Ford Auditorium Architect Question

**Gistok** · April-25-10, 01:10 PM

Thanks all for the information about Ford Auditorium....

I had always thought that the reason that the acoustics were so miserable was because architects in the 50s and later lost the art of good acoustics which earlier architects had learned so well. But it was a different story altogether.... Ford Auditorium was built as just that... an auditorium. Only later was it decided to change it [[too little, too late) for symphonic use.

So this not only explains why the Detroit Symphony didn't like the venue... but also why the organ had so much trouble getting the sound into the auditorium.

I don't know why Ford family members are so toughy nosed about razing it... when it was built from the get-go as a very flawed building.

**Andrew in Windsor** · April-25-10, 05:42 PM

Gistok - Here's a list of Crane's work in Canada...

http://www.dictionaryofarchitectsinc...ects/view/1630

**56packman** · April-25-10, 06:01 PM

The reason that acoustics went down the tubes after WWII had little to do with knowledge, more to do with materials and shapes and sizes. Look at any building that is deemed "acoustically perfect" and most often it will seat less than 1300 people, that's the size part. an orchestra, sawing and blowing their hardest are going to make so many DBs of sound, that sound can only carry so far before it begins to weaken. The rooms built after the war were far simpler, and devoid of the kind of ornamentation that the earlier rooms had. All of that hard plaster gobbly-gook, all of the cherubs and temples and what not that made them fancy reflected the sound in completely random ways, which made for a good acoustic. The material, mostly plaster, was a good shell and helped reflect that sound. After the war the emphasis was on modern design, which often was a cinder block rectangle room with some teak strips tacked on the side walls to break up the uglyness of the block. Just in the last 15 years or so they have reversed the trend of terrible acoustics in new concert halls, the new Disney concert hall in LA is lauded for its acoustics, something that never happened in the 50s-70s.
I have been in new auditoria that didn't even have a ceiling, not so much as a dropped 2 x 4 tile job, just the Walmart look, all of the beams, ducts, conduits and lighting just up there.

**Krawlspace** · April-26-10, 10:27 AM

Boy, Gistok this is embarrassing.
You are absolutely right about the Madison, and citing the Emerald's website makes it all the more painful.
For you see, [[Secret Identity alert), I wrote the Emerald's History page.

I have been trying to rack my brain to figure out what Crane house I was thinking of when I transposed the Madison. I know there was one very similar in design and size from 1920. This seems to be happening a lot more to me since I packed up my library and don't have easy research access...

**Gistok** · April-28-10, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by 56packman

The reason that acoustics went down the tubes after WWII had little to do with knowledge, more to do with materials and shapes and sizes. Look at any building that is deemed "acoustically perfect" and most often it will seat less than 1300 people, that's the size part. an orchestra, sawing and blowing their hardest are going to make so many DBs of sound, that sound can only carry so far before it begins to weaken. The rooms built after the war were far simpler, and devoid of the kind of ornamentation that the earlier rooms had. All of that hard plaster gobbly-gook, all of the cherubs and temples and what not that made them fancy reflected the sound in completely random ways, which made for a good acoustic. The material, mostly plaster, was a good shell and helped reflect that sound. After the war the emphasis was on modern design, which often was a cinder block rectangle room with some teak strips tacked on the side walls to break up the uglyness of the block. Just in the last 15 years or so they have reversed the trend of terrible acoustics in new concert halls, the new Disney concert hall in LA is lauded for its acoustics, something that never happened in the 50s-70s.
I have been in new auditoria that didn't even have a ceiling, not so much as a dropped 2 x 4 tile job, just the Walmart look, all of the beams, ducts, conduits and lighting just up there.

You're quite right 56packman.... C. Howard Crane [[likely more than once) mentioned that if a "theatre was pleasing to the eye, it would be pleasing to the ear as well". The ornate plasterwork had a 3 dimensionality to it that later modern theatres and auditoriums could never capture. And that's what throws the sound throughout the hall.

Ford Auditorium was worse than many halls... but even some of the best modern halls were lacking.

When Lincoln Center was built in the 1960s in New York, the new Metropolitan Opera House there was criticized as "certain death for small voice". And the Avery Fisher Hall in the same complex was not quite up to par acoustically... which is why the New York Philharmonic recently moved to Carnegie Hall for most of their performances.

Even when Detroit's Fisher Theatre was remodeled/reconstructed in 1961 in a smaller Teak and Brass shell... the acoustics weren't that good. A few years back I went to see Les Miserables at the Fisher, and we sat farther back in the balcony. The big complaint I got from the folks that came along.... was that they couldn't understand the words.

**56packman** · April-29-10, 08:16 AM

As for as the Fisher goes, these days touring shows are all heavily amplfied and actors all wear body mics, they can have 20-30 mics live in a show like that, and tons of amplification and speaker power, so like rock concert venues, the issue of acoustics is irrelevent. I took Mrs. 56Packman to the Fisher to see that same show about three years ago, I was misirable, and I could hear every word.

Originally Posted by Gistok

You're quite right 56packman.... C. Howard Crane [[likely more than once) mentioned that if a "theatre was pleasing to the eye, it would be pleasing to the ear as well". The ornate plasterwork had a 3 dimensionality to it that later modern theatres and auditoriums could never capture. And that's what throws the sound throughout the hall.

Ford Auditorium was worse than many halls... but even some of the best modern halls were lacking.

When Lincoln Center was built in the 1960s in New York, the new Metropolitan Opera House there was criticized as "certain death for small voice". And the Avery Fisher Hall in the same complex was not quite up to par acoustically... which is why the New York Philharmonic recently moved to Carnegie Hall for most of their performances.

Even when Detroit's Fisher Theatre was remodeled/reconstructed in 1961 in a smaller Teak and Brass shell... the acoustics weren't that good. A few years back I went to see Les Miserables at the Fisher, and we sat farther back in the balcony. The big complaint I got from the folks that came along.... was that they couldn't understand the words.

**detroitbob** · April-29-10, 10:14 PM

We sat in the front row of the loge last Thursday for "Spring Awakening" and although the show was not over-amplified, some of the lyrics were hard to understand. Overall, the Fisher has held up well and it's hard to believe it is almost 50 years since it reopened.

**Gistok** · April-30-10, 12:28 AM

56packman... I know that amplifiiers and speakers should help... but sometimes they really don't. I've sat under the balcony and mezzanine overhang at the Fox during a Keith Richards concert, and the sound was rather muffled and poor. Later during the 2nd half of the performance we sat in empty seats in front half of the balcony, and the sound was much much better.

**56packman** · April-30-10, 08:11 AM

Gistok--this is absolutely true. The area under balcony overhangs in traditional theaters is a soundtrap, sound does not want to go there on its own.

**Gistok** · April-30-10, 10:53 PM

Very true 56packman... and what makes it worse is when there's a horseshoe shaped mezzanine [[loge) under the balcony... if you're under that... then you're really dealing with poor sound, as well as poor acoustics.

Interestingly enough... most of Detroit's downtown movie palaces have/had a mezzanine or box level [[Fox, Fillmore/State, Opera House, Michigan, United Artists, Orchestra Hall). But Music Hall has a 2nd balcony instead of the mezzanine/balcony combo... second balconies are a throwback to the theatres of the 19th century.

In Cleveland's theatre district [[Playhouse Square) none of the theatres have a mezzanine [[Palace, Ohio, State, Allen, Hanna). But there are many theatre's nationwide that do, mostly the larger ones.

**56packman** · May-01-10, 12:12 AM

Architects hated making the mezzanine loges back in the 20s, their rationale was that the sightlines were horrible and the sound was bad, pretty accurate 80 years later, but the theatre owners loved them because they could charge extra for them.

**Gistok** · May-01-10, 07:32 PM

Various ticket prices to a show at the Michigan Theatre back in the 1970s, when it was known as the Michigan Palace, and showed mainly rock concerts.....

**Sempringham** · August-07-10, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by detroitbob

The last partner was George Wiltsie,[[sp) I believe. He took the firm over after the death of Kellogg. The office moved to the Industrial Bldg at Washington Blvd and Grand River and finally relocated to Traverse City area. Some of the later work was for small theatre chains in the Lansing area, doing two and three shopping center auditoriums. I believe he died in the late 90's...will search for more info.

Close! LOUIS Wiltse [[pronounced WILT-see) assumed ownership of the firm after the death of Kellogg. I just talked to Mr. Wiltse last month in connection with a biographical article I'm writing on Ollivier J. Vinour, who worked for Crane for a couple of years. I'm happy to report Mr. Wiltse is alive and well and living in Arizona.

**marcwigle** · August-07-10, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

56packman... I know that amplifiiers and speakers should help... but sometimes they really don't. I've sat under the balcony and mezzanine overhang at the Fox during a Keith Richards concert, and the sound was rather muffled and poor. Later during the 2nd half of the performance we sat in empty seats in front half of the balcony, and the sound was much much better.

I could be wrong but I would say that Keith voice is "rather muffled and poor".

**marcwigle** · August-07-10, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Various ticket prices to a show at the Michigan Theatre back in the 1970s, when it was known as the Michigan Palace, and showed mainly rock concerts.....

Six bucks to see ZZ Top AND T-Rex??!! Damn ripoff!!

How was ths show? Would have loved to have been there!

**Patrick** · August-07-10, 03:03 PM

Is it possible to "fix" the shitty sound and acoustics???

**East Detroit** · August-07-10, 06:11 PM

Didnt they attempt that by hanging drapes from the ceiling?

**Gistok** · August-07-10, 06:20 PM

Patrick... anything is possible... but at what cost? And with both a historic symphonic and operatic hall in Detroit with great acoustics, good acoustics may not be all that necessary with all the sound amplification that come with other shows.

Some of the old movie palaces that were converted to symphonic and operatic use also had questionable acoustics. Things like sound baffles in the side walls and ceilings, and acoustic shells framing the stage area have been done to make them usable for symphonic/operatic uses.

But one of the things that hurts Ford Auditorium are its flat walls and surfaces. Good acoustics usually needs irregular [[nooks and crannies) surface areas in the auditorium to disperse the sound.

**Jason** · August-07-10, 06:41 PM

Basically, you figure out where the sound is coming from, and where it needs to go, and then you build a shell within the walls and ceiling in such a way that the sound is properly bounced from the stage to the audience.

I don't think it needs to be renovated for the symphony since they won't be moving back to Ford Auditorium. It could have rock concerts, graduation ceremonies, and maybe movies [[???).

**detroitbob** · August-07-10, 07:05 PM

Don't forget the Symphony [[particularly Mrs. Edsel Ford and Ford Mtr Co) poured money into the place...stage shells, side wall changes, stage walls, new side walls---wavey red undulating side walls, subtle amplification, No one was ever happy. Arie Crowne Theatre in Chicago was another example of a "nothing will help this place" auditoriums, although it was not intended for a symphony--for that fact Ford was conceived as a 'civic auditorium' not a symphony hall...that happened after the place was designed and construction had started. Now with the building being essentially abandoned, who knows what would need to get it open again. Also the asbestos question would come into play with any new major renovations.

**Gistok** · August-07-10, 07:16 PM

Good points detroitbob...

Didn't the New York Philharmonic move out of Avery Fisher Hall at the New York MET, and into Carnegie Hall? I still see holiday performances at Fisher Hall, but perhaps they play most of their season at Carnegie Hall.

Even the New York Metropolitan Opera House [[MET) adjacent to Avery Fisher Hall is known to be "certain death for small voices".

Of course the "modernism" in architecture in the 1950s and 1960s [[and beyond) was a major factor in poor acoustics.

**detroitbob** · August-07-10, 08:16 PM

Actually, my memories of the MET in NYC are of a good sound, with all voices carrying fairly well, but I was lucky to be treated to center main floor seats for Der Rosenkavalier...a drop dead, pull out all the sets and chandeliers and mirrors ala Vienna plus costumes and wigs and a day and a half later the Zef TOSCA also a massive production but in the 2nd mezzanine, also very good sound

I hear Avery Fisher Hall is probably better now that it ever has been, but I've never been to the NYP, so I can't comment. Carnagie is not the home of the Philharmonic...it was the home before the move to AFH. Carnagie has no resident companies...the produce ther own seasons, i.e. recitals, visiting orchestras and the like.