Commuter rail line delayed indefinitely

[professorscott]

Why this hasn't come to pass, comes down to a couple of very simple things.

1. The "region", which doesn't truly exist in any corporeal sense, has absolutely no source of money which can be used to pay for the operation of this line. The fact that we are really not a region, but well over 100+ fractious communities often in contention with each other, is why almost nothing of any value is ever done around here.

2. The freight railroads were not all 100% cooperative with SEMCOG's efforts to plan this; and in any case there was no money laying around which could be readily used to make the necessary improvements to run this service.

The big one - watch for it now - here it comes:

3. We have no regional transit authority, with a dedicated and secure source of funding, which is why we do not get any reasonable amount of federal transit funding. Until we have our shit together as a geographic region, with regard to having a willingness to actually provide enough money to run a decent transit system, we will NEVER have a decent transit system in any form.

Metro Detroit spends about 1/3 as much per capita on transit as other regions of similar population. That's why our system doesn't work well and why we can't seem to get anything done: we are not willing to pay for it. Until that changes, nothing else will.

[DetroitPlanner]

AMTRAK has a shortage of cars and locomotives to run the trains they operate now. If you have a couple of spare locos and a dozen or so passenger cars plus money for trackage rights/rental and crew wages, have at it.

Also you need to schedule the trains into the current passenger and freight schedules on the lines in question.

SEMCOG and MDOT have bought the cars and are current acquiring the locomotives. They are currently being painted and spruced up. As ProScott said this would be a lot easier if there was a public transit authority and funding. SEMCOG or MDOT are not a transit operators but are championing this project because linking Detroit, Ann Arbor, Greenfield Village, and the Airport makes sense and they want to prove to FTA that the ridership is there.

[Hermod]

SEMCOG and MDOT have bought the cars and are current acquiring the locomotives. They are currently being painted and spruced up.

Then supposedly all you need is to get the railroads to let you run the trains [[they do own the tracks).

[esp1986]

Gotta love it.

Absolutely ZERO state support for the $28 million to construct a 45-mile regional rail line that would impose minimal maintenance costs, yet MDOT can ram a $1.5 billion+, 7-mile freeway expansion down everyone's throat.

Outstanding.

And better yet, they continue to push for a multi-billion dollar bridge paid for by taxpayers that someone is willing to build out of his own pocket, at no cost to taxpayers. Brilliant.

A little transportation spending on something other than roads will, over time, actually decrease road maintenance costs because the use of said roads would decrease as rail ridership increases, but this is all over the head of that ignorant Canadian bitch in Lansing.

[Hermod]

And better yet, they continue to push for a multi-billion dollar bridge paid for by taxpayers that someone is willing to build out of his own pocket, at no cost to taxpayers. Brilliant.

A little transportation spending on something other than roads will, over time, actually decrease road maintenance costs because the use of said roads would decrease as rail ridership increases, but this is all over the head of that ignorant Canadian bitch in Lansing.

Getting semitrailers off the roads would do a hell of a lot more to decrease road maintenance costs than getting cars off the roads would. I would rather see a multimoal yard at the Michigan border where all inbound semis get loaded on flat cars to continue their jou8rney through Michigan.

[professorscott]

Then supposedly all you need is to get the railroads to let you run the trains [[they do own the tracks).

"all you need" is right, but this has been a monumental problem. SEMCOG has been dealing with the three, that's right, count 'em, three railroads that own the relevant sections of track, and getting that agreement is what has taken almost all of the time spent on the project; and in fact, I believe if you were to check with SEMCOG, what the railroads in fact have agreed to is to allow a truly minimal number of trains, far less than what anyone wanted, and in fact not enough to make for a successful demonstration project IMVHO.

So even if the trains were to run, which they aren't, you would only have a few trains a day, which is not enough to attract large numbers of people [[again, just IMVHO), so at the end of it the fed sez "see, we were right, nobody does want to ride that" and it shuts down after a few years.

Go big or go home. If we can't run eight to twelve trains a day - and that's a bare minimum for a good regional line - then we should spend our money on something else, like more buses or some light rail.

[detourdetroit]

Two words: CON CON

[Detroitnerd]

If I remember right, the limited trackage rights helped kill the commuter back in the mid-1980s. I wonder: What would be the estimated cost of twinning that rail line into a freight-passenger four-track ROW?

[dove-7]

Thanks. So the main benefit of this non-Amtrak "commuter" rail is that it will increase frequency and lower costs? If so...

• Why can't Amtrak increase frequency on their own? If there were enough demand to do so, why wouldn't they?
• How will this "commuter" rail be less expensive than the heavily subsidized Amtrak?

--------------------

As for my comment on MCS, I'm simply wondering why Dearborn got $28 million and Detroit didn't. Presumably, if Dearborn was expecting a great increase in riders, Detroit would also. Would the current Detroit station be able to handle this great increase in traffic, or would a larger station be needed? Also, note I said "help restore", not "restore".

You serious? Look, it doesn't take a station of that size to run trains in Detroit. It doesn't have the traffic for it. If you go back to the last days that the trains ran out of the station, there wasn't much left in the station and business was slowing down, that's why Amtrak moved and downsized.

Trains running out of that hulk isn't going to save it. The concept behind the building is the same that we see with contemporary office buildings. Use the station for it's primary purpose and rent out the other spaces. The station was never solely used for trains. There are spaces in the station that were never rented out, the areas that were meant for that.

Bottom line, the only way that building will work is something major like in multiple major things have to happen to make the MCS a reality. One thing that comes to my mind is turning the building into a technology type of business where technology companies rent space, some areas could be made into a vintage museum. Vintage MCS historical train station, auto museum, movie theaters etc.

Trains alone isn't going to bring the station back from the dead.

[Hermod]

"all you need" is right, but this has been a monumental problem. SEMCOG has been dealing with the three, that's right, count 'em, three railroads that own the relevant sections of track, and getting that agreement is what has taken almost all of the time spent on the project; and in fact, I believe if you were to check with SEMCOG, what the railroads in fact have agreed to is to allow a truly minimal number of trains, far less than what anyone wanted, and in fact not enough to make for a successful demonstration project IMVHO.

So even if the trains were to run, which they aren't, you would only have a few trains a day, which is not enough to attract large numbers of people [[again, just IMVHO), so at the end of it the fed sez "see, we were right, nobody does want to ride that" and it shuts down after a few years.

Go big or go home. If we can't run eight to twelve trains a day - and that's a bare minimum for a good regional line - then we should spend our money on something else, like more buses or some light rail.

One of the basic axioms of railroad dispatching is that only one train can occupy a section of track at one time. If you have the tracks full of passengers trains, you can not use them for freight trains. Freight trains pay the bills.

[Russix]

The commuter train idea was nice, but it's schedule was going to be severely limited[[like 2 extra trains in the morning rush hour, and two in the evening rush hour).

One bus that leaves from Ann Arbor, stops in Ypsilanti then to Metro Airport along 94. Another bus that leaves Downtown Detroit up Woodward to New Center, then on 94 to Dearborn then to Metro Airport. Both meet at Metro Airport at the same time so you can transfer to pass through the airport quickly or if you’re a flight arrival you can pick which direction you want to go. I think SEMCOG should sell the rolling stock and just operate an intracity commuter bus service that’s comes every hour for as many hours a day that demand the service. I can see this being popular enough to be a 24 hour service. Will not cost anywhere near $28 million and could be running tomorrow. The 125 is a downriver bus that so happens to terminate at the airport, it is not an acceptable route to encourage commuting between Detroit, the airport and Ann Arbor.

[Retroit]

I'm not so sure that by just increasing the frequency of runs that the ridership will increase. People will have to be discouraged from driving [[hint: higher gas tax).

Passenger trains should have the right-of-way. If the government must mandate it, so be it. What is more important: people or goods? Let the freight trains run at night and the passenger trains run in the day. I'm sure businesses can allow for a few days extra delivery time when ordering their products.

I also don't think that a regional authority is necessary for rail funding. There is no equivalent authority for roads, is there?...and yet they don't seem to have as much trouble acquiring funding. I think it has more to do with demand and federal funding.

And as for MCS, okay, forget I brought it up. The $28 million could have just as well have been used on the existing station.

[DetroitDad]

As if they're EVER going to have a light rail anywhere that would give people an option for driving even though studies back in the 90's showed that access to reliable mass transit would give people more disposable income enabling them to buy more stuff like say a 2nd vehicle for recreation/luxury purposes. Detroit continually shoots itself in the foot.

I wasn't aware many Americans had disposable income, I thought they just had a lot of credit.

[softailrider]

It would take a lot more than $28 million to restore the MCS.

Ya think? What exactly could they save from what's left?

[English]

I saw this a couple of weeks ago when the bad news was first announced. It is very disappointing. I was hoping to be one of the inaugural Ann Arbor-to-Detroit commuter rail riders, but by the time this project gains momentum again, I'll likely be back in the city.

[stasu1213]

I keep saying that Michigan will putting off the idea of mass transit. Ground work was quickly broken for ":Greenways" but not even s piece of concrete was cracked for the light rail up Woodward. GM now is boasting of the paying off of the loan the government had given them. Don't be surprise if small electric cars are pushed on the citizens of Michigan instead of some type of mass transit

[Hermod]

Passenger trains should have the right-of-way. If the government must mandate it, so be it. What is more important: people or goods? Let the freight trains run at night and the passenger trains run in the day. I'm sure businesses can allow for a few days extra delivery time when ordering their products..

The government doesn't own the railroad tracks. They either need to purchase them [[as in the AMTRAK-owned northeast corridor or the state owned rail line from West Palm Beach to Miami) or to pay enough in usage fees to make the railroads want to divert freight trains for passenger trains.

Hey, I have an idea! The government already owns the highways. Make all trucks larger than a pickup truck only use the roads from 9pm to 5am. No more "highway demons" to clog up the morning commute with their semis! Thank you for your wonderful suggestion. The businesses can just wait longer for their deliveries.

[Retroit]

The government doesn't own the railroad tracks. They either need to purchase them [[as in the AMTRAK-owned northeast corridor or the state owned rail line from West Palm Beach to Miami) or to pay enough in usage fees to make the railroads want to divert freight trains for passenger trains.

I can think of many examples of the government dictating what people can or can not do with their private property.

Hey, I have an idea! The government already owns the highways. Make all trucks larger than a pickup truck only use the roads from 9pm to 5am. No more "highway demons" to clog up the morning commute with their semis! Thank you for your wonderful suggestion. The businesses can just wait longer for their deliveries.

If there ever were a lack of roads, we might just have to do this.

[Hermod]

If there ever were a lack of roads, we might just have to do this.

We have more road capacity than we have railroad capacity. We have a very high tech and efficient freight railroad network and system. Truck transport should be limited to going from point of origin to the nearest terminal. The box then goes on a rail car to within a few miles of its destination where the truck takes over again. Rail is a far more efficient freight hauler than it is a passenger hauler.

Unlike in Europe, in the US, railroads actually make money on freight. Passenger rail is a gigantic sinkhole for the taxpayers money.
.

[Detroitnerd]

Unlike in Europe, in the US, railroads actually make money on freight. Passenger rail is a gigantic sinkhole for the taxpayers money.
.

You keep saying that, and yet I have to point out that it might not be so if we hadn't spent a century subsidizing roads and air travel while heavily regulating railroads and, after nationalizing rail passenger service, cutting subsidies to rail passenger travel. Just sayin'.

[Hermod]

You keep saying that, and yet I have to point out that it might not be so if we hadn't spent a century subsidizing roads and air travel while heavily regulating railroads and, after nationalizing rail passenger service, cutting subsidies to rail passenger travel. Just sayin'.

Yes, thank Governor Hazen Pingree for the abandonment of a signifi9cant percentage of the Michigan rail net. Pingree hated any company that made money using steel rails.

Deregulation of railroads [[the Staggers Act) was what saved out freight net. We keep most of AMTRAK [[at significant expense) for sentimental value.

[Retroit]

Rail is a far more efficient freight hauler than it is a passenger hauler.

Why? It can't actually save time to have a trailer transported to a freight terminal, wait for the train, wait to be loaded, travel to destination city at highway speeds, wait to be offloaded, and wait to be driven to ultimate destination. Simply driving the truck non-stop would save time. I believe rail is used because it is less expensive. Or am I wrong?

And if it is more efficient to ship trailers on rail cars, then why not people? People go to the passenger terminal, get loaded on the rail cars, travel to the destination city, get offloaded, etc.

[Hermod]

Why? It can't actually save time to have a trailer transported to a freight terminal, wait for the train, wait to be loaded, travel to destination city at highway speeds, wait to be offloaded, and wait to be driven to ultimate destination. Simply driving the truck non-stop would save time. I believe rail is used because it is less expensive. Or am I wrong?

And if it is more efficient to ship trailers on rail cars, then why not people? People go to the passenger terminal, get loaded on the rail cars, travel to the destination city, get offloaded, etc.

Three people can take a freight train from point A to point B. A passenger train needs management personnel on the cars, a station agent and baggage man per shift at each intervening station, and a slug of folks to clean up the train and service the rest rooms at each end. People are pigs and make as much of a mess as the old cattle cars. A load of lumber doesn't pitch a hissy fit if the restroom isn't clean.

[Retroit]

Three people can take a freight train from point A to point B. A passenger train needs management personnel on the cars, a station agent and baggage man per shift at each intervening station, and a slug of folks to clean up the train and service the rest rooms at each end. People are pigs and make as much of a mess as the old cattle cars. A load of lumber doesn't pitch a hissy fit if the restroom isn't clean.

Well, let's compare it to aviation. Freight and people can both be shipped by air. Could we say that an airplane is a more efficient freight hauler than a passenger hauler?

I guess I'm failing to see the difference. If a form of transportation would be beneficial [[either time-wise or cost-wise) for freight, then why not for passengers?

[Hermod]

Well, let's compare it to aviation. Freight and people can both be shipped by air. Could we say that an airplane is a more efficient freight hauler than a passenger hauler?

I guess I'm failing to see the difference. If a form of transportation would be beneficial [[either time-wise or cost-wise) for freight, then why not for passengers?

Take Deerfield Beach, Florida as an example. I am a volunteer in the Deerfield Beach Railroad Museum so I get to see quite a bit of the AMTRAK operations at their end of the station. There are two east coast trains going north in the morning and two trains going south in the afternoon [[or evening if they are not on time). Seven days a week, the station employs a morning ticket agent, and afternoon [[plus overtime in the evening if the trains are late) ticket agent, and a daytime baggage agent. On a peak day, twenty-four people will get on or off a train. Many times there are only half a dozen. Repeat this at every station up and down the line from New York to Miami [[north of Washington, more trains use the stations). Now factor this into the ticket prices and the subsidy congress has to provide to AMTRAK. TRI-Rail uses the same station with fifteen to twenty trains a day in each direction. All of the Tri-Rail ticketing at the station is from automated vending machines, but Tri-Rail still has to pay for rent-a-cops for station security. There is usually one there.