Could MCS be used again for light rail depot?

[LL Cool D]

Ghetto, it's not that Detroit is different, it's that those other places are different. When I went to boot camp, there were two camps, one on the east coast, and one on the west coast. I went to the one on the west coast. Stick with me. The one on the east coast included driver's ed! Why? Because all those city pussies from Philly, NYC, and Boston couldn't drive!

Name me one red-blooded sixteen-year-old kid in Detroit who didn't drive his own, very own, two-hundred dollar beater, loaded with all the aftermarket stereo sh*t, etc., that he could get his hands on. My own '72 Skylark was pimped-out to the max with white-vinyl seats I got for pocket change at a junk yard. It's culture, baby, it's culture. Nothing to be ashamed of, it's a Detroit thing.

[SpartanTom]

Get real, people. I saw my kid sister off on one of the last trains to leave for NYC, and the place was a creepy mausoleum. Thought experiment: If MCS didn't exist, would you build it? Would anyone? No, it would be stupid. MCS is done, stick a fork in it.

You're missing the point though. MCS IS THERE. It was built already, and whether it was a good or bad idea is a moot point. This massive hulk is just sitting there at the crossroads of all these rail lines, rotting away. Why not use it as a hub for commuter rail with links to light rail and buses? It would be massively beneficial, and I'm sure it would get plenty of use at the mid-point of Chicago and Toronto.

[Patrick]

Stick with me. The one on the east coast included driver's ed! Why? Because all those city pussies from Philly, NYC, and Boston couldn't drive!

Shit, it's like that now with all the "city folk" here in VA. They never had to worry about cars until now. Come on, at least make an effort to learn how to drive an automatic lol.

[dove-7]

Maybe you missed this:

http://fastlane.dot.gov/2010/01/pres...peed-rail.html


And a press release from Amtrak on the piecemeal, shittastic system we have now:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...rship_FY10.pdf

[[Ridership on the Wolverine Service for March 2010 was up 12.0% over March 2009.)

While transit is needed, there isn't enough business, density etc. to justify opening up MCS. Those are two different topics. Transit most def. needed in Detroit, but it's the metro that would benefit from it more due to major/corporate business primarily in the metro/suburbs. Detroit doesn't have what Chicago, L.A. Sam Francisco and NYC has. And it those elements that has kept their retro stations open. Shit, even Kansas retro station, one that I've been in riding the train has a thriving station. Same with Denver. But two reasons why it Kansas's is working one, Kansas is the heart of the metro and they added movie theaters and many other entertainment and food joints to keep it going. They also renovated the place. It's a beautiful station.

[dove-7]

You're missing the point though. MCS IS THERE. It was built already, and whether it was a good or bad idea is a moot point. This massive hulk is just sitting there at the crossroads of all these rail lines, rotting away. Why not use it as a hub for commuter rail with links to light rail and buses? It would be massively beneficial, and I'm sure it would get plenty of use at the mid-point of Chicago and Toronto.

Dude, there are hulking buildings everywhere. Do you save them because they're just there? Now tell me this? Where is the money going to come from and how is this train station going to maintain the MCS? You do know that buildings have to be maintained right? And it takes money to maintain a building.

It's nice that you are throwing ideas out there, but you need to come up with some better concepts to justify the building staying in business. Links, light rail and buses only will work if their is a major business hub there to bring those into the equation.

[ghettopalmetto]

Dove-7, your posts above implicitly posit two questions:

1) Why is it that Detroit's center is dysfunctional compared to other metropolitan areas?

2) What can be done to prompt reconstruction of the urban core of the city proper?

[SpartanTom]

While transit is needed, there isn't enough business, density etc. to justify opening up MCS. Those are two different topics. Transit most def. needed in Detroit, but it's the metro that would benefit from it more due to major/corporate business primarily in the metro/suburbs. Detroit doesn't have what Chicago, L.A. Sam Francisco and NYC has. And it those elements that has kept their retro stations open. Shit, even Kansas retro station, one that I've been in riding the train has a thriving station. Same with Denver. But two reasons why it Kansas's is working one, Kansas is the heart of the metro and they added movie theaters and many other entertainment and food joints to keep it going. They also renovated the place. It's a beautiful station.

You're thinking about this the wrong way. High speed rail is more of an alternative to flying than for driving. It is for linking major metropolitan areas hundreds of miles away and will draw people from many miles around similar to an airport. Look at metro airport in Romulus. There isn't shit around, but people flock there in droves to travel. MCS would draw plenty of traffic.

And I highly disagree with your assertion that Detroit is not the heart of this metro region. For what it has lost, it still has a whole lot to offer, and it will only [[hopefully) get better from here.

[SpartanTom]

Dude, there are hulking buildings everywhere. Do you save them because they're just there? Now tell me this? Where is the money going to come from and how is this train station going to maintain the MCS? You do know that buildings have to be maintained right? And it takes money to maintain a building.

It's nice that you are throwing ideas out there, but you need to come up with some better concepts to justify the building staying in business. Links, light rail and buses only will work if their is a major business hub there to bring those into the equation.

I would say that the MCS is more than you're average hulking building. It is iconic, massive, and perfectly located at the confluence of all of these major rail lines. Perfect for *gasp* a TRAIN STATION!

As for the money... it would likely be mostly public in the form of transit grants, tax credits, whatever maybe some private from the developer looking to benefit, maybe some from the rail companies. I don't know I'm no expert on financing, but I do know that airports are built every day, and other iconic train depots have been restored, so it can be done.

Obviously if the entire building were restored, the original intent of the upper floors were for office space, so I see that or a hotel, anything really. Why so negative?

[Rocko]

Go Google St. Paul Union Depot and you'll see the local governments are slowly but surely stitching together a renovated historic terminal serving light rail, buses, Amtrak, and one day, high speed rail. It will be beautiful when done.

Kansas City has a fantastically adaptively reused Union Station, which also still serves as an Amtrak Station. As does Cincinnati Union Terminal. All are historic terminals, built during the Golden Era.

[casscorridor]

Detroit might not be the center of the metro, but it is more center than any other place. It still has the highest concentration of offices. It still has one of the highest population densities. If you include Midtown and Downtown, I think the daytime population is pretty huge, enough to support light-rail and commuter rail. But the potential of the area is limited precisely because there are so few transit options. This is a build it and they will come scenario, but in Michigan our politicians aren't willing to take the risk. But not having a strong central Detroit hurts all of the metro and the entire state as a whole. Young people continue to flee the state because there is no urban option that suits them. They go to Chicago or other cities. There is really no reason, beyond climate, that Detroit can't be just as good. I don't think it would really take that long to make vibrant neighborhoods. It might take a long time to revive the entire city, but take Midtown for example -- so much as changed since 10 years ago, imagine what it will look like 10 years from now. I think its hard to imagine.

[Detroitnerd]

Well if you read my post in it's entire, you'd also see that I addressed that you have several things going on, all don't reside in the city, most of major businesses are primarily done outside of Detroit in the metro areas, politics and red tape that prevent a true transit and business from flourishing in the city that makes a city thrive.

Classic: When you're on the losing end of an argument, change the subject.

So what if "all don't reside in the city?" Do you think that just because people don't live downtown they don't deserve transit choices? What's more, if you had transit choices, such as light rail, it would help free up space downtown for other uses than parking. Light rail also sparks dense development, and Detroit is well-suited for that, having good old 19th century "bones" for that sort of thing. And you'll likely see people who simply get sick of driving back and forth and simply move to Midtown, preferring instead to keep their car for pleasure trips and simply straphang as they do in other cities.

As for the argument that "most of the business is done outside Detroit," who the fuck cares? Try building a light rail network in Troy or Novi or Clinton Township! It doesn't have the bones for that stuff. Here we have a perfectly good opportunity to "restore" light rail service to Detroit's main stem. Do it. Help draw business into downtown Detroit. Help draw creative professionals who enjoy an urban environment. Do it now, before gas climbs back up to $4 a gallon and beyond.

As for taxes and red tape, this is the legacy we are left with from decades, perhaps even a century, of Detroit's leaders courting huge developers as the expense of mom-and-pop businesses and individuals. Nobody except the kleptocrats are happy with this [[and the suburban leaders who benefit from how this encourages businesses to locate in the suburbs). No arguments there.

But I notice that, again, you add a slight against Detroit business. What's up with that, dood?

"Politics and red tape ... prevent a true ... business from flourishing in the city."

I guess I just have to ask you, what makes the more than 100,000 employees of Detroit, from New Center down to Midtown, any less "true" than the 100,000 employees in, say, Troy, if there are that many these days? This is the sort of thing that makes me think you have not joined this discussion to reason through Detroit's light rail options so much as to rationalize Detroit's lack of light rail options. That's sad, dood.

Detroit is an isolated city, no where in my post did I state that there aren't professionals in Detroit. What I had stated is that the lack of business in the city isn't there like many think or would like to have in order for a MCS to be open.

Lack of business in the city isn't there like many think? Lack of business in the city isn't there like many would like to have in order for ...? You lost me ... dood.

I lived in the area most of my life and when I compare smaller major cities where most of the business is done in the city and it's the heart of everything, you'll see and know the difference. And there is a major difference. San Francisco has more than a 100,000 workers working in the city. They come from the city and outside. San Francisco is the heart of the Bay area northern Bay area, but we also have the southern bay Area San Jose, that's even bigger and bigger than Detroit. If Detroit had what it lost, before the 80's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I've grew up in the suburbs, I've lived in New York City for 11 years, I've lived in Detroit for more than eight years all put together. I think I have a pretty fair idea of what Detroit is like and what other big cities are like. The real question to me is: Do you know what Detroit is like? I don't think you do.

[dove-7]

HOUSTON [[2.2 million people) UNION STATION: incorporated into minutemaid park.

PHEONIX [[1.5 million people) UNION STATION: has not had regular passenger service since 1996.

PHILADELPHIA [[1.5 million people) BROAD STREET STATION: demolished 1953. replaced by two stations.

SAN ANTONIO [[1.3 million people) SUNSET STATION: closed in 1998 and renovated into an entertainment complex. rail service moved to smaller station next door.

COLUMBUS [[750,000 people) UNION STATION: torn down in 1979. service moved to a smaller adjacent facility.

ST LOUIS had a population of 850,000 people in 1950.

MILWAUKEE [[population of 740,000 people in 1960) UNION STATION: torn down in 1965 and replaced with a smaller facility.

MINNEAPOLIS [[population of 550,000 in 1950) GREAT NORTHERN STATION: torn down in 1978 and not replaced.

[edit to add stations.]

Been to the old replacement station in Milwaukee several times. And yes it is smaller. I'll add Oakland, Cali to this list too.

The older station that still stands resembles a small MCS, it was ruined during the 1989 earthquake. The new station is much, much, much smaller and not even in Oakland. It's in Emeryville, Ca.

The fact the automobile, people leaving the cities for the suburbs and the industrial era peeked out during the 1950's killed the old method of travel.

I'd like to see the country go back to this due to the highway mess and pollution that we have.

[Hermod]

50 years ago detroit still utilized it's primary station.

stationS. Detroit had three stations [[Michigan Central, Fort Street, and Brush Street)

Michigan Central Station: B&O, CP, NYC
Fort Street Station: C&O, PRR, WAB
Brush Street Station: GTW

Data from the May 1956 Official Guide of the Railways.

If you came in from St Louis on the Wabash Cannonball, you had to take a cab 1-5/8 miles to MCS to take the NYC Beeliner to Saginaw.

[Detroitnerd]

stationS. Detroit had three stations [[Michigan Central, Fort Street, and Brush Street)

Michigan Central Station: B&O, CP, NYC
Fort Street Station: C&O, PRR, WAB
Brush Street Station: GTW

Data from the May 1956 Official Guide of the Railways.

If you came in from St Louis on the Wabash Cannonball, you had to take a cab 1-5/8 miles to MCS to take the NYC Beeliner to Saginaw.

Reminds me of the mile distance between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan, the PATH to MetroNorth transfer.

[dove-7]

I know that you were doing a editing job on the redundant nonsense that took place which is understandable, but it's a bad edit job. At least put back up my reply to this?

"Here's one that had nothing to do with what you took down.

Dove-7, your posts above implicitly posit two questions:

1) Why is it that Detroit's center is dysfunctional compared to other metropolitan areas?

2) What can be done to prompt reconstruction of the urban core of the city proper?"