Dateline NBC Special on Detroit

[iheartthed]

Education is my passion, but I always thought the school argument was a straw man. Most neighborhood schools in most major cities are terrible. The professional and upper classes in urban America don't send their kids to city schools. The fact that there are no good schools hasn't stopped everywhere from Manhattan to Hyde Park from gentrifying. People with means send their kids to exclusive private schools in every other major city in the North and the West, and throughout the South.

Keeping in mind everything Sugrue outlines in his opus, in my layman's opinion, the "fear of crime" hypothesis makes the most sense to me. The riots and the 1970s-early 1990s in Detroit terrified certain groups out of ever moving back. The lack of jobs and economic opportunity in the city, along with a mindset that sanctioned criminal activity as "survival of the fittest" meant that the appeal of a life of crime became a self-fulfilling prophecy for a significant minority of two generations of urban youth [[and we're working on a third!). The rest of us "urban youth" who managed to steer clear of trouble translated success in adulthood as "getting out of Detroit."

Other cities declined, but there wasn't the wholesale and widespread running and screaming one saw in Detroit. Ethnic enclaves in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, and many other places held their ground. Ours packed up and resettled to points north and west. I don't just mean white flight, either -- this decade, a large section of the black middle class and aspirational working class has decamped as well, and are flooding into the suburbs or other places in the country.

What happened here is unique in American history... thus far. A commenter said that Detroit represents the final stage of post-industrial America. What comes next is anyone's guess.

I agree that the school system is a straw man argument. But I'm not sure that I agree with the "fear of crime" hypothesis. Cities like Chicago, New York, Washington, etc. had crime reputations that were as bad, or worse, than Detroit's, but yet they still managed to stabilize the ship.

I do think that Detroit is the most extreme example of urban divestment [[or disinvestment) among very large American cities. That seems to be what sets Detroit apart from everyone else. It was effectively boycotted, for whatever reason. And while it is likely that crime was a major factor, I don't believe it was the overriding factor.

[Bella]

I see, is that here in Cali.? Checkout NBC's website, they usually put up the media the next day.

Arizona in the mountains. The part where is snows more than MI. One storm in January brought us 6ft of snow in three days.

I checked NBC, hulu, ovguide, and google. I am hoping it will be there soon.

[dove-7]

Arizona in the mountains. The part where is snows more than MI. One storm in January brought us 6ft of snow in three days.

I checked NBC, hulu, ovguide, and google. I am hoping it will be there soon.

Yeah I know, it's the same here in the Sierras.'Donner Party' snow.

I'm sure that it'll be on their website.

[Bella]

Yeah I know, it's the same here in the Sierras.'Donner Party' snow.

I'm sure that it'll be on their website.

I got married in case I ever end up in a Donner Party.

I wonder how long it takes for them to post it. I was thinking it would be the next day, but so far, nothing.

[dove-7]

I got married in case I ever end up in a Donner Party.

I wonder how long it takes for them to post it. I was thinking it would be the next day, but so far, nothing.

Lol. The time frame on their site, I'm not sure.

[Johnlodge]

I thought it was as fair as it could be in an hour. I think it's good the rest of the country got a look at where they're headed as we systematically destroy the middle class.

[English]

I agree that the school system is a straw man argument. But I'm not sure that I agree with the "fear of crime" hypothesis. Cities like Chicago, New York, Washington, etc. had crime reputations that were as bad, or worse, than Detroit's, but yet they still managed to stabilize the ship.

Can't argue with you there. I went to NYC for the first time almost 10 years ago, expecting the grit of the late 1970s and was greeted with post-Guiliani, Disneyworld Manhattan. Had a great time, but wow. Where did all the poor people go?

I do think that Detroit is the most extreme example of urban divestment [[or disinvestment) among very large American cities. That seems to be what sets Detroit apart from everyone else. It was effectively boycotted, for whatever reason. And while it is likely that crime was a major factor, I don't believe it was the overriding factor.

Okay. I'm sold on this. But would you say that "fear of crime" is a major reason for this divestment?

Of course, my conspiracy theorist buddies of all shades would tell you that Detroit [[and now Michigan) is being destroyed because its ideologies challenged triumphalist, neoliberal/neoconservative capitalism, in the same way that Carthage was razed to the ground in the ancient world as a threat to Rome. These folks think that racial hatred and division was stoked intentionally to prevent the first successful American class revolution.

I don't know if it was that intentional. I think it's about the water. Because as my friends from outside tell me, we Michiganders -- from the black nationalists to the militias to Michael Moore -- are crazy in a way that you don't find in most states. We produced both Kwame Kilpatrick, and Jack Kevorkian. We've produced an outsized number of the most controversial and most influential Americans for a century. We hate each other really hard, then unite when our teams win championships or when Congress comes after the Big Three.

What a weird, wonderful place! Yes... must be something in the water.

[terryh]

Reading some of the comments from the Free Press about the Dateline special only shows that this so-called post-racial America is just words. Here are some of the comments when it refer to Blacks.









Congratulations Black people, you are now ALL responsible for the destruction of the great city of Detroit. Even if many of you are law-abiding tax-paying citizens who works and takes care of his or her home and the children you are at fault because you got "civil" rights and a number of rebel elements decided to go a different route.

If I didn't know better the message of the day would be "Black is bad, White is right." Only in Sarah Palin's America...LOL

Cut the posters some slack R8BOB...they probably arent' academics who have taken the time to do any research...before I became interested in studying the history and causes of the decline of the economy in the city I made blanket statements about the populace of Detroit. I became an avid reader of books that explain the history of racial tension;organized crime; economic decline; etc.etc...Some good reads are: Origins of the New Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue-Who Killed Detroit written by former Police Commisioner Thomas Sugrue...the posters that are criticizing black resisdents arent putting themselves in the other guys shoes..its easy to demand that other citizens pull themselves up by their bootstraps with meager resources when they themselves arent relegated to low paying menial jobs and a third rate transportation system...

[LL Cool D]

What a weird, wonderful place! Yes... must be something in the water.

If memory serves me, both George Wallace and Jesse Jackson won the Michigan primary. And don't forget all those winky-dinks who voted for Ross Perot. We're reality-challenged.

[R8RBOB]

Cut the posters some slack R8BOB...they probably arent' academics who have taken the time to do any research...before I became interested in studying the history and causes of the decline of the economy in the city I made blanket statements about the populace of Detroit. I became an avid reader of books that explain the history of racial tension;organized crime; economic decline; etc.etc...Some good reads are: Origins of the New Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue-Who Killed Detroit written by former Police Commisioner Thomas Sugrue...the posters that are criticizing black resisdents arent putting themselves in the other guys shoes..its easy to demand that other citizens pull themselves up by their bootstraps with meager resources when they themselves arent relegated to low paying menial jobs and a third rate transportation system...

See Terry, I'm not taking these nuts seriously because their bashing of Detroit comes from dreaming of the early 20th century when Black folk suppose to know their place. The regression of Detroit come from many, many factors. To say that Black people is the reason why Detroit is bad shape is silly. It is amusing to read these comments and wonder what trees did they jump out from.

[iheartthed]

Okay. I'm sold on this. But would you say that "fear of crime" is a major reason for this divestment?

I think "fear of crime" was a side-effect that was a result of some other manifestations. The crime factor probably did spur the divestment in later stages, but I don't think crime was much of a factor in Detroit losing her first batch of 300,000 residents in the 1950s, well before the 1960s riots or the onset of America's war on drugs.

[iheartthed]

Cut the posters some slack R8BOB...they probably arent' academics who have taken the time to do any research...before I became interested in studying the history and causes of the decline of the economy in the city I made blanket statements about the populace of Detroit. I became an avid reader of books that explain the history of racial tension;organized crime; economic decline; etc.etc...Some good reads are: Origins of the New Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue-Who Killed Detroit written by former Police Commisioner Thomas Sugrue...the posters that are criticizing black resisdents arent putting themselves in the other guys shoes..its easy to demand that other citizens pull themselves up by their bootstraps with meager resources when they themselves arent relegated to low paying menial jobs and a third rate transportation system...

While I agree that they likely aren't academics... Why should they be cut any slack for their own ignorance? I don't go around engaging in discussions about nuclear physics, because I don't know a damn thing about it. If I did do that someone more knowledgeable about the subject would probably be glad to hand me a verbal spanking.

[terryh]

True iheartthed, but I think in many cases there are racial fears and anxieties that influence those comments.I can honestly say yeah Ive dated across racial lines, discovered many hidden gems in the city; had many positive experiences with many different black residents [[total strangers) acts of kindness, have been made to feel very welcome in social gatherings etc......having wrote that I cant deny Ive also encountered blatant hostility and racial antagonism...its a fact and Im not proud to admit this but sometimes Im quite ambivalent about race relations....sometimes I find myself thinking well the damage is done, 'things' are going to get worse before they get better..hope Im wrong..[[I was wrong about Downtown becoming spiffed up with a world class waterfront, thought the city suburb divide was too great) what do I know Im just an amateur sociologist

[trotwood]

Did anyone else notice that the narrator said the suburban woman who was gardening was the one who started the urban gardening thing here in the city? Or did I misunderstand what he said? Cuz I know a few people who would would beg to differ with that statement.

I noticed and it's the one thing that I took issue with out of the entire program. Not to take away from the valiant work of the woman shown in the NBC program but many Detroiters have been advocating&working vigorously on urban gardening.
Juanita Newton spent many many years addressing the Detroit City council on behalf of urban farming. I'm not sure if Mother Newton is still with us[[last I heard she was in ill health)but she fought tirelessly for ubarn gardening and did a great amount of work towards the cause

[jcole]

Ray:

Unless I missed something, Bannon was never Chief.

BTW, Evans is not a certified P.O. and is carrying on in public with a subordinate. You might want to reconsider your "crackerjack" description, unless of course, you are describing where Grandpa got his badge....................

Bannon was Deputy Chief of Police, and Ray was a Detroit Policeman long before you were even thought of, so I trust his judgment on police matters before I'd consider yours valid.

[jcole]

I got married in case I ever end up in a Donner Party.

I wonder how long it takes for them to post it. I was thinking it would be the next day, but so far, nothing.

MSNBC has the story and clips here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032600/ns/dateline_nbc

[detroitsgwenivere]

What a weird, wonderful place! Yes... must be something in the water.

That's about the smartest conspiracy theory I've heard on this topic yet! I've been saying the same thing for years...

Yes, Trots, I knew I heard what i thought i heard. Thanks for pointin that out .

[Detroitnerd]

Trace it all back to the PBB contamination of the early 1970s.

[Ray1936]

Bannon was Deputy Chief of Police, and Ray was a Detroit Policeman long before you were even thought of, so I trust his judgment on police matters before I'd consider yours valid.

Executive Deputy Chief. What I meant was that Evans reminds me of top DPD executives that were still real street cops, like Bannon or Nichols. All too many execs hide behind their desks once they get there.

Morale is important in a semi-military organization. Seeing Evans hitting the bricks and addressing roll calls is a great morale builder, something I'm sure today's DPD needs.

Besides, I was just giving my gut reaction to the program. I've been away from the D for twenty-six years now.

[Hypestyles]

..no talk about lack of mass transit, and the other infrastructure woes.. I will be emailing mr. hansen..

[Michigan]

Pretty accurate overall. Perfect, no, but pretty good. I liked certain aspects of it.

[tallboy66]

True, but I'm specifically talking about the stores such as Honey Bee, Harbortown, Indian Village, University Foods, Glory and Mike's Fresh Market.

That's where majority of Detroiters shop for their groceries. Despite what people think, many of them do sell fresh food at relatively competitive prices [[but of course a few bad apples spoil the bunch). So I'm sure some do take offense when people say there are NO grocery stores [[instead of no CHAIN grocery stores) in Detroit.

University foods is pretty good, and no mention of Eastern Market, even on weekdays the markets are open. I'll admit I miss having a place like Bert's around Chicago, north side anyway.

Chains won't invest in the city other than Aldi's because it's not a place people have a lot of disposable income, in order to make money they need people to buy stuff they don't need not someone on food stamps and a minimum wage job in Troy who takes a 3 hour bus ride.

[Ray1936]

Chains won't invest in the city other than Aldi's because it's not a place people have a lot of disposable income, in order to make money they need people to buy stuff they don't need not someone on food stamps and a minimum wage job in Troy who takes a 3 hour bus ride.

More important, they need customers who don't shoplift the place blind. Shrinkage eats profits......FAST.

[firstandten]

More important, they need customers who don't shoplift the place blind. Shrinkage eats profits......FAST.

Dishonest employees as a rule steal much more than customers, some of the data I've seen had it at over seven times the amount.

[Zinger]

Education not be the whole answer, but the schools play a crucial role. Those children that are left in the DPS deserve the same opportunities as others, even if they are near the bottom of the economic ladder. Schools play a huge role in a child's life since they spend so much time there. Imagine what that does for a child when they can learn to read. Learning how to accomplish a goal such as reading will translate into being able to accomplish other goals.

The teachers/ administrators need as much help as they can get. Who cares where the help comes from? Whether from the "suburban mom's" [[loaded term) organization http://www.beyondbasics.org, from a parent, from the teacher, from a coach-who cares, as long as that child knows he/she is worth the effort and has success.