Commuter rail line delayed indefinitely

[detourdetroit]

local government is a creature of and subservient to the state. we will either get ahead of the inevitable or continue to back ourselves into ad hoc water, zoo and cobo corners, getting further behind other regions. regionalize or die. railheads should support a constitutional convention in 2010.

[professorscott]

I am amused whenever I read posts about how much rail travel is subsidized. Nearly all the federal spending on transportation goes to highways. Air traffic, ports and railroads fight over the scraps.

A truly competitive national transportation system would probably look like this, and every single piece of this will be subsidized to some extent, because nobody is actually willing to pay what it costs to move himself around:

1. Air travel in a hub-and-spoke system [[what we have today), encouraged for travel of over 300 miles but discouraged [[i.e. not subsidized) for short-distance trips, and primarily serving major urban-area airports.

2. Moderate speed rail [[60 to 150 mph), encouraged for travel of trips under 400 miles between major urban areas.

3. Regular passenger rail and intercity bus service for short trips and trips between smaller communities.

4. Enhanced spending for regional public transportation throughout the country, with local match requirements similar to the existing rules for Class I roads.

5. Of course to maintain the existing road network but without much in the way of future expansion.

If someone in DC would like for me to draft a policy in this regard, I would be happy to do so.

Prof. Scott

[Hermod]

I am amused whenever I read posts about how much rail travel is subsidized. Nearly all the federal spending on transportation goes to highways. Air traffic, ports and railroads fight over the scraps.

A truly competitive national transportation system would probably look like this, and every single piece of this will be subsidized to some extent, because nobody is actually willing to pay what it costs to move himself around:

1. Air travel in a hub-and-spoke system [[what we have today), encouraged for travel of over 300 miles but discouraged [[i.e. not subsidized) for short-distance trips, and primarily serving major urban-area airports.

2. Moderate speed rail [[60 to 150 mph), encouraged for travel of trips under 400 miles between major urban areas.

3. Regular passenger rail and intercity bus service for short trips and trips between smaller communities.

4. Enhanced spending for regional public transportation throughout the country, with local match requirements similar to the existing rules for Class I roads.

5. Of course to maintain the existing road network but without much in the way of future expansion.

If someone in DC would like for me to draft a policy in this regard, I would be happy to do so.

Prof. Scott

The highway operators pay a fee [[gasoline taxes) for the roads which they use. The airline operators pay a fee [[in your ticket price and in the outrageous cost of terminal food) to operate the air system. Railroad freight operators pay for their own private tracks. The only folks angling for a "free ride" from the taxpayers are the commuter and intercity rail types.

[Retroit]

^The reason that gas taxes are able to pay for roads and airports is that gas is heavily subsidized to begin with. Consider how much is spent on tax breaks and subsidies to oil corporations, foreign aid to oil producing countries, military operations to keep oil flowing from the Middle East, etc. If gas prices reflected their true costs, people would be clamoring for more fuel efficient modes of travel.

And the time will come when oil becomes scarce and gas prices will increase. Oil supplies are expected to be depleted within the next 50 to 80 years. While many people are banking on us finding more reserves or discovering some other source of energy, wouldn't it be wise to depend on more than just hope?

[Hermod]

^The reason that gas taxes are able to pay for roads and airports is that gas is heavily subsidized to begin with. Consider how much is spent on tax breaks and subsidies to oil corporations, foreign aid to oil producing countries, military operations to keep oil flowing from the Middle East, etc. If gas prices reflected their true costs, people would be clamoring for more fuel efficient modes of travel.

And the time will come when oil becomes scarce and gas prices will increase. Oil supplies are expected to be depleted within the next 50 to 80 years. While many people are banking on us finding more reserves or discovering some other source of energy, wouldn't it be wise to depend on more than just hope?

1. The bulk of foreign aid goes to Israel and Egypt as the bribe to those countries to make peace under Jimmy Carter. Neither of those countries produce much oil.

2. Oil companies, like other extractive industries, receive a depletion allowance on their revenues from oil to allow for further exploration. This is much like the depreciation allowance that companies receive for buildings and machinery.

[SpartanTom]

The highway operators pay a fee [[gasoline taxes) for the roads which they use. The airline operators pay a fee [[in your ticket price and in the outrageous cost of terminal food) to operate the air system. Railroad freight operators pay for their own private tracks. The only folks angling for a "free ride" from the taxpayers are the commuter and intercity rail types.

Gas taxes don't come close to providing enough revenue for highway/roadway maintenance or expansion, so yes roadways are heavily subsidized.

[Hermod]

Gas taxes don't come close to providing enough revenue for highway/roadway maintenance or expansion, so yes roadways are heavily subsidized.

The following is from Wiki. Fed and State funds pretty much cover their road building and maintenance. Local side streets tend to come from property taxes.

The head of the U.S. Dept. of Transportation stated on 15 August 2007 that about 60% of federal gas taxes are used for highway and bridge construction. The remaining 40% goes to other, unrelated uses.[4] However, revenues from other taxes is also used in federal transportation programs. A 2003 Federation Highway Administration study found that 94% of federal roadway funding came from fuel taxes, 86.3% of state roadway funding came from fuel taxes, and 11.1% of local roadway funding came from fuel taxes.

[SpartanTom]

The following is from Wiki. Fed and State funds pretty much cover their road building and maintenance. Local side streets tend to come from property taxes.

So I guess "commuter and intercity rail types" aren't the only ones riding on taxpayer dollars huh? Every form of transit is subsidized largely because cheapskates aren't willing to fork over the money necessary to move their asses. At least up front. It has to go through the government and a few layers of tape first.

[stasu1213]

Will the cost of living go up in Michigan including Detroit once we get high speed rail for Michigan and light rail for Detroit?

[English]

The cost of living in Michigan is already far too high for the services that we [[don't) receive. I'm sure we pay more in federal tax dollars than our state receives back.

[professorscott]

We have high hidden costs of living, I would say. Our land and housing is cheap compared to other metro areas, but:

1. Our transportation costs skyrocket because most of us need to own cars [[and usually more than one per family), and we have unusually far commutes as a region, on average.

2. Our homeowner's insurance costs in and near the city are high because of crime, fire and decay, and [[more importantly) the perception of crime, fire and decay.

3. Our health care costs, direct and indirect, are most likely higher than for peer cities because we have unhealthy lifestyles, mostly due to a lack of good opportunities for unintentional exercise. Hoback and I studied this a few years back, and it is directly related to our overuse of the automobile. All of you know somebody who drives to a neighbor's house three blocks away, or circles the shopping center parking lot repeatedly to get the good space close to the gym.

4. Our top line as a region is slipping [[per capita income) mostly because our system of education is underfunded and outmoded; we are still educating students to work in the Ford factories of the 1950s.

5. City residents in particular pay higher retail costs for everything because of a combination of factors. Crime is one, sure, but a bigger one is parking. In very few modern big cities does a retail store have to purchase a big chunk of vacant land and pave it so that customers can park off-street. But then Detroit hasn't been a modern big city since the 1970s. "Modern" has changed; we haven't.

[English]

Professor, these are all very good points. I would also add to the "unhealthy" index that not only don't we have opportunities for unintentional exercise because we don't walk, we don't have the kinds of bodegas/independent neighborhood grocery stores that many other cities and suburbs have.

In my corner of Ann Arbor, I'm fortunate that I have a Mediterranean grocery store a few blocks away in one direction, and I live on a bus line that goes up to campus/downtown in the other. I've been able to let a sibling or a friend in Metro Detroit use my car for weeks, and have been able to do everything that I need to do using public transportation and my feet.

I find that a walking lifestyle is stigmatized in metro Detroit. When I've mentioned my desire to live within walking distance of my job, the response is usually "why would you want to do that? I want to get away from work!" I'm sorry, but a commute that's more than 15-20 minutes isn't my idea of fun. I did not want to leave Detroit, but when opportunity knocked, I was unwilling to spend nearly 2 hours every day sitting in traffic. Others are free to do as they wish, but I'm just not a person who loves to be in my car. For me, car transportation is a means to an end... getting from point A to point B.

I think folks will find that a growing number of people under 35 are selecting communities for walkability, safety, and amenities that are reachable without a car. I know a number of people who work in Detroit and live in places like Royal Oak, Ferndale, or even Ann Arbor so that they can park the car at home and walk everywhere during the evenings and weekends. Some of them are part of the SEMCOG vanpools... I've learned a lot about those over the past few months.

[SpartanTom]

I find that a walking lifestyle is stigmatized in metro Detroit. When I've mentioned my desire to live within walking distance of my job, the response is usually "why would you want to do that? I want to get away from work!" I'm sorry, but a commute that's more than 15-20 minutes isn't my idea of fun. I did not want to leave Detroit, but when opportunity knocked, I was unwilling to spend nearly 2 hours every day sitting in traffic. Others are free to do as they wish, but I'm just not a person who loves to be in my car. For me, car transportation is a means to an end... getting from point A to point B.

It's almost like a badge of honor for some people, bragging how they drive 2 hours each way to work. Everyone is like "wow... two hours?" but all I think is "what an enormous waste of time". The best part is when co-workers try and one-up each other with their commute times. Congratulations, 1/10th of your life is spent sitting in traffic. I'll be at home, having dinner.

[tallboy66]

Hasn't this already been going for about 4 or 5 years? How is it that other cities are able to build a full transit line in that amount of time, while in the Detroit area they can't even put up a demonstrator line on the already existing infrastructure?

Lobbying, and how much money the big 3 spend to keep it out of the city, if you move to Detroit you will buy a car! If you don't like it you can move. As Detroits pop. will maybe be above 800,000 on this census.

[English]

It's almost like a badge of honor for some people, bragging how they drive 2 hours each way to work. Everyone is like "wow... two hours?" but all I think is "what an enormous waste of time". The best part is when co-workers try and one-up each other with their commute times. Congratulations, 1/10th of your life is spent sitting in traffic. I'll be at home, having dinner.

My thoughts exactly! I'd rather commute once per week on Saturdays -- with light traffic, mind -- to the big box stores like Target or Sam's Club, and save the daily grind for something closer. I know the mileage of others may vary, but that's how I plan to live.

[DetroitPlanner]

The highway operators pay a fee [[gasoline taxes) for the roads which they use. The airline operators pay a fee [[in your ticket price and in the outrageous cost of terminal food) to operate the air system. Railroad freight operators pay for their own private tracks. The only folks angling for a "free ride" from the taxpayers are the commuter and intercity rail types.

Actually it is the highway users that pay the tax. Of the tax paid quite a bit of it gets used to support passenger rail and other transit projects.

I don't consider this to be a bad thing as transit helps the highway user to drive less congested roads. The highway user should pay for this privledge. The big issue now is that since hybrids are here and soon electric/hybrids like the Nissan Leaf and Chevey Volt are just around the corner, highway user fees are destined to drop seriously and with that drop there will be drops in funding for not just repairing roads, but for providing transit.

[Detroitnerd]

See? They knocked down Tiger Stadium and Corktown already has a new business! Let's just hope they keep that vacant lot chained in and safe, so that this newly eyesore-free neighborhood will get more coney islands, gas stations and nail shops.

[Novine]

"The highway operators pay a fee [[gasoline taxes) for the roads which they use. The airline operators pay a fee [[in your ticket price and in the outrageous cost of terminal food) to operate the air system. Railroad freight operators pay for their own private tracks. The only folks angling for a "free ride" from the taxpayers are the commuter and intercity rail types."

Last time I checked, the roads are in pretty sorry shape. That means that highway users are not paying their fair share to maintain the roads. As for freight railroads, they get preferential treatment for their right-of-way and tax credits for maintenance activities.

[DetroitPlanner]

Last time I checked, the roads are in pretty sorry shape. That means that highway users are not paying their fair share to maintain the roads. As for freight railroads, they get preferential treatment for their right-of-way and tax credits for maintenance activities.

I'd agree, with hybrids getting MPG's in the 40's and 50's and electric/hybrids getting anywhere from 100 MPG to 300 MPG, this will get worse. Only folks paying for the road network will be the poor who will be driving oder technology or those who need a specialized vehicle to do their work [[i.e. plumbers, electricians, those that haul a bunch of tools or supplies).

[iheartthed]

5. City residents in particular pay higher retail costs for everything because of a combination of factors. Crime is one, sure, but a bigger one is parking. In very few modern big cities does a retail store have to purchase a big chunk of vacant land and pave it so that customers can park off-street. But then Detroit hasn't been a modern big city since the 1970s. "Modern" has changed; we haven't.

Yep. And that is the main reason middle class residents are fleeing Detroit in droves. It isn't convenient or cost-effective to live there.