What light rail will do for Detroit

[canuck]

Found this great film on Rethink Detroit dated february 15:

I checked to see if a link to this PBS documentary is on DetroitYes but didnt find it, so I'm posting it hoping some more folks get to see it. It's also a lot less dramatic than the stuff we are used to seeing about Detroit...

http://www.rethinkdetroit.org/2010/0...o-for-detroit/

[Isle_of_fun]

Thank You canuck
As a former Detroiter who used the bus service daily, I could not begin to imagine living in that city without it.
It would be beneficial to anyone anywhere to view this film with an open mind and maybe some open pockets to help fund an advanced transportation system.
Just the thought of getting from one place to the next within one hour versus four hours while using safe green technology should inspire anyone to think about what this film could inspire!

[Hermod]

Thank You canuck
As a former Detroiter who used the bus service daily, I could not begin to imagine living in that city without it.
It would be beneficial to anyone anywhere to view this film with an open mind and maybe some open pockets to help fund an advanced transportation system.
Just the thought of getting from one place to the next within one hour versus four hours while using safe green technology should inspire anyone to think about what this film could inspire!

"Safe green technology"???

Last time I looked the streetcars used electricity generated by "clean green" coal.

Maybe you are going to put sails on the roofs of the cars or possibly solar collectors? Maybe the cars can be pulled by steam locos fired with old corn cobs?

Taxpayers, open your pockets. Time when it made economic sense for a corporation to build transit and have it pay for itself out of the farebox is long, long past.

[Stosh]

Absolutely








Nothing. Seriously.

[professorscott]

That first bit is silly, Hermod, though your second point is correct. Mass transit is very "green" compared to the most common mode of transportation in metro Detroit - the private automobile with 1 to 2 occupants. The crucial question is not how much energy is expended in moving a vehicle [[or where the energy comes from), since nobody is driving the car in order to move the car. The crucial question is how much energy is expended in moving each person, since it is the people we are trying to move.

By the way, if any of you are engineers or engineering-minded, there are massive gains yet to be realized in automobile efficiency, since just about 1% of the gasoline your car uses is expended in transporting you.

But public transportation is very efficient in terms of how much energy is used to move the people, compared to a car. Now, some of you living near the remote ends of a SMART bus line might think the bus is running empty, since near the remote ends they do. But overall SMART and DDOT's average passenger loads represent much less energy use than if all those people were riding in one or two person cars, and rail transit typically does even better [[much better) than that.

Now as to your other point, yes. Metro Detroit funds transit at about 1/3 the level [[per capita) of regions of similar size, density and population. If we want decent transit, we will have to pay for it, and we means we.

Cheers,
Prof. Scott

[Hermod]

That first bit is silly, Hermod, though your second point is correct. Mass transit is very "green" compared to the most common mode of transportation in metro Detroit - the private automobile with 1 to 2 occupants. The crucial question is not how much energy is expended in moving a vehicle [[or where the energy comes from), since nobody is driving the car in order to move the car. The crucial question is how much energy is expended in moving each person, since it is the people we are trying to move.

But, Professor, the same thing operates for freight and that is possible right now without any massive infusion of taxpayer dollars. All it would take is a government ukase to discourage the use of the single driver and prime mover moving the single container [[semitrailer).

We have the freight rail net in place already. Just require that highway demons can only operate from point of origin to the nearest intermodal yard. The container then uses the rails with two or three diesel engines to move a couple of hundred containers rather than one diesel engine [[and driver) to a container. The highway demon then picks the container up from the intermodal and delivers it a few miles to the destination.

Plus, the intercity highways would last much, much longer without the constant pounding of the big trucks.

[killthebeer]

street cars. I'd support the sort of slapped together stuff you see in Cuba and other places, too. In fact, encourage it. Heck of a lot cheaper to pull and old bus back end with a truck, for a few thousand dollars, than spend billions on light rail that is never going to get paid for.

we all need to slow our roll, or all these reasons for going green won't matter, because GHGs will have messed things up too badly.

[lincoln8740]

It would be beneficial to anyone anywhere to view this film with an open mind and maybe some open pockets to help fund an advanced transportation system.
!

"open your pocket" is all the suburbs hear when Detroit has another great idea.

[DetroitDad]

No, those days are over. It's not "take out your pocketbooks", it's "role up your sleeves". they need you to show them how you got your pocketbook. Teach, work, sweat That's the real go.

"open your pocket" is all the suburbs hear when Detroit has another great idea.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Very interesting documentary. However, I don't think light rail will ever happen in Detroit. According to the documentary, manufacturing came first then the street car. There is no manufacturing or industry in Detroit right now for mass transit to follow. The cost is too great and few people in this region see that vision. To be fair I know a co-worker who is very bullish on mass transit, yet I seriously doubt he'd be willing to sacrifice even a penny in tax increases to make it happen. Bottomline, the documentary was very neat, but unrealistic here.

[dtowncitylover]

LOL!!!

If you don't see or want light rail "to happen" in Detroit, then you can kiss a newer and better Detroit goodbye. We will never have the Detroit of the 1950s, but we sure want a livable, urban, nicer Detroit that can be the pride of the state. And without a public transit system that include both a reliable bus system and a light rail network, in conjunction with a commuter rail system under a Regional Transit Authority, Detroit will not and cannot be a city.

[Crumbled_pavement]

LOL!!!

If you don't see or want light rail "to happen" in Detroit, then you can kiss a newer and better Detroit goodbye. We will never have the Detroit of the 1950s, but we sure want a livable, urban, nicer Detroit that can be the pride of the state. And without a public transit system that include both a reliable bus system and a light rail network, in conjunction with a commuter rail system under a Regional Transit Authority, Detroit will not and cannot be a city.

You and I do not disagree on this point. But where do you see the political will to make this become reality? Sounds like a pipe dream unless this region goes through an enormously radical transformation.

[ghettopalmetto]

Very interesting documentary. However, I don't think light rail will ever happen in Detroit. According to the documentary, manufacturing came first then the street car. There is no manufacturing or industry in Detroit right now for mass transit to follow. The cost is too great and few people in this region see that vision.

Where is it written that you have to be a soot-covered metropolis in order to build streetcars?

Streetcars cost too much, but a $1.5 billion expansion of 7 miles of I-94 is affordable. A $1.5 billion widening of I-75 in Oakland County is affordable. A zillion dollars for a convention center that gets used once a year is affordable.

For the price of the I-94 project, you could build a 100-mile streetcar network that could carry THOUSANDS more people, do it in far less space, decrease the need for useless parking lots, and boost land values, making more redevelopment projects feasible.

But hey, Detroit knows what it's doing. It's the rest of the world that's wrong.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Where is it written that you have to be a soot-covered metropolis in order to build streetcars?

Streetcars cost too much, but a $1.5 billion expansion of 7 miles of I-94 is affordable. A $1.5 billion widening of I-75 in Oakland County is affordable. A zillion dollars for a convention center that gets used once a year is affordable.

For the price of the I-94 project, you could build a 100-mile streetcar network that could carry THOUSANDS more people, do it in far less space, decrease the need for useless parking lots, and boost land values, making more redevelopment projects feasible.

But hey, Detroit knows what it's doing. It's the rest of the world that's wrong.

Dude, I'm sold. Let me just look in my pocket and see if I have $1.5B to put in the coffers to get the ball rolling. Oh wait, I don't have it. Bad news then, looks like you're going to have to convince someone other than me. In fact, a whole lot of other people than me. Good luck with that. If it means anything, I agree mass transit would push this region forward. This area however is backwards. That's not exactly news though. This has been going on for 50 years and I don't think we will fix the issue in this thread. People that want mass transit and such move to other cities. You know why? Because they know as great of an idea as it might be, Detroit still lacks the political will to make it happen.

[EMG]

For the price of the I-94 project, you could build a 100-mile streetcar network that could carry THOUSANDS more people, do it in far less space, decrease the need for useless parking lots, and boost land values, making more redevelopment projects feasible.

That is a very true statement, but I've bolded and reddened the key word.

In real life, what happens is a not-even-statistically-significant portion of the population which actually lives along the streetcar network uses it - at a greatly subsidized rate and at the expense of the vast majority of the population, who will never use it but nonetheless get stuck paying the bills to keep it running. The whole idea of "thousands more people" therefore becomes a mute point.

The wise voter, assuming he's given a choice, recognizes any proposal for "mass transit" as the scam that it is - and votes to nip it in the bud at the earliest opportunity.

[SpartanTom]

That is a very true statement, but I've bolded and reddened the key word.

In real life, what happens is a not-even-statistically-significant portion of the population which actually lives along the streetcar network uses it - at a greatly subsidized rate and at the expense of the vast majority of the population, who will never use it but nonetheless get stuck paying the bills to keep it running. The whole idea of "thousands more people" therefore becomes a mute point.

The wise voter, assuming he's given a choice, recognizes any proposal for "mass transit" as the scam that it is - and votes to nip it in the bud at the earliest opportunity.

Thousands more WOULD use it. Rail is much higher capacity than highway, and more efficient. Your "real life" situation is completely incorrect, as bus lines feed the main rail lines as well as park and ride lots, etc. It is very valid, the opposite of a "moot" point.

The wise voter will see the benefit in a mass transit system and vote for one. I just wrote my state senator today urging him to vote for the legislation for a regional transit authority. People voting to nip any forward thinking, progressive idea in the bud are why this state is in shambles. Keep with the same old ways, get the same old results.

[ghettopalmetto]

In real life, what happens is a not-even-statistically-significant portion of the population which actually lives along the streetcar network uses it - at a greatly subsidized rate and at the expense of the vast majority of the population, who will never use it but nonetheless get stuck paying the bills to keep it running. The whole idea of "thousands more people" therefore becomes a mute point.

What confidence interval did you use in your rigorous statistical analysis?

You're right--Detroit is just fine the way it is. It's the rest of the world that's wrong.

[bailey]

What confidence interval did you use in your rigorous statistical analysis?

You're right--Detroit is just fine the way it is. It's the rest of the world that's wrong.

You keep coming back to that retort and for some reason what is not getting through to you is that very few people think that Detroit is just fine. The problem is the solution as proposed is a fucking joke...its a novelty that will serve very few. It's not going to make jobs in the suburbs more accessible to those in the city without cars. It's not going to cause some great migration of people or businesses from Big Beaver or Southfileld...or where ever to Woodward. It's not going to make bar-hopping any easier, because someone is still going to have to drive to the line. It's a street level people mover. It's inevitable failure as anything other than a parking shuttle will simply reinforce the damage to the idea of real regional mass transit that the original People Mover did. The only saving grace here is at least the first part [[and likely only part to get built) is getting lots of private funds.

[dtowncitylover]

The wise voter, assuming he's given a choice, recognizes any proposal for "mass transit" as the scam that it is - and votes to nip it in the bud at the earliest opportunity.

What the f*** is a scam? A Ponzi scheme is a scam. Prince Ndebele of Nigeria is a scam. This is an attempt, and I dare say one of our last attempts, to finally get mass transit and a regional transit authority for Metro Detroit.

Can I yell? Allow me...
-THIS WILL CREATE JOBS
-THIS WILL CREATE INVESTMENT
-THIS CAN, AND GOD-WILLING, GROW DETROIT
-WE ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD IN TERMS OF MASS TRANSIT, let's stop building effing roads and DO SOMETHING!!

[Bearinabox]

What the f*** is a scam? A Ponzi scheme is a scam. Prince Ndebele of Nigeria is a scam. This is an attempt, and I dare say one of our last attempts, to finally get mass transit and a regional transit authority for Metro Detroit.

Can I yell? Allow me...
-THIS WILL CREATE JOBS
-THIS WILL CREATE INVESTMENT
-THIS CAN, AND GOD-WILLING, GROW DETROIT
-WE ARE THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD IN TERMS OF MASS TRANSIT, let's stop building effing roads and DO SOMETHING!!

Don't worry about EMG; he's long gone from the region and doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about. The people you should be worried about, in light of the bills that need to be passed to create the regional authority, are the ones who are members of the Michigan Legislature and don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about.

[iheartthed]

That is a very true statement, but I've bolded and reddened the key word.

In real life, what happens is a not-even-statistically-significant portion of the population which actually lives along the streetcar network uses it - at a greatly subsidized rate and at the expense of the vast majority of the population, who will never use it but nonetheless get stuck paying the bills to keep it running. The whole idea of "thousands more people" therefore becomes a mute point.

So? Detroit homeowners and renters are stuck paying for parks located in the suburbs that the majority of them don't use.

[bailey]

So? Detroit homeowners and renters are stuck paying for parks located in the suburbs that the majority of them don't use.

so? I'm stuck paying for a Zoo I never go to and a community college system [[WCCCD) 2 people from my city went to.

People are taxed to pay for a lot of shit they don't use. If you want to start playing that game, Detroit is going to come out a loser every day of the week and twice on sunday.

[Warrenite84]

If Detroit and Oakland County stop trying to exert control, then I believe chances are good that a regional transit systen is in our future.

I was initially annoyed that the M-1 Rail project got bumped again to start construction in late 2011 instead of this fall. After further thought, it makes sense to slow down plans so our elected officials can build support among Metro Detroiters to approve funding for the operation and expansion of the planned Rapid Transit Master Plan in an expanding economy.
[[Only if we are now coming out of the Great Recession).

It would be a much tougher battle to raise taxes for anything in a poor economy.

I prefer the project get built A.S.A.P., but it seems that so many delays keep popping up like mushrooms lately.

[stasu1213]

If Detroit and Oakland County stop trying to exert control, then I believe chances are good that a regional transit systen is in our future.

I was initially annoyed that the M-1 Rail project got bumped again to start construction in late 2011 instead of this fall. After further thought, it makes sense to slow down plans so our elected officials can build support among Metro Detroiters to approve funding for the operation and expansion of the planned Rapid Transit Master Plan in an expanding economy.
[[Only if we are now coming out of the Great Recession).

It would be a much tougher battle to raise taxes for anything in a poor economy.

I prefer the project get built A.S.A.P., but it seems that so many delays keep popping up like mushrooms lately.

I is not going to happen. I had said it last year and I am saying it this year

[detroitbob]

Found this view of a Portland light rail car running in the curb lane...can't wait to see this on Woodward!