Canada offers $550 million for new U.S.-Canada span

[Lowell]

Very well stated Fastcarsandfreedom.

[herbpowell]

I'd like to see the reaction of some of you if the government opened up a business next to yours [[or your employer) that competed with YOU.

I don't think we are going to see Matty end up like Randolph and Mortimer in Coming to America if a second second span gets finished. If it's good for the region to a have a second span and Canada won't let Maroun build it to clog up Huron Church any more, than why do we care what happens to Maroun financially? It's good for the region, good for the city, good for the state and Canada is footing most of the bill, what's the problem?

@Gistok: No one is going to believe that Maroun would follow through on that promise after the bridge is built. He's going to cost himself millions out of spite? I think Maroun's next move is selling, his hand is being forced a bit.

[Retroit]

It's good for the region, good for the city, good for the state and Canada is footing most of the bill, what's the problem?

And why would Maroun's new bridge not also be so? I presume no areas of Windsor will ever get "clogged up" when the DRIC is built?

Also, Canada is not "footing the bill"; the toll-payers are [[via payments to the bondholders that buy the bonds being offered by Canada). The same people who would pay for Maroun's.

Welcome to the forum.

[kraig]

It amazes me in the electronic age that news sometimes seems to stop at the border...a significant benefit to the campaign of subterfuge by Maroun and company. On here there is speculation that shovels will never go in the ground, and only a couple of weeks ago Mrs Maroun was dispatched to a news conference to suggest that once the Canadian government is done "stealing" the Ambassador Bridge--they will kill DRIC. As for shovels being in the ground, site preparation, demolition and land acquisition is underway in Windsor for the extension of the 401 Freeway to the DRIC bridge--a multi-billion dollar highway project that IS underway--including construction of overpasses, noise abatement barriers and related infrastructure--this work has begun in earnest and full Freeway construction will be underway by 2011--the land transfer from the City of Windsor to the Canadian Federal Government for the Canadian Plaza has also happened--so this is very much a live and ongoing initiative on the Canadian side of the equation--despite whatever fog Maroun and his supporters attempt to unleash in the media in SE Michigan.

What amazes me is that in this era of increased security vigilance--this hasnt been sold as an important security and prosperity initiative from the start. With a single venue hosting such a large portion of the trade between Canada and the U.S. [[more trade flows between the U.S. and Canada over the Ambassador Bridge than the entire annual trade between the U.S. and Japan) we are very much a juicy target for terrorists--if nothing else, DRIC means greater security...moreover, it's about building for the future--there's a novel idea.

I am conservative ideologically--and am not someone who is apt to spit in the eye of private enterprise--but Maroun has made his bed--after running afoul of the various levels of government in Canada he chose to spit in the eye of taxpayers in Michigan with his blatant disregard for the terms of the Gateway project [[a project designed to enhance the viability of his private business)--while an argument may be made that a publically funded bridge may ultimately harm his enterprise--an argument may also be made the Maroun is attempting to maintain a monopoly on the most important trade corridor in the Americas. If someone is willing and able to demonstrate how the Ambassador Bridge provides greater value and operational excellence versus the closest competing public venue [[the Blue Water Bridge), please go ahead and make your argument.

Doesn't U.S. Customs provide security at all the borders?

[fastcarsandfreedom]

And why would Maroun's new bridge not also be so? I presume no areas of Windsor will ever get "clogged up" when the DRIC is built?

Also, Canada is not "footing the bill"; the toll-payers are [[via payments to the bondholders that buy the bonds being offered by Canada). The same people who would pay for Maroun's.

Welcome to the forum.

Actually Retroit--as I've stated--unlike the Ambassador Bridge which drops traffic onto a city street [[Huron Church Road/Rte 3), DRIC will be connected to the 401 Freeway--which will skirt south of the city along the current Talbot Road/Rte 3 alignment.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

Doesn't U.S. Customs provide security at all the borders?

USCBP provides Port-of-Entry Security on the U.S. side--the Canadian equivilent Agency, CBSA, provides the same on the Canadian side. Both Agencies do an excellent job of protecting the border--but it does not mean the bridge is shrouded in some sort of special safety net. At the risk of sounding like an alarmist, I'm certain the Port Authority Police in NYC did an excellent job of securing the WTC as well. My point is that having so much trade through a single conduit makes the Region a choice 'target' and in no way did I suggest that security does not exist in the present day. Applying imagination and common sense would suggest that having redundancy built into the trade corridor makes the Region less attractive--and--should the unthinkable happen--less vulnerable...even a naturally occuring event could remove or impede access to a crossing--having redundancy is a no-brainer.

[East Detroit]

I'd like to see the reaction of some of you if the government opened up a business next to yours [[or your employer) that competed with YOU.

Ask the guys at Ford.

[Retroit]

Actually Retroit--as I've stated--unlike the Ambassador Bridge which drops traffic onto a city street [[Huron Church Road/Rte 3), DRIC will be connected to the 401 Freeway--which will skirt south of the city along the current Talbot Road/Rte 3 alignment.

That's a valid point. Maybe Canada could build a more appropriate access road to the Ambassador Bridge with that $550 million.

At the risk of sounding like an alarmist, I'm certain the Port Authority Police in NYC did an excellent job of securing the WTC as well. My point is that having so much trade through a single conduit makes the Region a choice 'target' and in no way did I suggest that security does not exist in the present day. Applying imagination and common sense would suggest that having redundancy built into the trade corridor makes the Region less attractive--and--should the unthinkable happen--less vulnerable...even a naturally occuring event could remove or impede access to a crossing--having redundancy is a no-brainer.

But if having redundancy reduces vulnerability, how do you explain 9/11, when two "conduits of trade" were simultaneously demolished? If any nut job terrorist group is stupid [[and smart) enough to blow up one bridge, I'm sure they could blow up two.

Also, welcome to the forum.

[herbpowell]

And why would Maroun's new bridge not also be so? I presume no areas of Windsor will ever get "clogged up" when the DRIC is built?

Also, Canada is not "footing the bill"; the toll-payers are [[via payments to the bondholders that buy the bonds being offered by Canada). The same people who would pay for Maroun's.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks [[read it for years rarely comment)


I don't care about the traffic on Huron Church, but we can't tell the Canadians how to feel on this one. There's risk involved and they are fronting the money the state can't/won't. I mean if I open a restaurant the customers aren't footing the bill by eating there. Most people even Maroun think a second span would be good for the region. We have to work with the Canadians on this one, DRIC is the most realistic option there is. Maroun has made a lot of money with his monopoly Canada has given him a fair offer, it's time to move on.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

Thanks for the welcome Retroit--I've been around for a long time--I posted regularly on the old site, but have only recently come around to re-asserting my presence here.

The $550 million on the CDN side is coming from the Federal government. The highway components of the project are the responsibility of the Ontario government [[The MTO, equal to MDOT). The extension of the 401 to the DRIC bridge is already going to cost in the $2 billion neighborhood--displacing several hundred homes and business but skirting the most heavily developed areas of the city. A review of the geography of the area around the Ambassador Bridge plaza would suggest a much greater monetary and logistical cost if the highway were extended to it instead--as well as interupting the flow of traffic and trade without a viable alternative.

With respect, your suggestion that two bridges, a significant distance apart, can somehow be compared directly to 1 and 2 WTC is an apples to oranges comparison. Still, even if one is to accept that argument there remains the possibility of other disruptions [[construction, natural disasters, etc) as well as the future viability of the region with the increase in border crossing capacity. While we may differ on our political viewpoints, I would argue that most contributors here would agree that closer ties between the two countries are of mutual benefit--limiting travel between the two cities to the exisiting circa 1920s/1930s crossings has the opposite effect.

[SpartanTom]

I'd like to see the reaction of some of you if the government opened up a business next to yours [[or your employer) that competed with YOU.

You're comparing the construction of an international crossing on the busiest trade route between the U.S. and Canada to the Govt. opening up next to some mom and pop shop? Get a clue.

[Huggybear]

Well, at least we can quantify the ill will Mr. Maroun has garnered.

Maroun was a monopolist on truck traffic, he charged high prices, and he made a lot of money. And he took a huge subsidy in the form of the Gateway Project - $204 million for a project whose only stated objectives were [[a) connecting a freeway to a private infrastructure element; [[b) accommodating a second private span; and [[c) building some b.s. welcome center [[source: MDOT project documentation, except for the "b.s." part, which is my editorial comment).

Despite the nice treatment he got from the people of Michigan, he ticked off a lot of people on both sides of the water; attempted to adversely possess public land; flouted the state, claiming he was a federal instrumentality; flouted the federal government; lost any hope of getting a permit; and has nowhere for his second span to land.

Sorry - I must have missed the sympathetic part. What was it?

[kraig]

http://www.freep.com/article/2010043...s-bridge-offer

Another NAFTA suit.

[Detroitnerd]

While not a fan of Maroun, I do think that he may have one final trump up his sleeve in the event all else fails....

A new public downstream bridge would have to sell bonds in order to pay for the bridge. Well that would involve bankers on Wall Street. All Maroun would have to do is make it clear that his old [[fully paid for) bridge would undercut the tolls of the new public bridge to the point where the new bridge would have trouble meeting the debt obligations on its' bonds.

Sounds pretty simple... and legal....

Except for that induced demand. Build it and people will use it, even if it's pricier, rather than wait for an hour among fragrant empty garbage trucks.

[iheartthed]

I'd like to see the reaction of some of you if the government opened up a business next to yours [[or your employer) that competed with YOU.

The real question is why does a private company own an international border crossing?

[kraig]

Except for that induced demand. Build it and people will use it, even if it's pricier, rather than wait for an hour among fragrant empty garbage trucks.

That's when I take the tunnel. Pretty much no waiting to get through and a couple of minutes for customs.

[BShea]

My attempts to answer all the DRIC questions, based on current facts:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/section

Are there other questions about the current DRIC situation that should be asked?

I didn't include a section on why a private company owns an international border crossing. I know Canada tried several times [[starting in the 1970s or '80s, I believe) to seize the bridge somehow, but lost in court. As far as I can tell from what I read online, the Ambassador Bridge was built privately from the start and no one seemed to mind. It was publicly traded for a long period, as well. I don't know enough about the history, or trading regulations, to know why Canada or the U.S. government couldn't have purchased the shares when it was public. Doesn't sound like anyone in the U.S. government [[GOP or Dem) has ever cared that it was privately owned. The feds on both sides basically run it by the presence of their customs and border officers.

[ferntruth]

I'd like to see the reaction of some of you if the government opened up a business next to yours [[or your employer) that competed with YOU.

Then it's settled. If I ever own a bridge that is an international crossing and the Government opens a new bridge next to mine, you can feel free to say "I told YOU so"....

...until then, get a grip.

[BShea]

Canada's transport minister talks to Crain's about some of the details about the $550m loan offer to Michigan, but won't say if his country will subsidize the short of revenue shortfalls that have hurt other P3 toll projects:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/100439966

Could Michigan be left paying both interest on the loan, and the cost of project debt obligation/operation expenses if traffic doesn't meet expectations and the tolls aren't enough? Those details are still to be worked out.

[Bobl]

Build the bridge, with Canadian help. Then, perhaps, Canada can help US Customs people learn how to be civil and polite.

[Buy American]

Matty is playing the Arab card.

...he learned from the best "racial" card players in Detroit.

[Meddle]

Why is that funny? You're using hundreds of millions of taxpayer money to compete with private enterprise. Seems like Maroun is getting ripped off.

If you're going to post here Matty, you should use your own name.

[Retroit]

The real question is why does a private company own an international border crossing?

Because a private company built it!

[Gistok]

Why is that funny? You're using hundreds of millions of taxpayer money to compete with private enterprise. Seems like Maroun is getting ripped off.

Ummm..... a new bridge is also competing with the publicly owned Detroit-Windsor Tunnel and the publicly owned Bluewater Bridge in Port Huron.

When it comes to international bridge crossings, Maroun is the exception, rather than the rule.

However, with Canada offering $550 million in loans [[to be repaid by tolls for the new crossing).... that means that Michigan will have an added debt towards getting bonds to pay off their portion of the new bridge. Potential bondowners may not like the fact that of the bridge tolls... $550 million of those tolls will be required towards the Canadian repayment.

This could make the bonds riskier, and therefore require a lower grade [[higher interest) bonds.

[kraig]

Ummm..... a new bridge is also competing with the publicly owned Detroit-Windsor Tunnel and the publicly owned Bluewater Bridge in Port Huron.

When it comes to international bridge crossings, Maroun is the exception, rather than the rule.

However, with Canada offering $550 million in loans [[to be repaid by tolls for the new crossing).... that means that Michigan will have an added debt towards getting bonds to pay off their portion of the new bridge. Potential bondowners may not like the fact that of the bridge tolls... $550 million of those tolls will be required towards the Canadian repayment.

This could make the bonds riskier, and therefore require a lower grade [[higher interest) bonds.

I'm glad that you mentioned this. It could be a big mistake on the part of Granholm and the canadians to propose this. If the house and the senate don't like the terms of the loan, they may reject them. If that's done, the DRIC would be hard-pressed to get other funding. What looks to be the DRIC's Knight in Shining Armor could turn out to be its Grim Reaper.