Downtown under siege

**R8RBOB** · April-26-10, 07:54 AM

According to this story....
http://www.freep.com/article/2010042...ime-on-upswing

Downtown, to which some might consider it Detroit's last fort is experiencing having its walls breached. For years city leaders have said time and time again that downtown is safe but now downtown is experiencing its share of crime and its increasing. As a frequent visitor to downtown back in the 90's, I always felt safe. I experienced one incident of crime in the all the years I went downtown [[car window smashed, items taken back in 94)

When the casinos entered the scene, the environment changed. I remember seeing lots of smashed car window glass decorating the pavement. Add lots and lots of homeless people and broken gamblers well I can see why crime is up in downtown Detroit. What does Warren Evans do? Past chiefs made sure that the fort was surrounded by troops but Evans with reduced numbers have displaced many of the troops into the neighborhoods. If downtown falls what is left for Detroit?

Stosh · April-26-10, 08:36 AM

Petty crime is up everywhere. What makes you think downtown is an exception?

**R8RBOB** · April-26-10, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Petty crime is up everywhere. What makes you think downtown is an exception?

Never said it was an exception. What I said was that for years Detroit's mayor and city leaders made it a mission to keep downtown safe for all in particular Detroit's non-residents so that they would return. No one is coming to check out Brightmoor so there is no need for a armed presence there.

Crime is everywhere. I didn't get oblivious overnight. We can't have non-residents thinking that they are going to get robbed if they go to Greektown.

Stosh · April-26-10, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Never said it was an exception. What I said was that for years Detroit's mayor and city leaders made it a mission to keep downtown safe for all in particular Detroit's non-residents so that they would return. No one is coming to check out Brightmoor so there is no need for a armed presence there.

Crime is everywhere. I didn't get oblivious overnight. We can't have non-residents thinking that they are going to get robbed if they go to Greektown.

I'd imagine that plan is out the window then. I think that there's probably more pressing needs in the neighborhoods that demand attention, versus the average tourist or gambler. There's been a big disparity between downtown and neighborhood coverages through the years, you are correct. But I've seen some resentment for that policy here on this board in the past.

Maybe the casinos and the CBD can just get a special assessment together to buy themselves some more police? Ticket surcharge for every Tiger, Wing and Lion game? There's only so much to go around these days...

Say a 1 dollar ticket surcharge for every game downtown. Each Lions game generates say 50 grand. 8 games = 8 cops a year. More or less.

**R8RBOB** · April-26-10, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

I'd imagine that plan is out the window then. I think that there's probably more pressing needs in the neighborhoods that demand attention, versus the average tourist or gambler. There's been a big disparity between downtown and neighborhood coverages through the years, you are correct. But I've seen some resentment for that policy here on this board in the past.

Maybe the casinos and the CBD can just get a special assessment together to buy themselves some more police? Ticket surcharge for every Tiger, Wing and Lion game? There's only so much to go around these days...

I agree that the neighborhoods should have always been the first priority. Mayor Young decided that the city should invest in downtown at the expense of the neighborhoods. We are witnesses to what happen to many of Detroit's neighborhoods as been discussed in other threads.

In regards to the casinos, I believe it was a mistake to have them scattered in different areas. You have three areas where criminal activity can fester instead of one area that could be controlled.

**econ expat** · April-26-10, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Maybe the casinos and the CBD can just get a special assessment together to buy themselves some more police? Ticket surcharge for every Tiger, Wing and Lion game? There's only so much to go around these days...

Say a 1 dollar ticket surcharge for every game downtown. Each Lions game generates say 50 grand. 8 games = 8 cops a year. More or less.

The added revenue from the casinos was supposed to help 'rebuild' Detroit.
The added revenue from income tax.... [[ And let's allow cities over a million population charge a higher income tax rate)
Oh and ticket surcharges. Old news. When Fetzer sold/gave Tiger Stadium to Detroit, a ticket surcharge was added to improve and maintain the stadium. We can see how that worked out.

Seems like paying more in the form of a surcharge right now is no different than giving to a beggar. Sure, the $ will be 'appreciated' but will the problem be lessened in any way? And will the money REALLY be used as intended? [[just as one can wonder if a handout to a beggar will be spent on food or used for something else, like alcohol or drugs.)

Stosh · April-26-10, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by econ expat

The added revenue from the casinos was supposed to help 'rebuild' Detroit.
The added revenue from income tax.... [[ And let's allow cities over a million population charge a higher income tax rate)
Oh and ticket surcharges. Old news. When Fetzer sold/gave Tiger Stadium to Detroit, a ticket surcharge was added to improve and maintain the stadium. We can see how that worked out.

Seems like paying more in the form of a surcharge right now is no different than giving to a beggar. Sure, the $ will be 'appreciated' but will the problem be lessened in any way? And will the money REALLY be used as intended? [[just as one can wonder if a handout to a beggar will be spent on food or used for something else, like alcohol or drugs.)

Yes, of course. What the hell was I thinking? This IS Detroit, after all, and not to be trusted with a nickel....

Whatever.

**1KielsonDrive** · April-26-10, 01:40 PM

[quote=R8RBOB;140630]Never said it was an exception. What I said was that for years Detroit's mayor and city leaders made it a mission to keep downtown safe for all in particular Detroit's non-residents so that they would return. No one is coming to check out Brightmoor so there is no need for a armed presence there.

Crime is everywhere. I didn't get oblivious overnight. We can't have non-residents thinking that they are going to get robbed if they go to Greektown.[/quote]
R&R, I didn't mean to imply you said something else with my last post. I was just responding quickly off of the top of my head. You are correct in your assessment above.

DetroitPole · April-26-10, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Never said it was an exception. What I said was that for years Detroit's mayor and city leaders made it a mission to keep downtown safe for all in particular Detroit's non-residents so that they would return. No one is coming to check out Brightmoor so there is no need for a armed presence there.

Crime is everywhere. I didn't get oblivious overnight. We can't have non-residents thinking that they are going to get robbed if they go to Greektown.

I do not believe it amounts to "displacing" police to the neighborhoods. One square mile of a 130-odd square mile city should not receive such disproportionate security while the rest of its residents - who are paying the astronomical taxes for police protection and other city services - are left to languish.

I believe the opposite is true - police presence is finally being brought to where it needs to be - the neighborhoods. Everyone has a right to be safe and secure in the city, but it is a borderline injustice to give precedence to, as you said yourself, non-resident visitors. There hundreds of thousands of residents of this city who need better police protection - residents of Brightmoor and other non-glamorous neighborhoods included.

In fact, the city has overall experienced far less crime YTD than last year, as a result of focusing on high crime areas. It stands to reason, too. These criminals are not materializing out of thin air. In many cases they are coming from high crime neighborhoods - and they are most certainly not confined to there.

There is no question that downtown needs to be safe and make a good impression on visitors. However it also does us no good if it is just a Potemkin village while the rest of the city is a war zone.

**R8RBOB** · April-26-10, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

I do not believe it amounts to "displacing" police to the neighborhoods. One square mile of a 130-odd square mile city should not receive such disproportionate security while the rest of its residents - who are paying the astronomical taxes for police protection and other city services - are left to languish.

I believe the opposite is true - police presence is finally being brought to where it needs to be - the neighborhoods. Everyone has a right to be safe and secure in the city, but it is a borderline injustice to give precedence to, as you said yourself, non-resident visitors. There hundreds of thousands of residents of this city who need better police protection - residents of Brightmoor and other non-glamorous neighborhoods included.

In fact, the city has overall experienced far less crime YTD than last year, as a result of focusing on high crime areas. It stands to reason, too. These criminals are not materializing out of thin air. In many cases they are coming from high crime neighborhoods - and they are most certainly not confined to there.

There is no question that downtown needs to be safe and make a good impression on visitors. However it also does us no good if it is just a Potemkin village while the rest of the city is a war zone.

Now this is why we have forums. To bounce thoughts back and forth. You are correct in your assessment but you should have kept reading. You would have caught this comment from me.

I agree that the neighborhoods should have always been the first priority. Mayor Young decided that the city should invest in downtown at the expense of the neighborhoods. We are witnesses to what happen to many of Detroit's neighborhoods as been discussed in other threads.

I started this thread referring to Downtown Detroit as the "last fort" because for years the city had a huge police presence to keep the visitors of downtown safe at the expense of the neighborhoods who were the victims of the predators.

IMO because of the increased numbers of reported crimes, Mayor Bing is going to tell Chief Evans that they are going to need more officers to patrols the areas of downtown because downtown is Detroit's last fort or "jewel." The problem is that Chief Evans has reduced numbers so that means.....

Stosh · April-26-10, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Now this is why we have forums. To bounce thoughts back and forth. You are correct in your assessment but you should have kept reading. You would have caught this comment from me.

I started this thread referring to Downtown Detroit as the "last fort" because for years the city had a huge police presence to keep the visitors of downtown safe at the expense of the neighborhoods who were the victims of the predators.

IMO because of the increased numbers of reported crimes, Mayor Bing is going to tell Chief Evans that they are going to need more officers to patrols the areas of downtown because downtown is Detroit's last fort or "jewel." The problem is that Chief Evans has reduced numbers so that means.....

Naturally. What other choice does he have? Either raise revenue or batten down the hatches. And that's across the board. Not just downtown.

**1KielsonDrive** · April-26-10, 01:38 PM

[quote=Stosh;140627]Petty crime is up everywhere. What makes you think downtown is an exception?[/quote]
I think this is the key question. Not to absolve the criminal element, but there is now poverty reaching higher and higher into our society. If I was hungry and cold, I'd be looking for any way to feed and warm myself.

**Det_ard** · April-26-10, 03:03 PM

[quote=1KielsonDrive;140740]

Originally Posted by Stosh

Petty crime is up everywhere. What makes you think downtown is an exception?[/quote]
I think this is the key question. Not to absolve the criminal element, but there is now poverty reaching higher and higher into our society. If I was hungry and cold, I'd be looking for any way to feed and warm myself.

There are a lot of ways to get food and warmth that don't involve busting a car window to steal its contents. Need drugs and alcohol? That's where window busting comes in handy.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-26-10, 08:50 AM

If you don't want your car windows smashed, then don't put things of value in plain view of those passing by.

If you do not want beggars on the streets, follow National Park Service signs found in Yellowstone, and 'Do not feed the bears'. I know this seems very cold hearted, but if you want to help adress the issues of the homeless or hungry I would suggest giving to the Capucians, COTS, St. Leo's, or countless other programs out there. Many of the scammers are drug addicts or boozers and giving them money is not helping them.

Its better to be proactive than reactive.

**gazhekwe** · April-26-10, 09:06 AM

We were walking around the Fox area after the Dylan concert last year and ran across a man hanging around on Park between Montcalm and Columbia. I was expecting a panhandler, especially when he wanted to start talking to us, but he said he was getting paid $5 by each of several car owners to watch their cars. Interesting enterprise. We had paid for parking in the Fox garage because we didn't want to risk damage. Experienced people will find ways to reduce risk. Downtown is no place for innocent babes.

**Detroitnerd** · April-26-10, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

We were walking around the Fox area after the Dylan concert last year and ran across a man hanging around on Park between Montcalm and Columbia. I was expecting a panhandler, especially when he wanted to start talking to us, but he said he was getting paid $5 by each of several car owners to watch their cars. Interesting enterprise. We had paid for parking in the Fox garage because we didn't want to risk damage. Experienced people will find ways to reduce risk. Downtown is no place for innocent babes.

Sounds like you ran into "Shortie."

lincoln8740 · April-26-10, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Sounds like you ran into "Shortie."

Shorty Rules!

One time we pulled up in front of the Kales and as we got out he actaully said "Hi I am Shorty I will be your Street Valet for tonight!"

So worth a quarter!

BTW, I never ever give money to bums but shorty is around so much and doesn't ask every time I see him

**gazhekwe** · April-26-10, 09:14 AM

Sounds like you ran into "Shortie."

He was pretty short.

**Detroitnerd** · April-26-10, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Sounds like you ran into "Shortie."

He was pretty short.

He has carved out a little niche for him in that part of town. I believe he watches the cars, but I doubt him about everything else. Every time I run into him, his mother is in the hospital near death.

**texorama** · April-26-10, 09:41 AM

In no other city in this country would victims of crime in the central business district be blamed by people who supposedly care about the city.

**English** · April-26-10, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by texorama

In no other city in this country would victims of crime in the central business district be blamed by people who supposedly care about the city.

It's sad, isn't it?

Over the years, we've grown extremely comfortable with the status quo. Until we change our mentality, the city can't turn around.

**p1acebo** · April-26-10, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by texorama

In no other city in this country would victims of crime in the central business district be blamed by people who supposedly care about the city.

I disagree, people get called out all the time for putting them self in bad situations. I have a friend in Chicago who blames himself for getting mugged by being an idiot and going to neighborhoods he shouldn't go to.

**kryptonite** · April-26-10, 09:47 AM

Are you sure you are talking about downtown Detroit?? I peronally have never felt safer downtown than I have since the casinos and sports arenas opened, because of those developments there is foot traffic once more in the downtown. Back in the 80's there seemed to be much more crime, there were not a lot of people out at night and broken car windows were common. People primarily went from their car to whatever venue they were attending and did not walk much to restaurants or bars other than the place they went to in the first place. unless there was a festival on Hart Plaza, Downtown was quite bleak in the 80's with the exception of Greektown.

Nowadays I am frequently downtown and feel safe to walk around and to go to different places even in the evening. I agree with Detroitplanner, if you don't want your car broken into, don't leave things sitting out in the car. That is true in most big cities - theft from parked vehicles is very common and not just a Detroit problem.

**R8RBOB** · April-26-10, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by kryptonite

Are you sure you are talking about downtown Detroit?? I peronally have never felt safer downtown than I have since the casinos and sports arenas opened, because of those developments there is foot traffic once more in the downtown. Back in the 80's there seemed to be much more crime, there were not a lot of people out at night and broken car windows were common. People primarily went from their car to whatever venue they were attending and did not walk much to restaurants or bars other than the place they went to in the first place. unless there was a festival on Hart Plaza, Downtown was quite bleak in the 80's with the exception of Greektown.

Nowadays I am frequently downtown and feel safe to walk around and to go to different places even in the evening. I agree with Detroitplanner, if you don't want your car broken into, don't leave things sitting out in the car. That is true in most big cities - theft from parked vehicles is very common and not just a Detroit problem.

I don't have a problem with downtown either. We know the environment of downtown Detroit. I think I was attempting to highlight the media noticing that crime is up in downtown Detroit. As Stosh pointed out, petty crime is everywhere but Downtown Detroit is what Detroit sells to get people to come to the city. If there is any hint that downtown crime is on a rise then you know everyone is going to pounce. Remember when Jim Fouts tried to get GM to move their headquarters to Warren? One of his selling points was that employees would be in an safe environment. Stories like this only get the Detroit haters buzzing.

**gazhekwe** · April-26-10, 10:39 AM

People from this area, including the suburbs, are usually pretty savvy about leaving their cars parked in safer areas. They even lock their cars in their own driveways. We were living in the woods up along Lake Superior, and our visitors from the Detroit area would lock their cars in our driveway. We'd laugh at them and ask if they thought we had car burglar bears. But it is true, you have to learn your environment to reduce your vulnerability. I wouldn't park anywhere near a street where I see broken window glass. I don't believe saying that "blames the victims" at all. But what is, is.