What light rail will do for Detroit

[Alex Martin]

I remember attending many meetings the past two years run by SEMCOG, SMART, and DDOT about the plan to get better mass transit and being asked for input. Maybe you're just not looking and/or you don't have the connections, which the latter is not your fault.

I have seen proposals for light rail and other transportation schemes going back decades. I recall one such scheme being published in a Detroit magazine back when Detroit had such things.

I remember when they opened the Festival Marketplace in Greektown in the '80s. Know what? Everywhere I turned, there was a police officer. Whoever runs Detroit has known for a long time what needs to be done, but, for whatever reason, doesn't do it. What happened with the People Mover? That was supposed to help.

I had to leave Detroit in 2003. I couldn't handle the automatic gunfire in the middle of the night anymore.

[lincoln8740]

Just ignore that idiotic troll.

oh boy someone has their panties in a bunch because another person dares to think that their environmental issue [[migrant birds, disturbing sediment) is more important than his own [[wind turbines, renewable energy)

The Lake St. Clair Turbine thread has turned into a kindergarten argument
wind!
birds!
wind!
birds!

nice name calling btw

[Bearinabox]

I had to leave Detroit in 2003. I couldn't handle the automatic gunfire in the middle of the night anymore.

So what was with that "fellow Detroiter" stuff in that other thread?

[esp1986]

I have seen proposals for light rail and other transportation schemes going back decades. I recall one such scheme being published in a Detroit magazine back when Detroit had such things.

I remember when they opened the Festival Marketplace in Greektown in the '80s. Know what? Everywhere I turned, there was a police officer. Whoever runs Detroit has known for a long time what needs to be done, but, for whatever reason, doesn't do it. What happened with the People Mover? That was supposed to help.

I had to leave Detroit in 2003. I couldn't handle the automatic gunfire in the middle of the night anymore.

The original plan for the people mover, if I recall correctly, was supposed to be to make it to the suburbs... seeing as it has yet to make it out of downtown, let alone out of the city, I think it is safe to say, that project has failed.

[dtowncitylover]

Back to the original question of what will light rail do for Detroit?

Besides cost money? Nothing.

Ha! Cause you know, there's no investment in Portland, re-investment in Pittsburgh, Dallas, Charlotte, Houston. Those projects have absolutely failed!

Light rail is the first step in a regional mass transit system. Commuter rail, light rail, and a more efficient, UNITED, bus system, will all be a part of this.

[Hermod]

Ha! Cause you know, there's no investment in Portland, re-investment in Pittsburgh, Dallas, Charlotte, Houston. Those projects have absolutely failed!

Light rail is the first step in a regional mass transit system. Commuter rail, light rail, and a more efficient, UNITED, bus system, will all be a part of this.

You mean that if Detroit had kept the Woodward Ave streetcar line it would still have a population of 1.8 mill?

If they rebuild a streetcar line from Woodward to 8 Mile everyone will move back into the city?

[Bearinabox]

You mean that if Detroit had kept the Woodward Ave streetcar line it would still have a population of 1.8 mill?

If they rebuild a streetcar line from Woodward to 8 Mile everyone will move back into the city?

Nobody is saying either of those things, and I'm not sure why you think "everyone moving back into the city" is the goal.

[dtowncitylover]

You mean that if Detroit had kept the Woodward Ave streetcar line it would still have a population of 1.8 mill?

If they rebuild a streetcar line from Woodward to 8 Mile everyone will move back into the city?

Actually yes, I do believe that if Detroit had kept the streetcars lines or built the subway in the 1920s, we would not have been in such a dire situation where are in now. Sure maybe the city would have lost some of the population, but not as much. We would still have the infrastructure, but now we have to rebuild that infrastructure.

I also believe had Detroit won the '68 Summer Olympics, we wouldn't have had the riots, because we would be too busy on civic duty and showing off to the world.

I also believe that Hudson's shouldn't have built Northland or Eastland and I wish it knew the awful impact it had on it's own business, i.e. the eventual closing of downtown Hudson's and re-branding of the store in 2001.

No, not everyone will move back in, but we will attract businesses to do business IN the city. Then, we can attract new residents, whether outstaters, immigrants or out-of-staters.

[dtowncitylover]

I have seen proposals for light rail and other transportation schemes going back decades. I recall one such scheme being published in a Detroit magazine back when Detroit had such things.

Yes, but this is the greatest chance we have had to get a regional transit authority and a mass transit system in a long time. Up until maybe 7 years ago, we had disunity in regional matters and an auto-minded mentality. But now we see we must work together to accomplish things good for the region and we have to diversify our economy.

[Bearinabox]

Actually yes, I do believe that if Detroit had kept the streetcars lines or built the subway in the 1920s, we would not have been in such a dire situation where are in now. Sure maybe the city would have lost some of the population, but not as much. We would still have the infrastructure, but now we have to rebuild that infrastructure.

I don't know what the population would have been; it's reasonable to assume that it would have significantly decreased, as it did in most every large American city in the second half of the 20th century. I do consider it likely that, had we continued to upgrade and invest in a comprehensive, efficient mass transit system rather than shrinking our system and deprioritizing it, Detroit would look and function more like a city and less like a bizarre post-apocalyptic wasteland.

[professorscott]

Someone recently, in this thread, asked a question of the form "what will light rail do for Detroit?", an interesting question which deserves some kind of serious answer. I would prefer, though, to first generalize it: "what will a regional transit system with rapid transit do for metro Detroit?" and then flip it around.

My new question is this: what has not having a regional transit system with rapid transit done to metro Detroit? Since the mid 1980s, every major urban area in North America which did not already have good transit has built and upgraded its systems, every single solitary area, except metro Detroit.

So how are we doing compared to Denver, Minneapolis, Portland, and the other dozen or so regions that have upgraded to modern transit systems, or compared to Chicago, New York, Toronto, Boston and other regions that never dismantled their transit systems as much as we did? Is it fair to say we are doing much worse than all those other regions? Is it reasonable to guess that our failure to provide a basic urban service is one of the things holding us down?

We are drowning, and in order to stop drowning, we need to change something about what we are doing. As a region, we have lots of good parks, lots of good schools, nice neighborhoods all over the place [[inside and outside the City proper), a very good water system, decent airport, so overall there are lots of things going for us. But we are not attracting the young, educated population, and that is the group the new-economy jobs are following. [[Jobs follow talent, not the other way around.)

What we need in this region is a political leadership class with a vision for the future, and not people who just wail and complain that it is no longer 1956. I don't know where to find these leaders, but I hope they emerge, and soon.

[Caseyc]

I have a question about the whole M-1 Rail line....specifically....how exactly is it structured? I realize there is cooperation required between City, State and the Feds....and the City was able to get the Feds to agree that the $125 million in private $$ qualifies for a match on the second leg of the line up Woodward North of Midtown.

But...how does this work? How are operational costs [[and, no doubt, losses) funded? Who owns what assets [[life of rail vs. life of cars, depreciation value etc. etc.) . What exactly are the private imvestors getting out of this, as they obviously have all the risk? Could take the form of development rights along route, guarantee of fare revenue or contractual payment, assesment revenue or something like that. There's a million different ways to do it from leasebacks on the cars, sale of the catenary system, etc. etc.

I'm just curious as to how this is structured. From my limited vantage point....it looks to me like people say "oh wow! These private businessmen are putting up all this money! We will have rail now!"....but I haven't heard a lot of what Penske, Gilbert and Ilitch et al. are getting in return.

anyone?

[Russix]

...
I'm just curious as to how this is structured. From my limited vantage point....it looks to me like people say "oh wow! These private businessmen are putting up all this money! We will have rail now!"....but I haven't heard a lot of what Penske, Gilbert and Ilitch et al. are getting in return.

anyone?

None of their customers, employees or tenants have to ride the 53 Woodward bus along exactly the same stretch of road to exactly the same locations at roughly the same speed.

[Hermod]

What exactly are the private imvestors getting out of this, as they obviously have all the risk? Could take the form of development rights along route, guarantee of fare revenue or contractual payment, assesment revenue or something like that. There's a million different ways to do it from leasebacks on the cars, sale of the catenary system, etc. etc.

Hmmm. We possibly have a solution here. It might not work for Woodward, but could have real possibilities for Gratiot and Grand River. Given the vast amount of deserted, unclaimed, and city-owned land along those routes, we could do it just like they built the steam railroads through unprofitable country at great financial risk. In exchange for a light rail line built from downtown to 8-mile on Gratiot or Grand River, the investor is granted prime development sites along the line. If the line brings back prosperity, the developer makes ginormous profits from the sale or lease of the properties which more than compensates him for the construction cost.. If the line does not bring prosperity, the rail owner is stuck with some pretty worthless real estate and eats the construction cost.

[Alex Martin]

So what was with that "fellow Detroiter" stuff in that other thread?

Dude,

I still live in Metro Detroit. OK? I didn't move to Florida or nothin'.

[Alex Martin]

Yes, but this is the greatest chance we have had to get a regional transit authority and a mass transit system in a long time. Up until maybe 7 years ago, we had disunity in regional matters and an auto-minded mentality. But now we see we must work together to accomplish things good for the region and we have to diversify our economy.

Greatest chance? How do you know that? GM got the streetcars out of the way and built buses. Nobody wanted to diversify anything. Just make sure the auto industry stands in the way of diversification was the goal. The region was the arsenal of democracy during World War II and Chrysler built missiles during the Cold War.

There was no mentality, there was just Big 3 money men saying no to anything that would compete with what they wanted. When you got the money, you get to call the shots. I hope for change but I watched Detroit keep going down, down, over the decades. I can't believe the leaders of the City got together year in and year out and said, Whoa, tax revenues are going down, businesses are moving out. They ignored it. There was a time you could get around the City on a bus, but that was about 40 years ago.

I know they got big plans for Henry Ford and the Detroit Medical Center and whatever they're doing by the Masonic Temple, but it's a big secret how it's all going to work out.

[Bearinabox]

Dude,

I still live in Metro Detroit. OK? I didn't move to Florida or nothin'.

You can live wherever you want, Florida included, but that doesn't answer my question.

[Hermod]

I hope for change but I watched Detroit keep going down, down, over the decades. I can't believe the leaders of the City got together year in and year out and said, Whoa, tax revenues are going down, businesses are moving out. They ignored it. There was a time you could get around the City on a bus, but that was about 40 years ago.

Yes, even as they were phasing out the streetcars, just about everything in the city was available for the cost of a bus fare [[1st bus pay fare and get transfer, second bus show transfer and have it "doubled", third bus to destination). Why is this not possible today? Does anybody think that light rail will not quickly acquire all of the problems that make bus riding so unpleasant in the city?

[Bearinabox]

Yes, even as they were phasing out the streetcars, just about everything in the city was available for the cost of a bus fare [[1st bus pay fare and get transfer, second bus show transfer and have it "doubled", third bus to destination). Why is this not possible today?

The fare and transfer policies aren't the issue. $1.75 for a fare plus transfer is plenty affordable for all but the most destitute of crackheads.

[dtowncitylover]

Greatest chance? How do you know that? GM got the streetcars out of the way and built buses. Nobody wanted to diversify anything. Just make sure the auto industry stands in the way of diversification was the goal. The region was the arsenal of democracy during World War II and Chrysler built missiles during the Cold War.

Where have you been living for the past 50 years? Of course there was a mentality. If there wasn't we would have pressured the region into building a subway! But no, the suburbanites didn't want to pay for a subway they thought black people would bring into the suburbs.

[Russix]

Where have you been living for the past 50 years? Of course there was a mentality. If there wasn't we would have pressured the region into building a subway! But no, the suburbanites didn't want to pay for a subway they thought black people would bring into the suburbs.

The streetcar compaines lobbied enough city council members to kill the subway plan by one vote long before many black people moved to the city and way before any suburb existed.

[detmsp]

This thread highlights a big issue for our region. We focus on problems instead of solutions.

"the white people did this. the black people did that. GM did this. The federal govt did this that and the other"

That's the past, it can't be changed. We now find ourselves and our city in a certain situation... instead of searching for someone to blame that situation on, we should be focusing on where we go from here.

[dtowncitylover]

"Abandoned" or "driven out" in a massive ethnic cleansing?

Uhhh...so now you're accusing the blacks of ethnic cleasning the city? Uhhh...what?!? Let's not change the subject.

[dtowncitylover]

The streetcar compaines lobbied enough city council members to kill the subway plan by one vote long before many black people moved to the city and way before any suburb existed.

True, but by the 1980s the suburbanites did not want any system that made it faster for blacks to get into their neighborhoods.

I remember reading an editorial by LBP in the 1980s, lambasting Young as a crazy person for even suggesting a subway plan.

[Alex Martin]

This is about the color of money and no other color. When Detroit started to go downhill in the 1970s [[you still had people on the sidewalks on Woodward), the plan was already in place. 1980s, 1990s till today. Detroit was gonna be home to the poor people. That was the plan. You think anybody can live in the suburbs with signs like "Starting in the 180's," or starting in the 200's? The suburbs was all about building new houses.

If there's gonna be light rail, you and me won't have no say. It's all about the people with the money. We all are gonna wake up one day and boom, light rail, or not. It's not up to us. People with money wake up one day, "You know, I think I'll build some light rail in Detroit to go with my secret projects by the Masonic Temple." That's all it is.