DDOT Light Rail Presentation Today

[Bearinabox]

And would we really want light rail running 50 mph down Woodward? I mean, there's a lot of places to stop along there in the downtown portion, no? So if it's going to run slower and stop more, wouldn't it be wiser to have the cheaper modern street car system instead?

Depends if you want it to be limited to the downtown area or not. Out past 6 Mile, it would have to run at something like 50mph to be anywhere near competitive with a car in terms of time.

[j to the jeremy]

And don't forget, LRT can slow down if needed. Streetcars can't speed up past a certain point.

[casscorridor]

I guess I need educated on why there's such hostility toward private backers wanting to spend their own money, and private foundation money, to build the start of a wider rail system. Especially in an age where dollars are limited.

Because it is competing with the publicly funded plan. It has gotten way more support from the media and from the state legislature. Why don't these private backers, who are not transit experts, put their money in the DDOT's DTOGS plan? I think I know the answer... control. They don't like that it is the DETROIT department of transportation... they prefer the idea of a nonprofit quasy-public corporation where they can sit on the board of directors.

I'm in agreement that we need a regional transportation plan, and that SMART and DDOT need to merge/coordinate more effectively. But right now we don't have a regional transit authority, so DDOT is what we have for the city right now. The state legislator or the federal government should try and force the private funds into the public plan, and then try and push for a regional transit authority that is truely representative.

Although there is a lot at stake as far as the outcome of what is built [[leaving who controls it aside), I doubt the private funders are very interested in what is built as far as light rail vs. street car [[or if they do, their reasons for wanting street car are not based in any expertice of transit). The bottom of this is the same things that have prevented transit from getting built in the past:, and the conflict that put a halt on Cobo, and many many other examples. I think we all know what I am talking about. No?

[casscorridor]

.... but regardless, any rail built along woodward is better than none. I just hope the private plan won't jeprodize future expansion

[BShea]

Because it is competing with the publicly funded plan.

Except it's not, from what I've seen. They're in talks to merge, and there is no money for the DDOT plan, other than for studies. The entire thing hinges on federal New Starts money that is not yet secured, and isn't guaranteed to be, and matching money from Detroit -- and we all know the city doesn't have it.

I'm not advocating for either plan, but I just don't see as fact the "competing" statement. One plan has money, one doesn't.

It has gotten way more support from the media and from the state legislature.

You mean the private plan has more support, correct? I'm unclear on who you're referring to. The legislature has already approved the private plan and funding for it, so it's a go.

Why don't these private backers, who are not transit experts, put their money in the DDOT's DTOGS plan? I think I know the answer... control. They don't like that it is the DETROIT department of transportation... they prefer the idea of a nonprofit quasy-public corporation where they can sit on the board of directors.

Perhaps, but the idea is that control of the private rail will be turned over to the regional authority that runs the three-county system. I think pretty much everyone agrees the DTOG plan would operate the same way -- it would eventually be part of the regionally controlled three-county system run by a nonprofit corporation. Hence, I don't see the difference you're trying to make. If would be incredibly stupid if the city/DDOT kept the Woodward system seperate from the wider system out of some sort of parochial control/spite vendetta [[read: Cobo Center).

Also, the private plan has been designed by third-party transportation experts, so that's sort of a false argument. I've seen and read the plans, which originated with Detroit Mercy's transit folks. And the city is at least tacitly supportive because the DDA was happy to pony up $9 million for the project.

[Russix]

I guess I need educated on why there's such hostility toward private backers wanting to spend their own money, and private foundation money, to build the start of a wider rail system.

The private plan thats already been sent out for bids doesn't include any merging or expansion plans. The private plan is dedicated to serving the private interest in a small area at the sacrifice of the region's first attempt at real mass transit. The private plan only adds a transit mode thats purely an aesthetic to the landscape while the public plan is a real improvement in function. DTOGS should be taken over by a regional authority. This wider rail system that you believe will come form the private plan is just hype. The private backers would have thrown their support into a larger plan from the get-go and tried to utilize federal money. The worst part of this horse hockey is when their done building the system they want we[[the city) have to pay to operate it. I think not!

[BShea]

This wider rail system that you believe will come form the private plan is just hype. The private backers would have thrown their support into a larger plan from the get-go and tried to utilize federal money.

What federal money? Can't be New Starts, and certainly can't be stimulus money any time soon. And the surface transportation bill re-authorization fight is just gearing up. So there's no federal money to be had -- especially with Detroit completely unable to provide the match. The feds just don't hand over the entire cost of the project.

And if it's hype, then I suppose John Hertel has been lying to everyone for the past 18 months. I find that very hard to believe. He orchestrated the private plan among private backers, the foundations, Wayne State, the hospitals and the city and it's a key element of the three-country plan. Why do people think they're lying about that?

If you have a system already in place, I believe you're more likely to get New Starts money for other related aspects. I also see nothing wrong with private business having an interesting in funding a plan that's likely to happen 5 to 10 years prior to the local government agency's plan. That's logical.

[Russix]

How is that significantly worse than the city paying for both the construction and the operating expenses?

The city actually gets something that is beneficial to its residents, not something that looks nice but essentially performs the same function as a bus. Isn't it worth paying more for something that actually improves things beyond appearances?

I say if a private group wants to put up their own money, more fucking power to them! The idea that the state or feds should force this private group to put their money together into the public system is the type of thinking that has brought Detroit to its current third world status.

It is definitely more power to them and the only reason for becoming involved in the first place. Unfortunately this power is aligned to serve only private interest and potentially destroy larger plans of the public interest. How does this deviate from third-world status?

Detroit needs to embrace a totally new way of conducting business. There's this idea here that Detroit is close to being a functioning city, but it's not. We can't get the city to provide the basic services that Kuala Lumpor has, yet we somehow think the people inside the CAYMC have the know-how to design and run a complex transportation system? Or somehow the people in Lansing and Washington, even more removed from the reality of Detroit, have the answers?

Are you saying that the effort that when into designing DTOGS by DDOT[[oh wow a transit entity!) to host meetings to gather public input, collect data on how a new system would intergrate with current transit infrastrutues, and consult with URS[[oh wow a transit engineering firm!) is inferior to a transit plan thats been drawn up in back room that nobody has even seen yet?

[dtowncitylover]

"Are you saying that the effort that when into designing DTOGS by DDOT[[oh wow a transit entity!) to host meetings to gather public input, collect data on how a new system would intergrate with current transit infrastrutues, and consult with URS[[oh wow a transit engineering firm!) is inferior to a transit plan thats been drawn up in back room that nobody has even seen yet?"


That's not true. I have seen Hartel's plan for greater mass transit in the area at public meetings attended by quite a few people. This deals with the transit plan the Big 4 leaders signed back in December to have a regional authority by the end of June. Just because M-1 Rail doesn't have a fancy video like DTOGS, doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior.

[Russix]

What federal money? Can't be New Starts, and certainly can't be stimulus money any time soon. And the surface transportation bill re-authorization fight is just gearing up. So there's no federal money to be had -- especially with Detroit completely unable to provide the match. The feds just don't hand over the entire cost of the project...

And if it's hype, then I suppose John Hertel has been lying to everyone for the past 18 months. I find that very hard to believe. He orchestrated the private plan among private backers, the foundations, Wayne State, the hospitals and the city and it's a key element of the three-country plan. Why do people think they're lying about that?..

Because they are throwing out a public plan designed for long-term growth for a novelty. They also hide the details of the private plan and keep spewing the same rhetoric while nothing apparently changes. Hertel is lying, that's his job.

If you have a system already in place, I believe you're more likely to get New Starts money for other related aspects. I also see nothing wrong with private business having an interesting in funding a plan that's likely to happen 5 to 10 years prior to the local government agency's plan. That's logical.

Agreed! But unfortunately that isn't happening. If this were the case private business would have supported building the common segment of DTOGS[[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2wh3rXaMLM). Instead a completely different plan is being built moving us away from an established plan that was meeting the requirements for applying for New Starts grants. Getting Step 1 done right is the most important aspect of this as it defines the rest of the implementation. If you screw up here, you get stuck with a weak implementation and nothing ever gets done to improve it as it's already deemed a failure. Examples of this abound here. And for anyone to promote trusting a private-interest-for-public-good relationship needs to wake the fuck up.

[Russix]

That's not true. I have seen Hartel's plan for greater mass transit in the area at public meetings attended by quite a few people. This deals with the transit plan the Big 4 leaders signed back in December to have a regional authority by the end of June. Just because M-1 Rail doesn't have a fancy video like DTOGS, doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior.

Read KingRex post, and then my reply, context helps.

Also the Big4 transit plan doesn't shed any more light on the implementation of M1-RAIL other than a line on a map, with the mention of curb-side tracks and Portland-styled[[6 mph) street cars.

Also here is an old article detailing that the Woodward Common Segment would be built even if Gratiot or Michigan Ave were chosen as the first routes.
http://www.modeldmedia.com/developme...togs10307.aspx

[dtowncitylover]

Read KingRex post, and then my reply, context helps.

Ok, yeah I see what your saying.

But, Hertel's plan shouldn't be viewed as inferior just because we haven't seen it yet. I love the fact that DTOGS wants to build to 8 Mile and love the fact that Hertel's plan calls for regionalism...it's idiotic and childish [[especially on the part of Hertel) that these two plans don't merge.

It's like Hertel is MonCon, childish, unreluncteand, and too air-headed to see reality, and DTOGS is everyone else with the common sense to know what will and won't work.

[BShea]

I've seen the M1 plan and the DTOG plan, and I can say the M1 plan has a lot more to it, at least in terms of details and specifics and ways to get stuff done, than from what I've seen of DDOT's plans.

Speaking purely as a downtown resident, I'd rather see something get down now [[M1) rather than wait 10-20 years for DTOG, or never since it has zero funding guaranteed.

[Russix]

I've seen the M1 plan and the DTOG plan, and I can say the M1 plan has a lot more to it, at least in terms of details and specifics and ways to get stuff done, than from what I've seen of DDOT's plans.

Please do share your secret sources to M1 plans!

Speaking purely as a downtown resident, I'd rather see something get down now [[M1) rather than wait 10-20 years for DTOG, or never since it has zero funding guaranteed.

Speaking purely as a midtown resident, I question what is the point? M1 is a fancy bus for tourists. It runs right in traffic which makes it useless anytime something like the Final Four comes to town or the Tigers/Lions/Red Wings sell out a game. M1 will only damage long-range developments and future extensions. M1 Rail has to get an operating license from the City Council which means it will never happen, guaranteed!