What light rail will do for Detroit

[ghettopalmetto]

"Dallas Area Rapid Transit must cut jobs and scrap nearly all rail expansion plans for the next 20 years, agency executives told board members Tuesday, citing discouraging revenue forecasts. "

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...t.37eb390.html

You have to wonder if Texas treats their freeways in the same manner.

[FerndaleDamon]

dtown, could you elaborate on that. I was down Woodward for a ballgame not long ago & they're putting concrete down. Do you have any confirmed word on M-1?

[FerndaleDamon]

What I mean is- it seems like it would be easier to imbed rails in asphalt, rather than concrete. I hope something's happening.

[ghettopalmetto]

What I mean is- it seems like it would be easier to imbed rails in asphalt, rather than concrete. I hope something's happening.

A roadway with an asphalt surface still has a concrete slab beneath it.

[bailey]

"Dallas Area Rapid Transit must cut jobs and scrap nearly all rail expansion plans for the next 20 years, agency executives told board members Tuesday, citing discouraging revenue forecasts. "

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...t.37eb390.html

...the article goes on to say...

"Over the last decade or so, DART has had one of the most robust capital programs in the country," Koop said earlier this month, when DART first said it would have to shrink its spending. That kind of growth – indeed traditional light-rail expansion of any kind – might no longer be affordable, she said.
"DART must also re-evaluate its 2030 system plan," Koop said. "At $100 million a mile for light rail, I see little additional 'conventional light rail' in DART's future."
The city and DART will probably have to focus on more affordable modes of transportation, including cheaper types of rail and, for places like downtown Dallas, streetcars.
DART's staff will present recommendations June 22 on how to cut the agency's capital budget.

I guess the 50 miles of rail [[all built in the last 20 years) and an extensive bus network will just have to do for a while. Detroit has what planned again? 10 miles of track on a 35 years?

[Russix]

...the article goes on to say...
I guess the 50 miles of rail [[all built in the last 20 years) and an extensive bus network will just have to do for a while. Detroit has what planned again? 10 miles of track on a 35 years?

50 miles of track? That's only Downtown Detroit to Royal Oak via Woodward, Downtown Detroit to Metro Airport via Michigan Ave/Merriman and Downtown Detroit to Macomb Mall via Gratiot.

[bailey]

50 miles of track? That's only Downtown Detroit to Royal Oak via Woodward, Downtown Detroit to Metro Airport via Michigan Ave/Merriman and Downtown Detroit to Macomb Mall via Gratiot.

..."only"...lol

[dtowncitylover]

dtown, could you elaborate on that. I was down Woodward for a ballgame not long ago & they're putting concrete down. Do you have any confirmed word on M-1?

Well M-1 is not the one financing the construction, obviously it's the State. And since Woodward is a Michigan highway, the State does have some vested interest in the light rail project.

It is unfortunate that I cannot remember what I heard in terms of how it is being reconstructed with rail in mind [[I wanna say something with the curbs), I just know they are doing it so.

[[...don't feed the troll that is bailey, don't feed the troll that is bailey, don't feed the troll that is bailey...)

[bailey]

Well M-1 is not the one financing the construction, obviously it's the State. And since Woodward is a Michigan highway, the State does have some vested interest in the light rail project.

It is unfortunate that I cannot remember what I heard in terms of how it is being reconstructed with rail in mind [[I wanna say something with the curbs), I just know they are doing it so.

[[...don't feed the troll that is bailey, don't feed the troll that is bailey, don't feed the troll that is bailey...)

I'm a troll because I WANT viable regional mass transit?

[dtowncitylover]

I'm a troll because I WANT viable regional mass transit?

No, you are a troll because you can't put it through your thick skull that the plan you want, or lack thereof, would not work. I told you the plan, which is readily available from SEMCOG, but you still won't listen, and still very cheeky. We are not like other cities, we don't have the money, we don't have the leadership you think we have, we have to take it small, nice and easy, until the top politicos and players see that mass transit does work.

[bailey]

No, you are a troll because you can't put it through your thick skull that the plan you want would not work. We are not like other cities, we don't have the money, we don't have the leadership you think we have, we have to take it small, nice and easy, until the top politicos and players see that mass transit does work.

The thing you're missing there with your head in the sand is that I don't disagree. Detroit and SeM likely can not provide competent leadership nor viable regional mass transit and it is exactly for the reasons you state. My point is if we can not do it right, don't waste what little support there is for mass transit on a silly half measure that is doomed to failure. Do it right or just don't do it.

Really though, the whole conversation is moot as the regional board required to put a shovel in the ground is years off now. It certainly isn't happening in an election year...and the coming disaster that is the inevitable republican governor will likely kill it for years to come. Too bad Granholm in her 8 years couldn't have taken a leadership position on that....probably too much to ask of her though. She was only governor and there is nothing she could have done to get the state's largest population center to come together on regional transportation. Hate for her to risk anything by taking a stand on an issue that might have some push back. That would just be crazy for a governor to do!

But frankly, your comment is strikingly similar to the reasons for the scaled back People Mover that was obsolete before it was even finished.....we cant get the region on board, we dont have the money... blah blah. well, as the man said, those that can't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

In about 20 years when M1 [[if its ever built) is running at 2% of capacity and phase II is still not even on the drawing board, then what will be your excuse? L Brooks will likely be retired or be dead by then, you'll have to find a new boogie man to use.

[FerndaleDamon]

Baby steps. Three miles of M-1 rail & see what happens.

[canuck]

I agree, it does seem to be a Detroit area thing [[or a Michigan thing). Quick to demolish, slow to build. I don't know if it's because of the political structure, or because political interests are just a little too aligned to business interests. Or because Detroit [[and Michigan) is too reliant on a single industry.

But in my time living away from Michigan, I notice that politicians here in the NY area take great pains to separate business interests from civic interests. It's not that "what's good for GM is good for America" mentality. The NY Attorney General actively regulates Wall Street despite Wall Street being the biggest taxpayer to the state.

I have been wondering about that and trying to gather from detroiters the reasons for Detroit's standstill. From here, it seems that the Metro vs City conflict is bound to remain the major impediment to redressing the situation. I think the solution is at the state and/or federal levels and probably entails some sort of forced or convened merger, at least an elected council that would oversee regional development. The region needs a long term plan for transit infrastructure and other shared equipment, but it needs to be able to execute within rigid time allotments.

The Dallas situation described earlier came from executive power. I mean if a couple of suburbs decide how the boat should steer, then the possibility anything happens is nil. I agree with Iheartthed that New York and other jurisdictions may be less gullible to the specious argument that what is good for corporate America is good for America. Its also easy to detect from detroiters' posts [I]either cynicism and impotence[/I] or an attachment to the values of a laissez-faire economy. I can understand how forlorn detroiters feel. New Orleans' Katrina was quite shocking to outsiders even though most people knew that the Crescent City was a tough cookie before the natural mayhem. But it is puzzling to think why Detroit is left to itself like an old car, an old boat, an old shack. And the cost to everyone is immense. There is a lot of stress to not only living the iniquity, but also in how citizens identify to their metropolis.

The Kresge plan will certainly help give a new start to the city. Planning on this level will help generate a new sense of purpose and perhaps a new identity.

[canuck]

[QUOTE]

The thing you're missing there with your head in the sand is that I don't disagree. Detroit and SeM likely can not provide competent leadership nor viable regional mass transit and it is exactly for the reasons you state. My point is if we can not do it right, don't waste what little support there is for mass transit on a silly half measure that is doomed to failure. Do it right or just don't do it.

Yes, that is why a plan is needed, and also why a strong executive regional board is needed; one that will act instead of brushing aside Detroit needs vs suburbia's.

Really though, the whole conversation is moot as the regional board required to put a shovel in the ground is years off now. It certainly isn't happening in an election year...and the coming disaster that is the inevitable republican governor will likely kill it for years to come. Too bad Granholm in her 8 years couldn't have taken a leadership position on that....probably too much to ask of her though. She was only governor and there is nothing she could have done to get the state's largest population center to come together on regional transportation. Hate for her to risk anything by taking a stand on an issue that might have some push back. That would just be crazy for a governor to do!

Someone with more character and vision than Granholm in the last year of their term as governor will leave a legacy to the people of Michigan: a new Metro Detroit Council.

But frankly, your comment is strikingly similar to the reasons for the scaled back People Mover that was obsolete before it was even finished.....we cant get the region on board, we dont have the money... blah blah. well, as the man said, those that can't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

In about 20 years when M1 [[if its ever built) is running at 2% of capacity and phase II is still not even on the drawing board, then what will be your excuse? L Brooks will likely be retired or be dead by then, you'll have to find a new boogie man to use

This is what I meant by my previous post about a feeling of impotence vs the powers that be.

[dtowncitylover]

Because if we don't do this, there will not be at least the infrastructure when we realize that mass transit is a money maker.

At least... 1) there will be a Regional Transit Authority in which to look to, and 2) the infrastructure from the M1 Rail to finish the project to Eight Mile.

If we don't create and build this now, we will never do it at all. And that's the scary part. I don't think this plan is scary, it's the future without anything to build off of.

But this is much more than a RTA and light rail, it's also about more efficient bus services and funding of new projects like better, informative bus stops and signs, more bus routes, and hiring of new transit workers [[job creator!!! omg!!!).

[Russix]

Ya know we own a fleet of atleast a dozen natural gas heritage trolleys just sitting in DDOT's yard[[well atleast last time I went by) http://www.detroittransithistory.inf...lley-thumb.jpg
Why the hell aren't these things running now to provide this local loop route on Woodward south of Grand Blvd? Signage and advertising can be just as effective as rails in the street.

[ghettopalmetto]

YSignage and advertising can be just as effective as rails in the street.

If that were the case, do you think dozens of other cities would be spending billions of dollars to build light rail systems?

Not to say that DDOT's and SMART's signage isn't shambolic [[at best), but a sign post can be there one day and gone tomorrow--doesn't exactly do much to cause development along the route.

[Russix]

True, but instead having to wait years for this magical local loop service, it can be running tomorrow until the rails of development are laid down.

[ghettopalmetto]

True, but instead having to wait years for this magical local loop service, it can be running tomorrow until the rails of development are laid down.

We've had this discussion in the past. If you talk to the people in Ottawa--the only place of which I'm aware has done this--conversion of the "rapid" bus network to rail has involved only great expense and disruption. It's not as easy as getting up one morning and deciding to lay rail down in the street. Whatever gets developed, you better assume it's going to be there at least 50 years. In which case, it better damn well work to spur development and increase the density of development in the urban core. Otherwise, the next 50 years in Detroit will be even longer than the previous 50.

[Tig3rzhark]

It seems to me that at the end of the year, it will be difficult for any type of regional transit to be built within metro Detroit, let alone to have a true regional authority to handle transit.

-- There is little political will regionally.

-- Republican governor next year

-- Continued financial problems in Detroit

I hope that the RTA bills that are in Lansing will pass, but I have little confidence that it will. The metro area definitely needs it.

[maxx]

We've had this discussion in the past. If you talk to the people in Ottawa--the only place of which I'm aware has done this--conversion of the "rapid" bus network to rail has involved only great expense and disruption. It's not as easy as getting up one morning and deciding to lay rail down in the street. Whatever gets developed, you better assume it's going to be there at least 50 years. In which case, it better damn well work to spur development and increase the density of development in the urban core. Otherwise, the next 50 years in Detroit will be even longer than the previous 50.

So these trolleys in storage could be on the road in days and determining whether there is the patronage for that route. The trolleys could go all the way to Eight Mile, but I suppose that would sabotage the shorter rail system.

[ghettopalmetto]

So these trolleys in storage could be on the road in days and determining whether there is the patronage for that route.

That would be an apples-to-oranges comparison. Study after study has concluded that more people will ride rail than buses. Extrapolating ridership data from a hokey trolleybus route to predict light rail ridership is half-assed methodology, at best. The two modes have incredibly different performance and service characteristics--conducting such an experiment introduces too many variables at once, and any resulting conclusions might as well be tossed in the bin.

[Russix]

So these trolleys in storage could be on the road in days and determining whether there is the patronage for that route. The trolleys could go all the way to Eight Mile, but I suppose that would sabotage the shorter rail system.

Kinda pointless considering we already have a bus route for that. But instead of waiting till 20XX we could have this local loop service running today for everyone who's not so asinine that they need to see rails in the streets to figure it out.

[Hypestyles]

I was in cleveland this past weekend. I stayed in the midtown area [[I guess), and I rode the city bus for a short stint.. the way they had it set up, the buses rode a dedicated lane[[s) in the middle of the road, separated by low-lying concrete dividers, and they had bus stop islands along the pathway. an automatic ticket kiosk was there, you could get an all day pass for $5.00 [[regular cost was $2.25 for a one-way trip without a transfer).. not saying it's a super-perfect system, but Detroit and vicinity could have this if they wanted to..

[professorscott]

I was in cleveland this past weekend. I stayed in the midtown area [[I guess), and I rode the city bus for a short stint.. the way they had it set up, the buses rode a dedicated lane[[s) in the middle of the road, separated by low-lying concrete dividers, and they had bus stop islands along the pathway. an automatic ticket kiosk was there, you could get an all day pass for $5.00 [[regular cost was $2.25 for a one-way trip without a transfer).. not saying it's a super-perfect system, but Detroit and vicinity could have this if they wanted to..

The key phrase is "if they wanted to". Nobody in our political class is willing to invest in even something like true Bus Rapid Transit as you describe it here, much less anything better. Basically the politicians running this region into the ground think as follows: buses are a necessary evil, to transport poor people, mostly within the city. Cars are king; we'll just keep widening roads, since it's working so well thus far.