What light rail will do for Detroit

[English]

Wow. There is so much raw hatred for other people in this region, in both the city and the suburbs. It's not everyone, but far too many of all races harbor casual racism in their hearts, and it's getting worse with the current economic situation. Some folks seem to hate each other as hard as they can simply because of their race or socioeconomic class, and then expect the region to be blessed and prosper. You can't build anything productive out of hate.

Light rail systems are meant to connect people to goods and services, and to each other. Of course we won't have this in our region until people stop celebrating dysfunction and getting off on social disconnect. And that goes for city and suburb alike.

To quote The Color Purple, until we do right by each other, everything we even think about will fail.

[Caseyc]

Good article which touches upon what is going on in Detroit as well as Cincy, and the differences between public and a public-private type of partnership. Also a link to the Atlantic article which, if you haven't read, you should.

http://americancity.org/columns/entry/2295/

[Bearinabox]

Good article which touches upon what is going on in Detroit as well as Cincy, and the differences between public and a public-private type of partnership. Also a link to the Atlantic article which, if you haven't read, you should.

http://americancity.org/columns/entry/2295/

Interesting, thanks for posting.

[maxx]

Light rail has a much higher capacity than bus service. Having rails physically installed in the pavement also attracts more investment than simply being on a bus route, which can always change for better or worse.

Considering that Detroit has been losing population, I don't think we have to worry about serving a large number of passengers right now. Your other point is that since light rail is more expensive, there is more investment capital available? Only the people of Detroit and/or Michigan will be paying at least half the cost so we still need to look at the bottom line and what we're getting for our money. And how does a bus route change for the worse without the city changing for the worse?

[tallboy66]

Found this view of a Portland light rail car running in the curb lane...can't wait to see this on Woodward!

That's really nice but I hope you can see it from Heaven, because that'll never happen in your lifetime and if it does it will be another PM an empty train going up and down Woodward.

[dtowncitylover]

That's really nice but I hope you can see it from Heaven, because that'll never happen in your lifetime and if it does it will be another PM an empty train going up and down Woodward.

Are you effing kidding me?!

[ghettopalmetto]

Considering that Detroit has been losing population, I don't think we have to worry about serving a large number of passengers right now. Your other point is that since light rail is more expensive, there is more investment capital available? Only the people of Detroit and/or Michigan will be paying at least half the cost so we still need to look at the bottom line and what we're getting for our money. And how does a bus route change for the worse without the city changing for the worse?

Eight hundred seventy thousand people--that's barely anyone! Might as well just throw in the towel!

[bailey]

Eight hundred seventy thousand people--that's barely anyone! Might as well just throw in the towel!

..spread over 140 square miles....of which the "light rail" proposed will travel through 3.

[ghettopalmetto]

..spread over 140 square miles....of which the "light rail" proposed will travel through 3.

Which, I'm sure you know, produces a higher population density than Phoenix, Salt Lake, Dallas, Houston, or any of a multitude of cities that have rail systems under operation and expansions.

Never mind that one-third of Detroit residents don't have cars...yet we somehow expect them to get jobs by enduring bus commutes that exceed 2 hours each way--IF the buses show up.

[bailey]

Which, I'm sure you know, produces a higher population density than Phoenix, Salt Lake, Dallas, Houston, or any of a multitude of cities that have rail systems under operation and expansions.

Never mind that one-third of Detroit residents don't have cars...yet we somehow expect them to get jobs by enduring bus commutes that exceed 2 hours each way--IF the buses show up.

Maybe fixing the buses might be the answer?

[ghettopalmetto]

Maybe fixing the buses might be the answer?

The way you fix the buses is by adding rail.

[bailey]

The way you fix the buses is by adding rail.

yes. but we're not adding "rail". we're replacing a well traveled and well served bus route with tiny spur that may or may not ever get past Grand Blvd.

[ghettopalmetto]

yes. but we're not adding "rail". we're replacing a well traveled and well served bus route with tiny spur that may or may not ever get past Grand Blvd.

I don't recall seeing any sort of proposal to eliminate the 53 bus.

Nor do I recall any sort of rail network that was constructed without first laying a few miles of track. When the Washington Metro opened in 1976, that system was 4.6 miles with 5 stations. I guess they should have just given up on it then, huh?

[bailey]

I don't recall seeing any sort of proposal to eliminate the 53 bus.

Nor do I recall any sort of rail network that was constructed without first laying a few miles of track. When the Washington Metro opened in 1976, that system was 4.6 miles with 5 stations. I guess they should have just given up on it then, huh?

Oh, so we're going to run a bus and a tram on the same line? that seems efficient. Also, speaking of efficient, will we still be running SMART and DDOT buses? Cuz that works out really well.

I'm not saying the entire system must be done at once, I'm saying at least have a plan. DC may have started with 4 miles, but the stated plan in 1968 was to build like 100 miles of it Right now nothing is planned other than M1 phase one and maybe that will eventually lead to phase II getting to 8 mile... maybe..if funding can be lined up. The line to the airport and AA has already been aborted. So, one line... going on ONE road...round and round. Sounds similar to another failed idea around here...can't quite put my finger on it.

[ghettopalmetto]

Oh, so we're going to run a bus and a tram on the same line? that seems efficient. Also, speaking of efficient, will we still be running SMART and DDOT buses? Cuz that works out really well.

I'm not saying the entire system must be done at once, I'm saying at least have a plan. DC may have started with 4 miles, but the stated plan in 1968 was to build like 100 miles of it Right now nothing is planned other than M1 phase one and maybe that will eventually lead to phase II getting to 8 mile... maybe..if funding can be lined up. The line to the airport and AA has already been aborted. So, one line... going on ONE road...round and round. Sounds similar to another failed idea around here...can't quite put my finger on it.

SEMCOG has published a long-term plan, which incorporates both light rail on Woodward and commuter rail to Ann Arbor. While I believe the plan is flawed, it is at least a framework. You should read it sometime.

In my opinion, though, the real problem is that Detroit doesn't have any testicles in its political leadership. So much time and energy is spent making excuses and coming up with reasons why things *can't* be done, that there isn't anything left to put forth any sort of effort.

[Hermod]

The way you fix the buses is by adding rail.

How will "rail" fix the buses? Rail is just a bus on rails. If the buses are mismanaged, so too will the rail be mismanaged.

If the buses are unpleasant or unsafe [[or both) to ride, why will the rail [[with the same riders) not also be unpleasant or unsafe to ride?

[ghettopalmetto]

How will "rail" fix the buses? Rail is just a bus on rails. If the buses are mismanaged, so too will the rail be mismanaged.

If the buses are unpleasant or unsafe [[or both) to ride, why will the rail [[with the same riders) not also be unpleasant or unsafe to ride?

I recommend you search any number of previous threads on this topic for the answers you seek.

But again, with the excuses.... Yet we wonder why Detroit looks like Warszawa in 1945, and the entire region of Southeast Michigan is on the precipice of permanent and catastrophic economic collapse.

Best of luck, Michissippians.

[bailey]

SEMCOG has published a long-term plan, which incorporates both light rail on Woodward and commuter rail to Ann Arbor. While I believe the plan is flawed, it is at least a framework. You should read it sometime.

In my opinion, though, the real problem is that Detroit doesn't have any testicles in its political leadership. So much time and energy is spent making excuses and coming up with reasons why things *can't* be done, that there isn't anything left to put forth any sort of effort.

I have read it. and read the ones from 5 years ago... and the plans years before that when Superbowl preparation fever was running hot. All we got was a needless football themed bridge on 94 and some snazzy paint on some overpasses. Are they still studying rail/freight lines and looking at which engines to buy? Have they hit even one serious benchmark or goal? Now with the congressmommy pulling support for any funding from the federal level for AA line, do they even have the money?

Besides the AA/detroit/airport fantasy line, the regional plan calls for exactly ONE rail line going up Woodward and only as far as TWELVE MILE by 2035. . Every other arterial road is to be serviced by BRT....or basically buses dressed up to look like trains. Well, until 2035...then maybe they'll get some LRT on the line. So 25 yrs from now, they'll maybe be 12-ish miles of track. Dallas has built 50 miles since it broke ground 1990.

The plan is silly and pointless and will result in failure because its silly and pointless. And I agree with you that it's silliness and pointlessness is because we have spineless hacks running the show around here coupled with an indifferent[[at best) population.

"Doing something" just to do it is how we ended up with the people mover.

[daddeeo]

The rail line has been talked about for decades. Problem is no dough...no go.
I used to get envious when I traveled to New York, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal or London and see rail systems there and how convenient it made traveling.
Unfortunately, we missed the boat years ago and with the city shrinking [[population wise) there's neither the will or money to support a project like this.
Guess you can always dream but that's all it will be around here as far as that's concerned.

[dtowncitylover]

The plan will only be materialized if the Regional Transit Authority is implemented. Please call your legislator and urge him/her to vote "yes" on the RTA. The RTA includes 1) building the light rail line and 2) improving service on the arterial bus lines.

As for BRT, that is not true that the other line will be serviced by only BRT. Going to the meeting and hearing the speaker, they said that they would much rather prefer LRT, but BRT right now is cost-effective, but they believe that LRT might be warranted on Gratiot and some other major thoroughfares. Just looking at a plan and actually going to some meetings are two very different things.

[ghettopalmetto]

Unfortunately, we missed the boat years ago and with the city shrinking [[population wise) there's neither the will or money to support a project like this.
Guess you can always dream but that's all it will be around here as far as that's concerned.

And it's exactly that kind of "woe-is-us" thinking--where Detroit doesn't even TRY to improve its lot--that keeps anything from happening. If you're already convinced there isn't money for the project, you're not going to get very far looking for it, are you?

[iheartthed]

And it's exactly that kind of "woe-is-us" thinking--where Detroit doesn't even TRY to improve its lot--that keeps anything from happening. If you're already convinced there isn't money for the project, you're not going to get very far looking for it, are you?

Don't blame him. He's never lived in a region that actually gets things accomplished. Metro Detroit is still having the same conversation they have been having for nearly 40 years now... Just a dog chasing it's tail.

[Hermod]

Don't blame him. He's never lived in a region that actually gets things accomplished. Metro Detroit is still having the same conversation they have been having for nearly 40 years now... Just a dog chasing it's tail.

Most places that have built transit lines through their downtown have something downtown where people want to go and where the transit line expedites them going downtown. Not sure how much traffic the David Broderik Tower generates anymore.

[ghettopalmetto]

Don't blame him. He's never lived in a region that actually gets things accomplished. Metro Detroit is still having the same conversation they have been having for nearly 40 years now... Just a dog chasing it's tail.

I'm not blaming him individually. It's hard to argue that "there's no money" for rail when clearly there is plenty of money available for:

1. Running expensive buses through sparsely-populated suburbs, at the longest average trip lengths in the nation.

2. Construction of I-696

3. Reconstruction of I-75

4. New terminals at Metro Airport

5. Construction of th M-59 freeway

6. Subsidies for Comerica Park and Ford Field

7. Demolition of historic structures

8. Purchase of properties on the East Riverfront, to be handed directly to casinos [[which was completely bungled, thanks to the ever-skillful Dennis Archer)

9. Planned expansion of an enormous exhibition hall that gets used once a year.

[ghettopalmetto]

Most places that have built transit lines through their downtown have something downtown where people want to go and where the transit line expedites them going downtown. Not sure how much traffic the David Broderik Tower generates anymore.

Cobo Hall
Joe Louis Arena
Comerica Park
Ford Field
casinos
offices
theatres
Hart Plaza

Yup. Absolutely nowhere to go.