Commuter rail line delayed indefinitely

**Russix** · April-21-10, 08:05 PM

http://www.pressandguide.com/article...b990313971.txt

Retroit · April-21-10, 08:17 PM

Doesn't Amtrak already provide service between Ann Arbor and Detroit?

Why can't Detroit get $28 million to help restore MCS?

**dove-7** · April-22-10, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

Doesn't Amtrak already provide service between Ann Arbor and Detroit?

Why can't Detroit get $28 million to help restore MCS?

and do what with it?

**Hermod** · April-22-10, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by dove-7

and do what with it?

Grease the "wheels" in city government.

**Detroitej72** · April-22-10, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

Why can't Detroit get $28 million to help restore MCS?

It would take a lot more than $28 million to restore the MCS.

**softailrider** · April-22-10, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

It would take a lot more than $28 million to restore the MCS.

Ya think? What exactly could they save from what's left?

**313WX** · April-21-10, 08:18 PM

Who didn't know this by now?

**dtowncitylover** · April-21-10, 08:47 PM

Oh and f*** Carolyn Kilpatrick. Sorry for the vulgarity, but I'm sure we all think it.

**tallboy66** · April-21-10, 10:19 PM

As if they're EVER going to have a light rail anywhere that would give people an option for driving even though studies back in the 90's showed that access to reliable mass transit would give people more disposable income enabling them to buy more stuff like say a 2nd vehicle for recreation/luxury purposes. Detroit continually shoots itself in the foot.

DetroitDad · April-22-10, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by tallboy66

As if they're EVER going to have a light rail anywhere that would give people an option for driving even though studies back in the 90's showed that access to reliable mass transit would give people more disposable income enabling them to buy more stuff like say a 2nd vehicle for recreation/luxury purposes. Detroit continually shoots itself in the foot.

I wasn't aware many Americans had disposable income, I thought they just had a lot of credit.

**hudkina** · April-22-10, 12:55 AM

You can take Amtrak from Detroit to Ann Arbor but it's a bit expensive, especially for everyday commutes. I took the train from Dearborn to Ann Arbor and it was $12 one way. $12 round trip might be feasible, but $24 a day to commute to work isn't. Not only that, but the Amtrak schedule isn't conducive to commuting. It's not like you can just jump on the train at 7:30 in Ann Arbor and again at 5:30 in Detroit...

Retroit · April-22-10, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by hudkina

You can take Amtrak from Detroit to Ann Arbor but it's a bit expensive, especially for everyday commutes. I took the train from Dearborn to Ann Arbor and it was $12 one way. $12 round trip might be feasible, but $24 a day to commute to work isn't. Not only that, but the Amtrak schedule isn't conducive to commuting. It's not like you can just jump on the train at 7:30 in Ann Arbor and again at 5:30 in Detroit...

Thanks. So the main benefit of this non-Amtrak "commuter" rail is that it will increase frequency and lower costs? If so...

Why can't Amtrak increase frequency on their own? If there were enough demand to do so, why wouldn't they?
How will this "commuter" rail be less expensive than the heavily subsidized Amtrak?

--------------------

As for my comment on MCS, I'm simply wondering why Dearborn got $28 million and Detroit didn't. Presumably, if Dearborn was expecting a great increase in riders, Detroit would also. Would the current Detroit station be able to handle this great increase in traffic, or would a larger station be needed? Also, note I said "help restore", not "restore".

**ndavies** · April-22-10, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

Thanks. So the main benefit of this non-Amtrak "commuter" rail is that it will increase frequency and lower costs? If so...

Why can't Amtrak increase frequency on their own? If there were enough demand to do so, why wouldn't they?
How will this "commuter" rail be less expensive than the heavily subsidized Amtrak?

--------------------

As for my comment on MCS, I'm simply wondering why Dearborn got $28 million and Detroit didn't. Presumably, if Dearborn was expecting a great increase in riders, Detroit would also. Would the current Detroit station be able to handle this great increase in traffic, or would a larger station be needed? Also, note I said "help restore", not "restore".

Amtrak won't do this on thier own because it will be a money sink. It will cost more to run than the fares it collects. Adding another money losing route to an already money losing operation isn't goign to happen. It needs heavy subsidies because their is no way it would be profitable. I thought I had heard earlier that Amtrak was going to run the commuters after they got the extra subsidies.

The commuter line goes nowhere near the MCS, so subsidies for a station that won't be on the line being used seems like a complete non starter to me. Dearborn is building a new station directly on the line being used.

Bearinabox · April-22-10, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

How will this "commuter" rail be less expensive than the heavily subsidized Amtrak?

I would love it if Amtrak were heavily-subsidized. Then it might actually provide pleasant, reliable, affordable transportation to other parts of the country.

**dove-7** · April-22-10, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

Thanks. So the main benefit of this non-Amtrak "commuter" rail is that it will increase frequency and lower costs? If so...

Why can't Amtrak increase frequency on their own? If there were enough demand to do so, why wouldn't they?
How will this "commuter" rail be less expensive than the heavily subsidized Amtrak?

--------------------

As for my comment on MCS, I'm simply wondering why Dearborn got $28 million and Detroit didn't. Presumably, if Dearborn was expecting a great increase in riders, Detroit would also. Would the current Detroit station be able to handle this great increase in traffic, or would a larger station be needed? Also, note I said "help restore", not "restore".

You serious? Look, it doesn't take a station of that size to run trains in Detroit. It doesn't have the traffic for it. If you go back to the last days that the trains ran out of the station, there wasn't much left in the station and business was slowing down, that's why Amtrak moved and downsized.

Trains running out of that hulk isn't going to save it. The concept behind the building is the same that we see with contemporary office buildings. Use the station for it's primary purpose and rent out the other spaces. The station was never solely used for trains. There are spaces in the station that were never rented out, the areas that were meant for that.

Bottom line, the only way that building will work is something major like in multiple major things have to happen to make the MCS a reality. One thing that comes to my mind is turning the building into a technology type of business where technology companies rent space, some areas could be made into a vintage museum. Vintage MCS historical train station, auto museum, movie theaters etc.

Trains alone isn't going to bring the station back from the dead.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-22-10, 05:41 AM

I wonder why someone is post a month old news article as news?

Detroit did not apply for the $28 million to fix up the MCS. The rail by MCS no longer serves passenger transportation. Michigan asked for hundreds of millions for the line, but only received about $50 million to fix up three stations, Battle Creek, Dearborn, and Birmingham/Troy.

**iheartthed** · April-22-10, 07:05 AM

Hasn't this already been going for about 4 or 5 years? How is it that other cities are able to build a full transit line in that amount of time, while in the Detroit area they can't even put up a demonstrator line on the already existing infrastructure?

PQZ · April-22-10, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Hasn't this already been going for about 4 or 5 years? How is it that other cities are able to build a full transit line in that amount of time, while in the Detroit area they can't even put up a demonstrator line on the already existing infrastructure?

North Carolina received $525 million for high speed rail from the TIGER funding announced a few months ago. They received the funding for a couple reasons.

1. The improvements are part of a larger plan to link Atlanta and DC and require five states to cooperate in developing the vision and the work plan to realize the vision. SEMCOG's vision does not play into vision that expands beyond its region. It doesn't even connect regions within the state.

2. NCDOT, SCDOT, GDOT and V-DOT have all expended significant amounts of their own money to develop the vision over the last 20 years with dozens of MPOs and COGs participating and injecting cash as well. Numerous state, regional and local Chambers of Commerce have joined in lobbying efforts for the plan when support was flagging at the state budgetary levels. What kind of significant particpation has there been taht even rivals that in the A2 - Detroit proposal?

3. The $525,000,000 grant [[out of the $7 billion requested for the South East Rail Corridor [[SERC)) are all as close to being shovel ready as possible. All were planned to be done eventually - but not likely for another 7 - 10 years as funding became available. They will also have immediate impacts. It takes 3 hours by car to get to Raleigh from Charlotte. [[Raleigh and Charlotte being the two largest cities in the Carolinas) It takes about 3:45 by rail. The double tracking and grade separations will drop the train time to 2:30 - 2:45. It will also grade separate the busiest rail intersection in the Southeast, allowing thousands of rail cars a day to keep moving instead of sitting and waiting for other trains to cross. The envronmental impacts will be huge.

The money goes to a long range, multistate vision that has broad support and cooperation from hundreds of governmental bodies - a vision that has received tens of millions of dollars in support over the last 20 years from the partners in the project and has prioritized, discrete manageable projects that advance the long term vision.

Ask yourself if the A2- Detroit Amtrak plan has any of those attributes and you will get the answer of why it wasn't funded.

**iheartthed** · April-22-10, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by PQZ

North Carolina received $525 million for high speed rail from the TIGER funding announced a few months ago. They received the funding for a couple reasons.

1. The improvements are part of a larger plan to link Atlanta and DC and require five states to cooperate in developing the vision and the work plan to realize the vision. SEMCOG's vision does not play into vision that expands beyond its region. It doesn't even connect regions within the state.

2. NCDOT, SCDOT, GDOT and V-DOT have all expended significant amounts of their own money to develop the vision over the last 20 years with dozens of MPOs and COGs participating and injecting cash as well. Numerous state, regional and local Chambers of Commerce have joined in lobbying efforts for the plan when support was flagging at the state budgetary levels. What kind of significant particpation has there been taht even rivals that in the A2 - Detroit proposal?

3. The $525,000,000 grant [[out of the $7 billion requested for the South East Rail Corridor [[SERC)) are all as close to being shovel ready as possible. All were planned to be done eventually - but not likely for another 7 - 10 years as funding became available. They will also have immediate impacts. It takes 3 hours by car to get to Raleigh from Charlotte. [[Raleigh and Charlotte being the two largest cities in the Carolinas) It takes about 3:45 by rail. The double tracking and grade separations will drop the train time to 2:30 - 2:45. It will also grade separate the busiest rail intersection in the Southeast, allowing thousands of rail cars a day to keep moving instead of sitting and waiting for other trains to cross. The envronmental impacts will be huge.

The money goes to a long range, multistate vision that has broad support and cooperation from hundreds of governmental bodies - a vision that has received tens of millions of dollars in support over the last 20 years from the partners in the project and has prioritized, discrete manageable projects that advance the long term vision.

Ask yourself if the A2- Detroit Amtrak plan has any of those attributes and you will get the answer of why it wasn't funded.

Well, the question was a bit rhetorical, but thanks for the filler info.

ETA: But when people ask why I don't live in Michigan, I guess I can point to this as another example. I like living in a place that can actually invest in its own infrastructure instead of demolishing it.

**Danny** · April-22-10, 10:28 AM

More bureaucratic junk in the mass transit system. When any individual present a proposal to the masses, please come up with some FUNDING!!! or else no go with the project.

**Detroitnerd** · April-22-10, 10:37 AM

"Approximately $100 million in federal transportation funding was earmarked for the project in 2005, but studies show the routeâ€™s cost-per-rider ratio of more than $70 remains too high for SEMCOG to qualify for the money."

I wonder if the ridership estimates were as unrealistically low as usual.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-22-10, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by PQZ

1. The improvements are part of a larger plan to link Atlanta and DC and require five states to cooperate in developing the vision and the work plan to realize the vision. SEMCOG's vision does not play into vision that expands beyond its region. It doesn't even connect regions within the state.

I think you have the HSR funding and the Detroit Ann Arbor project confused. Detroit AA is not HSR.

If what you say is true about HST Tiger funding, how come the Detroit area HSR funding is linked to Battle Creek and Chicago? How could TIGER funds be granted for the Woodward rail line? Woodward does not go out of the region, and is certainly of a smaller scope than an intercity rail line.

**BShea** · April-22-10, 11:02 AM

In case anyone missed it, here is the story I did on this subject on March 19.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...EO01/100319819

And here's the backgrounder from March 7 on the Kilpatrick-SEMCOG squabble:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...EO01/303079949

**tallboy66** · April-25-10, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Hasn't this already been going for about 4 or 5 years? How is it that other cities are able to build a full transit line in that amount of time, while in the Detroit area they can't even put up a demonstrator line on the already existing infrastructure?

Lobbying, and how much money the big 3 spend to keep it out of the city, if you move to Detroit you will buy a car! If you don't like it you can move. As Detroits pop. will maybe be above 800,000 on this census.

**Supersport** · April-22-10, 01:16 PM

I don't get this, and honestly haven't understood it since it was first announced. You can currently board Amtrak In Pontiac, Birmingham, Detroit, Dearborn, and Ann Arbor. These train currently run on the same tracks as freight, correct? Why is it so hard to run a fuckin' train certain hours during the day in order to determine ridership and feasibility? Am I missing something, or is it just so damn obvious and common sense that our politicians have studied a way to fuck it up over the past 5 years or so?