgrounds hold great potential for economic development in Detroit ... we have to capitalize on the opportunity to bring additional jobs, retail and investment."

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100514/...#ixzz0nucVDciB

[Detroitnerd]

How do you get that Detroit taxpayers are the the largest contributor to the Metroparks? they represent more than the residents of the 5 counties combined? really?

Ummm, Bailey, before we get into that, I would like you to go back in this thread and POINT OUT TO ME exactly where I said that Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks.

[Detroitnerd]

There is a reason the State dumped the fair grounds. They couldn't break even. The, elephant in the room, question needs to be raised as to why that is. Naw, I guess it's better to let the elephant wander, and just stay out of it's way .

No, I guess you have little to no understanding of what state fairs are, their history, and what their purpose is. The purpose of a state fair. These are competitive, recreational gatherings of the population of a state, one big county fair featuring the best of the state.

The whole reason why these fairs exist is because states see value in SPENDING money to bring the people of the state together to celebrate its best. Yes, is that crazy or what? They want to spend money to foster a statewide celebration of togetherness, not to MAKE MONEY.

Jesus, what a country we've become in a few short decades. Screw public purpose, creating a better country, knitting together various areas to unite us with a common sense of purpose. THAT SOUNDS EXPENSIVE! Jesus.

A hint: Not every function in society is or should be profitable. That's why we pay taxes.

[bailey]

A hint: Not every function in society is or should be profitable. That's why we pay taxes.

They shouldn't lose money year after year either.

[bailey]

Ummm, Bailey, before we get into that, I would like you to go back in this thread and POINT OUT TO ME exactly where I said that Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks.

post #18? READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. it was Novines post... I quoted it in its entirety.

[wazootyman]

So you're telling me that your taxable value has dropped 30-40%? I highly doubt that your taxable value has dropped at the same rate that the value of your home has dropped.

A comparable home across the street just sold for 33% less than I paid for my house. According to city records, my taxable value has dropped 27% during the same period. So, no, it's not the same, but we're essentially talking about 30% for both.

Good for my checkbook, not so good for the beneficiaries of my property taxes.

[Detroitnerd]

post #18? READING IS FUNDAMENTAL. it was Novines post... I quoted it in its entirety.

Um, speaking of reading comprehension, why are you ascribing somebody else's position to me? Doesn't that just seem illogical?

[Detroitnerd]

They shouldn't lose money year after year either.

It's not a money-loser, Bailey, it's a public function. In other words, we spend our tax money on fostering a more united state. Show me one state fair that makes a profit, anywhere. I'd like to hear of it.

[bailey]

Um, speaking of reading comprehension, why are you ascribing somebody else's position to me? Doesn't that just seem illogical?

Settle down there tiger... where do I attribute anything to you?

[Detroitnerd]

Settle down there tiger... where do I attribute anything to you?

My mistake. Sorry, Bailey, Novine and I started those posts with similar lines.

But I don't understand this insistence that everything in life must turn a profit. By that mentality, we'd put our children in indentured servitude as soon as they could pick cotton, demanding they not only pay back what it cost to raise them but that they "turn a profit." See what I mean? Not everything in life is or should be profitable -- in terms of MONEY. Sometimes, we profit as a society from spending money, and getting back something more important in return.

That's why it's best not to put everything on a money basis.

[DetLiving]

Perhaps the City of Detroit should withhold their one million dollar payment to the authority.