lake st clair wind farm discussion

**Traveller1** · May-03-10, 11:19 AM

As others have mentioned, Ontario, Canada is it's own providence and country, therefore they can do what they wish without having any American opinion stated.

**GPCharles** · May-03-10, 11:26 AM

A "view" is not a property right, although subject to zoning regulations. For a close by example, there are a number of 2 story buildings on the "Hill" in GP Farms that lost their side windows when another 2 story building was built next door right on the lot line.

lincoln8740 · May-03-10, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

why are you such a crank about this? seriously? How is your view obstructed by a windmill 5 miles away? you seem to think it's an affront to your person to have to see a windmill somewhere off on the horizon and you made a snide comment about those who don't live on the water shouldn't have an opinion. Are people NOT allowed to have differing opinions on this? I'm curious if you were just as indignant at the presence of the water towers that are clearly visible on the Canadian side from our side. Maybe you cant see them from your manse on SCS's gold coast? If you can, did you write your congressman when they put those up?

I merely returned your snideness in kind...and pointed out that I likely use the lake far more than you do from land [[thus do have an interest)...and you call me rude? Perhaps I shouldn't have stooped to your level of discourse, but I am not above a sardonic quip or two when poked.

Finally... I am voicing my opinion. I'm not objecting to what appears to be to me, nothing objectionable.

I was being rude? All I offered was a compromise with an opinion and I get "shut the fuck up"?

Its a simple fact that people pay more in taxes to live on the water and most bought for the view and yes a view is not a right absolutley correct, but for local boards and counties the guy paying upwards of $20,000.00 a year in property taxes gets listened to a hell of a lot more than the guy with a 12 foot boston whaler in a tiny well in Grosse Pointe Farms.

Unfair? maybe
A Reality? Definitely

**bailey** · May-03-10, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by lincoln8740

I was being rude? All I offered was a compromise with an opinion and I get "shut the fuck up"?

Its a simple fact that people pay more in taxes to live on the water and most bought for the view and yes a view is not a right absolutley correct, but for local boards and counties the guy paying upwards of $20,000.00 a year in property taxes gets listened to a hell of a lot more than the guy with a 12 foot boston whaler in a tiny well in Grosse Pointe Farms.

Unfair? maybe
A Reality? Definitely

Oh c'mon, your "if you don't live on the lake you don't get a say" comment was meant the same way. I was just more direct. besides, was your "You should voice your opinion that you don't care about the views from your little boatwell." any less rude? Further, you have no idea the size nor cost of my boat....yet you chose to [[twice now) imply it was something insignificant and clearly as a dig against me personally. For the record, and simply to qualify the issue in terms you seem to require as the ante to have an opinion on this, and by no means do I claim to own a mega yacht, but its purchase price exceeded significantly the median home price in SCS. Combine that with my home in GPF that does derive it's value in part from its proximity to the lake, and for which I'd put my tax bill up against yours in SCS, I'd say we're on pretty even ground.

One of the complaints of the post I was responding to..to which you took such personal umbrage...included a fear about the threat to recreational boating. As a boater with a significant investment in LSC and Great lakes boating in general, I have never bought the argument that this or similar projects would have a significant impact on boating UNLESS it makes large areas of the lake[[s) no-go zones. Which has not been proposed. As I said, as proposed, I do not get what all the fuss is about. Especially from those who would be so far removed from a direct impact...ie home owners practically at the horizon in SCS.

Basically, I would contend that the placement and restrictions has a greater potential impact [[if worst case scenarios are realized) on boating than on your far removed view and/or your home's value.

Is it fair that you won't have a say in what the Canadian government does in this matter? Yes. Because I doubt you would afford Canadians the same veto power you now demanding.

lincoln8740 · May-03-10, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Oh c'mon, your "if you don't live on the lake you don't get a say" comment was meant the same way. I was just more direct. besides, was your "You should voice your opinion that you don't care about the views from your little boatwell." any less rude? Further, you have no idea the size nor cost of my boat....yet you chose to [[twice now) imply it was something insignificant and clearly as a dig against me personally. For the record, and simply to qualify the issue in terms you seem to require as the ante to have an opinion on this, and by no means do I claim to own a mega yacht, but its purchase price exceeded significantly the median home price in SCS. Combine that with my home in GPF that does derive it's value in part from its proximity to the lake, and for which I'd put my tax bill up against yours in SCS, I'd say we're on pretty even ground.

One of the complaints of the post I was responding to..to which you took such personal umbrage...included a fear about the threat to recreational boating. As a boater with a significant investment in LSC and Great lakes boating in general, I have never bought the argument that this or similar projects would have a significant impact on boating UNLESS it makes large areas of the lake[[s) no-go zones. Which has not been proposed. As I said, as proposed, I do not get what all the fuss is about. Especially from those who would be so far removed from a direct impact...ie home owners practically at the horizon in SCS.

Basically, I would contend that the placement and restrictions has a greater potential impact [[if worst case scenarios are realized) on boating than on your far removed view and/or your home's value.

Is it fair that you won't have a say in what the Canadian government does in this matter? Yes. Because I doubt you would afford Canadians the same veto power you now demanding.

First off there is no reason to go tit for tat with a stranger on the internet hell I could be some guy that goes to wayne state that lives on second and selden or I could be one of biggest private landlords in the city-ya just never know!!

All I was saying was that the people that live in Grosse Pointe Farms and Grosse Pointe Shores will be totally against this. Couple that with the fact we have a Republican Governor coming into office in November this plan has Zero chance of going anywhere.

Then I pointed out that yes you have a say in whether this plan goes forward but your input doesn't carry as much weight as those that pay the high property taxes in the shores/farms. Most of those people are also very politically connected which leads me to believe that this plan is DOA.

And once again, as I stated in my first post, if the project is put in Canadian Waters I have no problem with what they do, they are a sovereign nation and can do what they wish but as soon as the project touches Michigan waters--bye bye windmills

Retroit · May-03-10, 07:00 PM

I bet if a Grosse Pointe windmill mogul wanted to build a windfarm in front of his house on the lake, he could do it.

..well, unless the state wanted to built their own a mile downstream!

**detroitdoc** · May-03-10, 10:08 PM

We are destroying this world we live in. It's the only Earth we have. We can't continue to spew pollution from coal and create a bi-product from Nuclear Power that we have no idea how to get rid of. We bury it in the ground in barrels not designed to last the lifetime of material inside.

Wind energy is always available. It's clean. Those new turbines don't make a squeek- I've stood right under quite a few. Personally, I'd love to sit and look out my window each morning and watch them spin. It would give me joy to look out and see we're finally trying to do the right thing for our children, grandchildren...

And as for the birds- if we continue our current path, there will be no birds. They'll be dead from the pollution.

**Goose** · May-04-10, 12:24 AM

start the reactor... free Mars!!!

**Hermod** · May-04-10, 04:45 AM

As far as the views go, there was a lot of opposition to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel when it was built. Now t is considered a scenic attraction. It is pretty impressive at night when it is all lit up.

These windmills will probably be a gigantic boon to the recreational fishing industry. Any time you add "structure" to the water, you get a massive increase in fish. The fishermen will love them [[so long as they don't make a "no-go" restricted zone around them).

**DanFromDetroit** · May-04-10, 07:01 PM

As a sailor, Grosse Pointer [[former) and electrical engineer who works with "renewable" energy solutions for transmission and generation companies, I just want to say the amount of stupid in this thread is amazing. Windmills here on Lk. St. Clair make just as much sense as onshore ones do ie. along the coast of Lk. Huron from Bayfield on north to Southampton. The NIMBY sentiment is just as strong from Canadian land owners on back to the US and all the folk on Lakeshore drive. The only reason the Canadian firm is pushing this so hard is because of the extremely low USD/CAD rate so that if they lock in their equipment purchase rates [[even with a 10% variance) along with Canadian green power subsidies they stand to make huge profits when the USD climbs back. They don't care where it goes so long as they get a go ahead now or very soon. Boating exclusion zones are much larger than you think and this stands to hurt the sport sailing/fishing/tourism market pretty badly but this is a small lobby compared to "green" for profit lobby in CA. How do I know this? My companies Canadian division is involved in the bidding as a supplier.

**BVos** · May-04-10, 11:06 PM

So let me get this straight: nautical folks from GP and up the lake got all teary eyed and nostalgic when the 7 Sisters met their demise. But now we're all bent out of shape over wind turbines? Which way do you want it?

**Gistok** · May-05-10, 12:57 AM

BVos, there was no place in the Grosse Pointes where you could see the 7 Sisters... the 5 "Tree City USA" towns forest canopy prevented that.

**Hermod** · May-05-10, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

BVos, there was no place in the Grosse Pointes where you could see the 7 Sisters... the 5 "Tree City USA" towns forest canopy prevented that.

Back in the days before GPS and LORAN were common, boaters used visual landmarks for guidance. You didn't see the "seven sisters" from your house in Grosse Pointe, but you could see them [[and use them) and other landmarks [[Colony Tower in Pearl Beach) while boating.

lincoln8740 · May-05-10, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

As a sailor, Grosse Pointer [[former) and electrical engineer who works with "renewable" energy solutions for transmission and generation companies, I just want to say the amount of stupid in this thread is amazing. Windmills here on Lk. St. Clair make just as much sense as onshore ones do ie. along the coast of Lk. Huron from Bayfield on north to Southampton. The NIMBY sentiment is just as strong from Canadian land owners on back to the US and all the folk on Lakeshore drive. The only reason the Canadian firm is pushing this so hard is because of the extremely low USD/CAD rate so that if they lock in their equipment purchase rates [[even with a 10% variance) along with Canadian green power subsidies they stand to make huge profits when the USD climbs back. They don't care where it goes so long as they get a go ahead now or very soon. Boating exclusion zones are much larger than you think and this stands to hurt the sport sailing/fishing/tourism market pretty badly but this is a small lobby compared to "green" for profit lobby in CA. How do I know this? My companies Canadian division is involved in the bidding as a supplier.

Wait a minute you are telling me that "green" corporations are actually only interested in making a profit?

What? I thought they just wanted to save the earth and stop those "evil corporations"?

**GPCharles** · May-05-10, 10:52 AM

There were about 200 in attendance, but apparently no one from this forum, other than me. So did anyone other than me attend?

**bailey** · May-05-10, 03:43 PM

First off there is no reason to go tit for tat with a stranger on the internet hell I could be some guy that goes to wayne state that lives on second and selden or I could be one of biggest private landlords in the city-ya just never know!!

Perhaps you ought to take your own advice on that before you start making snide comments about "little wells" and "11 ft boston whalers"? However, I can only take as true your assertion that you live on the water..and in SCS....or, were you lying when you said, "I live in SCS on the water and pay a shitload of taxes and bought the house because of unobstructed views of the water"

All I was saying was that the people that live in Grosse Pointe Farms and Grosse Pointe Shores will be totally against this. Couple that with the fact we have a Republican Governor coming into office in November this plan has Zero chance of going anywhere.

I didn't realize that Michigan got a veto on Canada's usage of the lake in this matter. Frankly though, if I were a GPS resident with lake front property I would be more concerned about stopping the weekly infestation of , loud, drunk, jobbienooner wannabe, idiots that anchors off my seawall every nice day in the summer than if Canada might one day put some windmills out on the horizon. I would think if those GPShores lake front owners had this almighty 'pull' to regulate the lake of which you speak, they'd be able to stop the current, demonstrable and continuing nuisance they already face.

@GPCharles- Perhaps you can enlighten the board and dispel some myths?

@Dan... are you just saying it's just a battle of the NIMBY groups, or are you saying wind energy is a joke and not worth pursuing at all? Further, and really the only concern I'd have would be the exclusion zones, as proposed it really doesn't seem that significant. What is your understanding of the no-go boundaries?

lincoln8740 · May-05-10, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I didn't realize that Michigan got a veto on Canada's usage of the lake in this matter.

And now for the third time,,, you know what it's easier to just quote myself when I said it the second time:

"And once again, as I stated in my first post, if the project is put in Canadian Waters I have no problem with what they do, they are a sovereign nation and can do what they wish but as soon as the project touches Michigan waters--bye bye windmills"

banging head against wall

**bailey** · May-06-10, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by lincoln8740

And now for the third time,,, you know what it's easier to just quote myself when I said it the second time:

"And once again, as I stated in my first post, if the project is put in Canadian Waters I have no problem with what they do, they are a sovereign nation and can do what they wish but as soon as the project touches Michigan waters--bye bye windmills"

banging head against wall

Yes that point is clear. My original comment....and the one to which you got so personally upset ...was about this CANADIAN project. No one anywhere at any time ever has proposed placing these in American waters. So perhaps you can enlighten me...what is the fuss about?

**GPCharles** · May-06-10, 09:39 AM

There were at least two representatives of Canadian opposition groups in attendance. They are fighting these on both Lake Erie and Lake St. Clair. The forum speakers repeatedly acknowledged that this is taking place in Canada and US residents will have little input. The forum speakers also acknowledged that at this point the Ontario government is not even accepting proposals. This is a long way off, it at all.

**jsmyers** · May-06-10, 01:46 PM

The idea that people are flat out opposed to wind power on the Lake is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time.

Concerned that turbines will be placed extremely densely? Worried that they be sited in a way that harms migratory birds? Upset that they might not be able to fish right under the tower? Pissed that Michigan isn't getting into the act too? Hoping that when the state gets off their ass, they'll get a fair royalty for the natural resources?

-All of these are reasonable reactions.

But "Oh noes...the property values!!!!" Is just about the most immature reaction I could image.

It reminds me of the people who said things like: "We're not racist; we are just concerned that integration will hurt our property values."

It is pure and simply one thing: Bullshit fear of change.

You've got to be one of two things to hang on to the notion that it isn't a good idea to put wind turbines near your home:

1) Mentally ill enough to believe that nothing has to change. Ignoring peak oil, ignoring climate change that may dry up "your" lake, believing that SE Michigan is the bee's knees as is, and that the rest of the transit-riding, information economy world has it all wrong. "Somethings got to change and get better, we keep doing the same thing over and over....right?"

2) Selfish: "Wind turbines are fine, but not from where I can see them...my property values are too high. Put them somewhere else, like somewhere where the people don't complain or aren't listened to when they do." It pissed me off when RFK Jr. got his sailor suit in a bunch about the Cape wind farm, and it really boils my blood to read:

Thank god that the people that live on lakeshore are extremely powerful and that the lake is the property of the State of Michigan which means this will be a very localized issue and hence will never see the light of day.

In other words, thank God that the one tenth of one percent of the Michiganders that live near the lake are all rich and will be able to tell the other 99.99% of the state to shove it when it comes to the state's natural resources.

New Economy? Who cares, right? Some rich bastard won't have to see a wind turbine from his expensive house! Sounds like a tradeoff to me. Oil will still be cheap enough as long as you're alive, and climate change won't dry up the lake until we are gone, so who cares about the future! I don't know my grandkinds who will be born around 2040. Why should I care about them?

More seriously now:

Wind turbines are beautiful. Just like light houses and the Mackinac Bridge. I loved driving between Milwaukee and Fond du Lac the other summer [[info, picture). Most of those turbines weren't there when I lived in FdL for most of 2000. I loved seeing those 2 test turbines when I came south over the Mackinac Bridge on my way home from College [[MTU). When I went to Germany in 2002 I saw a lot of gorgeous scenes like this.

Where Henry Ford or Ransom Olds afraid of change? No! If more people in Michigan stopped embarrassing their ancestors with their selfish, head-in-the-sand, never-change attitudes, then maybe we could stop having discussions like this:

http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=5509

The ability to put wind farms in the shallow waters of Eastern Lake Erie, Lake St. Clair, and Saginaw Bay, as well as above the farms of The Thumb and the south central counties is one of the huge things that SE Michigan has going for it. But apparently some people would rather borrow money from the Chinese to buy oil the Saudis, Iranians, and Russians so that they can motor around freely in their pleasure boats for the time being.

**SpartanTom** · May-06-10, 01:59 PM

jsmyers... I applaud your post. Very well stated.

I don't think the lakeshore residents realize they do not, in fact, own the lake. It is public property of the State of Michigan. If we can extract clean, renewable energy from this public resource, we will. The [[self-described) "powerful" lakeshore residents will not have a say in the matter. Or they will be merely listened to so they can vent, and the project will go on regardless.

**jsmyers** · May-06-10, 02:03 PM

It also drives me nuts because I would be much more likely to want to buy a house if the view included turbines. So much of the reaction against it is based on fear of change and fear of the unknown.

lincoln8740 · May-07-10, 02:52 PM