Suburbs Losing Young Whites To Cities, Brookings Institution Finds

[DetroitPole]

DetroitPole, out of curiosity, which neighbourhood are you and your family moving to?

East English Village. Also, I don't have a "nuclear family" just yet, but I've got a good girlfriend and we're both Catholics so give it a few years and our kids will be going to St. Clare of Montefalco.

[Patrick]

It is happening in DC as well but then again, DC has jobs.

[detroitbob66]

If you are single with no children then thank you for proving my point.

If you have children and voluntarily live in the cass corridor then I feel sorry for your children

NO...I believe that I am still too young to have children....I live all by myself!

[detroitsgwenivere]

There are lots of up and coming, young white professionals who have moved into the city as of late, even if it's been a slow trickle. I remember jumping up and down for years trying to convince family and friends that this was an inevitability, with the green movement starting to gain real momentum. They thought I was nuts too. The numbers don't yet reflect this trend, especially since Detroit and MI have lost population. But I think that when the 2010 census numbers come out, we will find ourselves surprised by the results.

I just hope the people moving into Detroit from the suburbs don't bring too much of their uppity yuppiness with their money. I live here and not the suburbs for a reason. I think that's the REAL fear most of us living down here have.

[ASR89]

East English Village. Also, I don't have a "nuclear family" just yet, but I've got a good girlfriend and we're both Catholics so give it a few years and our kids will be going to St. Clare of Montefalco.

I see. Thank you for your response.

[Gistok]

I just hope the people moving into Detroit from the suburbs don't bring too much of their uppity yuppiness with their money. I live here and not the suburbs for a reason. I think that's the REAL fear most of us living down here have.

Yes, that "uppity yuppiness" could get you shot by just looking at someone in a funny way out in the suburbs.....

Be afraid... be very afraid....

<Sarcasm alert off>

[renf]

Data from the Census Bureau about the size and composition of the city of Detroit are shown below:

Composition of the City of Detroit: 1980 to 2008










Total

Year Hispanic White Black Asian Other Total Pop

# 1980 2.34 33.88 62.69 0.7 0.39 100 1205880

# 1990 2.59 20.78 75.58 0.69 0.35 100 1018352

# 2000 5.22 10.48 80.86 0.92 2.51 100 946314

# 2005 5.54 8.65 83.18 1.19 1.45 100 920675

# 2008 7 8.3 82.46 1 1.24 100 912062











Data from the decennial censues, the American Community Survey for 2005 and 2008 and from the Census Bureau's estimates program for 2005 and 2008.

[bailey]

East English Village. Also, I don't have a "nuclear family" just yet, but I've got a good girlfriend and we're both Catholics so give it a few years and our kids will be going to St. Clare of Montefalco.

Ok, i dont get something here.... not to pick a fight or slam on you in anyway, but I'm curious as you registered some pretty strong objection to the suburbs.... but, how is East English Village any different than GP across mack? or Harper woods across Moross? How is EEV any different than most suburbs of the same vintage with similar housing stock? You're still in a single family home, with a yard, and a garage out back, on a grid of streets isolated from any main roads. EEV is not on any proposed "light rail" route so you're likely to continue having to drive most everywhere to get what you need. And you've just stated that you will send your kid[[s) to a private school over the public schools in your area. I guess what I'm trying to understand is what separates your very suburban existence inside City of Detroit that makes you advocate with such energy...and with such derision towards those living virtually identically elsewhere?

Frankly for me the choice [[like those in the survey) was more "urban" vs "suburban" when I left [[along with most of my graduating class) years ago. Detroit is not, in my mind, very "urban". to me it's just as sprawly and suburban as any suburb....plus exponentially less return for the dollar invested. When I returned here [[a decision I don't totally regret) after living elsewhere in varying scales of "urban"/car-less/walkable areas, Detroit wasn't even on the list of where to live because it isn't any of those. Basically if I was going to have to live a suburban/drive everywhere lifestyle, I didn't see the numbers making any sense to live in Detroit vs. a suburb.

[iheartthed]

Ok, i dont get something here.... not to pick a fight or slam on you in anyway, but I'm curious as you registered some pretty strong objection to the suburbs.... but, how is East English Village any different than GP across mack? or Harper woods across Moross? How is EEV any different than most suburbs of the same vintage with similar housing stock? You're still in a single family home, with a yard, and a garage out back, on a grid of streets isolated from any main roads. EEV is not on any proposed "light rail" route so you're likely to continue having to drive most everywhere to get what you need. And you've just stated that you will send your kid[[s) to a private school over the public schools in your area. I guess what I'm trying to understand is what separates your very suburban existence inside City of Detroit that makes you advocate with such energy...and with such derision towards those living virtually identically elsewhere?

Good question...

Frankly for me the choice [[like those in the survey) was more "urban" vs "suburban" when I left [[along with most of my graduating class) years ago. Detroit is not, in my mind, very "urban". to me it's just as sprawly and suburban as any suburb....plus exponentially less return for the dollar invested. When I returned here [[a decision I don't totally regret) after living elsewhere in varying scales of "urban"/car-less/walkable areas, Detroit wasn't even on the list of where to live because it isn't any of those. Basically if I was going to have to live a suburban/drive everywhere lifestyle, I didn't see the numbers making any sense to live in Detroit vs. a suburb.

I think Detroit's situation is a bit more nuanced than you are giving credit. The areas where the bulk of the population lives in Detroit today is "suburban", but this was not always the case. Look at the density maps of the city over the decades. As recently as the 1970s, 40-50% of Detroit's population lived in densely populated [[10,000+ per sq mile) neighborhoods in or near the Grand Boulevard loop. Today, those same areas are the least densely populated neighborhoods in the city, while the "suburban" areas on the periphery have largely the same density as they did in 1950. Detroit has, for whatever reason, [[apparently) artificially created an environment where densely populated neighborhoods are inconvenient/not attractive/infeasible/whatever.

[Detroitnerd]

I think Detroit's situation is a bit more nuanced than you are giving credit. The areas where the bulk of the population lives in Detroit today is "suburban", but this was not always the case. Look at the density maps of the city over the decades. As recently as the 1970s, 40-50% of Detroit's population lived in densely populated [[10,000+ per sq mile) neighborhoods in or near the Grand Boulevard loop. Today, those same areas are the least densely populated neighborhoods in the city, while the "suburban" areas on the periphery have largely the same density as they did in 1950. Detroit has, for whatever reason, [[apparently) artificially created an environment where densely populated neighborhoods are inconvenient/not attractive/infeasible/whatever.

Interesting and true. One of the biggest elephants in the room on that point is the old DSR. Look at the old maps of the densest areas and you'll see that DSR ran streetcars through those neighborhoods, allowing for the movement of huge amounts of people in a short time. Take away the system for moving all those people, and it's hard to maintain the density. But, naturally, low-density, suburban-style developments can run OK on the car-only system. That's a major factor in my opinion.

[bailey]

Good question...



I think Detroit's situation is a bit more nuanced than you are giving credit. The areas where the bulk of the population lives in Detroit today is "suburban", but this was not always the case. Look at the density maps of the city over the decades. As recently as the 1970s, 40-50% of Detroit's population lived in densely populated [[10,000+ per sq mile) neighborhoods in or near the Grand Boulevard loop. Today, those same areas are the least densely populated neighborhoods in the city, while the "suburban" areas on the periphery have largely the same density as they did in 1950. Detroit has, for whatever reason, [[apparently) artificially created an environment where densely populated neighborhoods are inconvenient/not attractive/infeasible/whatever.

I don't disagree with you on what Detroit "was"...and I think Dnerd has a very valid point about some of the reasons behind what exists now. I was merely speaking about the Detroit of the early/mid 90s thru today. The reality is most of Detroit of today does not generally allow for the "urban" experience that is the draw for the Chicagos of the world. The draw that is behind the "flight" from burb to city that this and other studies are talking about.

[Detroitnerd]

I don't disagree with you on what Detroit "was"...and I think Dnerd has a very valid point about some of the reasons behind what exists now. I was merely speaking about the Detroit of the early/mid 90s thru today. The reality is most of Detroit of today does not generally allow for the "urban" experience that is the draw for the Chicagos of the world. The draw that is behind the "flight" from burb to city that this and other studies are talking about.

Well, there are a few things Detroit does have. For one, it has "good bones" for dense redevelopment. It has large buildings, many of them still in pretty good repair. Land values never rose enough to where developers would want to knock the old stuff down and build new. So there are some assets to rebuild that density upon.

Bear in mind, a lot of the things we have in the city -- lot sizes, alleys, mixed-use buildings, up-to-sidewalk construction -- simply would not be possible or legal in many suburbs today. Add up all the stuff that's grandfathered in and, again, you have the bones for something that appeals to that generational shift in taste. There's a "there" there, if just barely, in many instances.

[bailey]

Well, there are a few things Detroit does have. For one, it has "good bones" for dense redevelopment. It has large buildings, many of them still in pretty good repair. Land values never rose enough to where developers would want to knock the old stuff down and build new. So there are some assets to rebuild that density upon.

Bear in mind, a lot of the things we have in the city -- lot sizes, alleys, mixed-use buildings, up-to-sidewalk construction -- simply would not be possible or legal in many suburbs today. Add up all the stuff that's grandfathered in and, again, you have the bones for something that appeals to that generational shift in taste. There's a "there" there, if just barely, in many instances.

Can't say that I disagree with you there either. However, I would say that your description is the same general meme that's been repeated around here at least since I began paying attention almost 20 yrs ago...and probably a lot longer. If anything the goal of getting to the right "critical mass" to right the city and use it's "good bones" has gotten further away rather than closer.

[DetroitPole]

Ok, i dont get something here.... not to pick a fight or slam on you in anyway, but I'm curious as you registered some pretty strong objection to the suburbs.... but, how is East English Village any different than GP across mack? or Harper woods across Moross? How is EEV any different than most suburbs of the same vintage with similar housing stock? You're still in a single family home, with a yard, and a garage out back, on a grid of streets isolated from any main roads. EEV is not on any proposed "light rail" route so you're likely to continue having to drive most everywhere to get what you need. And you've just stated that you will send your kid[[s) to a private school over the public schools in your area. I guess what I'm trying to understand is what separates your very suburban existence inside City of Detroit that makes you advocate with such energy...and with such derision towards those living virtually identically elsewhere?

Frankly for me the choice [[like those in the survey) was more "urban" vs "suburban" when I left [[along with most of my graduating class) years ago. Detroit is not, in my mind, very "urban". to me it's just as sprawly and suburban as any suburb....plus exponentially less return for the dollar invested. When I returned here [[a decision I don't totally regret) after living elsewhere in varying scales of "urban"/car-less/walkable areas, Detroit wasn't even on the list of where to live because it isn't any of those. Basically if I was going to have to live a suburban/drive everywhere lifestyle, I didn't see the numbers making any sense to live in Detroit vs. a suburb.

You're defining "urban" as some aesthetic or some "feel". So what defines urban living? Living in a tenement or a loft and walking everywhere and its that or bust? What is "urban" to you? Hipsters per capita?

Just because East English Village, and much of the city has a suburban "look" or "feel" to it doesn't make it a suburb. Not to mention, you're talking about inner ring suburbs. These are entirely different places than the endless sprawl we have in this region.

Detroit is an urban area and at one point [[still is, to some degree) the core of our region. Grosse Pointe is a suburb of a few thousand people. Detroit has a downtown, and a mix of commercial, residential, and industrial throughout the city, even today. Grosse Pointe does not.

Detroit seems "unwalkable" largely out of perception [[of people who never lived here) or because of the economic devastation. Even still, in East English Village I can walk to a grocery store, a nice bar, a book store, a library, a church of my denomination, a school, a park, and, yes, liquor stores. In most suburbs you cannot walk anywhere. Park yourself in a cul-de-sac in Macomb Township, or even a side street in Harper Woods for that matter, since you used that as an example, and see how many amenities you can walk to. Even many inner-ring suburbs are almost entirely unwalkable, such as Warren or Southfield.

Moving away from walkability, if I live in some part of Detroit that may strike some people as suburban, I am still paying taxes and maintaining a home and a life in the City of Detroit - center of the region, urban area, metropolis, etc. etc. Some areas of Detroit are more urban "feeling" to some people than others [['Midtown' and the CBD are the obvious examples). By being a good, decent, tax-paying citizen in Detroit I am supporting those more "urban" areas as well. The suburbs have historically been a drain on the City. The City's problems over the past 50 years can be reduced to two factors: loss of jobs and loss of residents. Those people and jobs didn't just disappear. They went to the suburbs.

"it's just as sprawly and suburban as any suburb"
Here is a fun activity: Google "East English Village, Detroit". Look at the map. Then google "Canton, Michigan". Then look at the map. Then replace Canton with Sterling Heights. Then replace that with Farmington Hills. Then tell me that East English Village is as sprawly and suburban as any suburb.

[wolverine]

Here is a fun activity: Google "East English Village, Detroit". Look at the map. Then google "Canton, Michigan". Then look at the map. Then replace Canton with Sterling Heights. Then replace that with Farmington Hills. Then tell me that East English Village is as sprawly and suburban as any suburb.

It is post-war suburban. Still....very suburban. Big yards with tiny homes plunked in the center and distant setbacks. It may seem big city to you, but after you've been there done that in most major American cities what you just asked me to look at is "Anywhere USA"

Shoot man, many people consider this suburban:

[313WX]

You're defining "urban" as some aesthetic or some "feel". So what defines urban living? Living in a tenement or a loft and walking everywhere and its that or bust? What is "urban" to you? Hipsters per capita?

Just because East English Village, and much of the city has a suburban "look" or "feel" to it doesn't make it a suburb. Not to mention, you're talking about inner ring suburbs. These are entirely different places than the endless sprawl we have in this region.

Detroit is an urban area and at one point [[still is, to some degree) the core of our region. Grosse Pointe is a suburb of a few thousand people. Detroit has a downtown, and a mix of commercial, residential, and industrial throughout the city, even today. Grosse Pointe does not.

Detroit seems "unwalkable" largely out of perception [[of people who never lived here) or because of the economic devastation. Even still, in East English Village I can walk to a grocery store, a nice bar, a book store, a library, a church of my denomination, a school, a park, and, yes, liquor stores. In most suburbs you cannot walk anywhere. Park yourself in a cul-de-sac in Macomb Township, or even a side street in Harper Woods for that matter, since you used that as an example, and see how many amenities you can walk to. Even many inner-ring suburbs are almost entirely unwalkable, such as Warren or Southfield.

Moving away from walkability, if I live in some part of Detroit that may strike some people as suburban, I am still paying taxes and maintaining a home and a life in the City of Detroit - center of the region, urban area, metropolis, etc. etc. Some areas of Detroit are more urban "feeling" to some people than others [['Midtown' and the CBD are the obvious examples). By being a good, decent, tax-paying citizen in Detroit I am supporting those more "urban" areas as well. The suburbs have historically been a drain on the City. The City's problems over the past 50 years can be reduced to two factors: loss of jobs and loss of residents. Those people and jobs didn't just disappear. They went to the suburbs.

"it's just as sprawly and suburban as any suburb"
Here is a fun activity: Google "East English Village, Detroit". Look at the map. Then google "Canton, Michigan". Then look at the map. Then replace Canton with Sterling Heights. Then replace that with Farmington Hills. Then tell me that East English Village is as sprawly and suburban as any suburb.

A good example of an REAL urban environment is Manhatten [[or even Brooklyn). The closest you'll get to that in Detroit is the Cass Corridor/Midtown.

Just because a structure is in a "big" city doesn't make it urban architecture. If you want to live in Detroit just to say you live in Detroit, that's fine [[me or no one else really cares). However, to bash the suburbs then move into a suburban neighborhood makes no sense. It just like saying you hate gmabling then you go to the corner store and play a Powerball easy quick.

[DetroitPole]

It is post-war suburban. Still....very suburban. Big yards with tiny homes plunked in the center and distant setbacks. It may seem big city to you, but after you've been there done that in most major American cities what you just asked me to look at is "Anywhere USA"

Shoot man, many people consider this suburban:

EEV is pre-war neighborhood. So I don't know how you can classify it as "post-war suburban".

You just showed how defining something as "urban" or "suburban" is almost entirely subjective.

I've been around the world. No need to be condescending. I know what a city looks like, and not just American ones.

I am incredulous over this region. A neighborhood in the City of Detroit is called "suburban" while someone living in the suburbs will claim to be from "Detroit".

There is nothing "wrong" with what I'm saying. Like I said in the first place, it is my personal preference and my lifestyle. Nothing we are dealing with here is in absolutes. It is just kind of funny how knocking on the suburbs has become an unacceptable prejudice. Still no shortage of Detroit jokes these days though.

[DetroitPole]

A good example of an REAL urban environment is Manhatten [[or even Brooklyn). The closest you'll get to that in Detroit is the Cass Corridor/Midtown.

Just because a structure is in a "big" city doesn't make it urban architecture. If you want to live in Detroit just to say you live in Detroit, that's fine [[me or no one else really cares). However, to bash the suburbs then move into a suburban neighborhood makes no sense. It just like saying you hate gmabling then you go to the corner store and play a Powerball easy quick.

Please cite your sources as to why Manhatten[[sic) is a "REAL" urban environment. Is it just because you think so?

What constitutes a "FAKE" urban environment? Apparently EEV!
Is Queens a "REAL" urban environment?

[wolverine]

Or you could make statistical comparisons as in if East English Village is running around 15,000 ppsm, there are many communities classified as "suburbs" that are clocking the same number or more. Nothing wrong with that, I just find your definition of urban very interesting.

[bailey]

You're defining "urban" as some aesthetic or some "feel". So what defines urban living? Living in a tenement or a loft and walking everywhere and its that or bust? What is "urban" to you? Hipsters per capita?

Yes and no. I, and I think those discussed in the study, would define "urban" to mean what it's generally understood to mean. That being living in a "city". Having a subway, living car free, not livinging in a single family home, having a vibrant area right outside your door, not 15 minutes away by car....etc.

Just because East English Village, and much of the city has a suburban "look" or "feel" to it doesn't make it a suburb. Not to mention, you're talking about inner ring suburbs. These are entirely different places than the endless sprawl we have in this region.

Ok, so your problems are with the ex-urbs..i'm on board, we are way too sprawled out. But you were pretty disgusted with HaperWoods too. Frankly I think there are parts of HP that are almost indistinguishable from EEV.

Detroit is an urban area and at one point [[still is, to some degree) the core of our region. Grosse Pointe is a suburb of a few thousand people. Detroit has a downtown, and a mix of commercial, residential, and industrial throughout the city, even today. Grosse Pointe does not.

Ok, but again, GP is just as close to those things as you are in EEV..and is again in alot of places, virtually indistiguishable from EEV.

Detroit seems "unwalkable" largely out of perception [[of people who never lived here) or because of the economic devastation. Even still, in East English Village I can walk to a grocery store, a nice bar, a book store, a library, a church of my denomination, a school, a park, and, yes, liquor stores. In most suburbs you cannot walk anywhere. Park yourself in a cul-de-sac in Macomb Township, or even a side street in Harper Woods for that matter, since you used that as an example, and see how many amenities you can walk to. Even many inner-ring suburbs are almost entirely unwalkable, such as Warren or Southfield.

Bullshit... Detroit is unwalkable because it IS unwalkable. The suburbs are just newer versions of your neighborhood. You can not live without a car in EEV just like most anywhere else around here, unless you are fortunate enough to live within walking distance to your job..which very few do. I work in troy, and no offense to those that live there, but I'm not going to move there to be able to walk to work. EEV is just as walkable as most places in the inner/medium ring. But really, you may be able to walk to some things... fine. so can I...but I don't think that makes where I live "walkable" in the sense that one would say Chicago is walkable.

Again, the housing stock might be 20 yrs older in EEV, but there are plenty of places in Warren or Southfield that, not to be repetitive, are virtually indistinguishable from EEV.

Moving away from walkability, if I live in some part of Detroit that may strike some people as suburban, I am still paying taxes and maintaining a home and a life in the City of Detroit - center of the region, urban area, metropolis, etc. etc. Some areas of Detroit are more urban "feeling" to some people than others [['Midtown' and the CBD are the obvious examples). By being a good, decent, tax-paying citizen in Detroit I am supporting those more "urban" areas as well. The suburbs have historically been a drain on the City. The City's problems over the past 50 years can be reduced to two factors: loss of jobs and loss of residents. Those people and jobs didn't just disappear. They went to the suburbs.

Well, that might be a debate for another thread, but that isn't what your post above was about. You said....

I'm buying a house in a family-friendly neighborhood of the City. Would I ever move to the suburbs? Noooo. Would sooner move to Mars.
....
I know a box house with aluminum siding in Roseville or a McMansion in Rochester Hills was the dream of boomers everywhere, but the younger white generation has a different value system.

I happen to agree... they do...I did... and it was living in a "City"...not a suburban, single family, drive everywhere neighborhood that was the progenitor of where they grew up. If you're living there out of some desire do social good by paying taxes and being a good neighbor...well fine, but that was not what the study was about, nor what the trend is supposedly about.

"it's just as sprawly and suburban as any suburb"
Here is a fun activity: Google "East English Village, Detroit". Look at the map. Then google "Canton, Michigan". Then look at the map. Then replace Canton with Sterling Heights. Then replace that with Farmington Hills. Then tell me that East English Village is as sprawly and suburban as any suburb

First of all I think you;re being a little apples to oranges in the comparison there. But honestly, other than age of the housing stock and the trees, and the presence of more cul du sacs, I see very little difference between EEV and Sterling heights. lots of single family homes, lots of neighborhoods, lots of driving. I think farmington hills and Canton are what they are...less dense suburban communities catering to those who want to live like that.

Further, just to be clear, I'm not knocking EEV. I think it's prime example of what people think doesn't exist in Detroit. But, I don't think it's particularly "urban" nor will it serve to draw young adults to the City because it's just as suburban as where they are trying to escape from.

[Detroitnerd]

Can't say that I disagree with you there either. However, I would say that your description is the same general meme that's been repeated around here at least since I began paying attention almost 20 yrs ago...and probably a lot longer. If anything the goal of getting to the right "critical mass" to right the city and use it's "good bones" has gotten further away rather than closer.

The subsidies that built the suburbs basically flipped people's perceptions of cities. All the novelty of that shimmering concrete, high speed, being able to go curb-to-curb, etc. takes a while to fade. And generational shifts in taste take a long time to bear fruit. But I think, given the developments you see in certain parts of town, you are starting to see some actual change. Let's see how that light rail things goes ...

[Bearinabox]

For those of us who subject ourselves to the tender mercies of the bus system on a regular basis, EEV has an important advantage over Harper Woods, Grosse Pointe, and even most peripheral neighborhoods of Detroit: it's a relatively compact area served by four bus lines, including one 24-hour route and two with direct connections downtown. For people who work in downtown or Midtown [[WSU, DMC) I'd say it's a better place than most in the metro to live without a car. Now, does that mean living without a car in EEV would be fun or convenient? Probably not. But if car-less is what you want, and metro Detroit is where you want it, there are worse places to look.