Could MCS be used again for light rail depot?

**Umbound** · April-12-10, 04:35 PM

This is just a random thought I had about the train station. Could the MCS be redone in the future for a light rail stop? I know there is Moroun and other entinties involved, but maybe a stop for people coming from the downriver communities or have it be that point/hub where each train could lead to somewhere in the metro area/city? Offer Matty a huge tax break or something so as long as its developed for rail use. This is just a thought thrown out and would like to hear comments [[besides bashing Matty Moroun which is heard enough on here haha)

**Detroitnerd** · April-12-10, 04:42 PM

I would like to see the railroad station be re-used ... as a railroad station.

Seriously, though, MCS was designed to be linked with the city streetcar system, and it's not unreasonable to think it could have a light-rail component if redeveloped.

**mwilbert** · April-12-10, 04:51 PM

I suppose you could put a light rail stop anyplace, not that I expect any kind of rail down Vernor anytime soon.

Making it the hub of a area rail system makes as much sense as making it the central zeppelin loading point for the metro area--it is in a ridiculous place.

**Detroitnerd** · April-12-10, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I suppose you could put a light rail stop anyplace, not that I expect any kind of rail down Vernor anytime soon.

Making it the hub of a area rail system makes as much sense as making it the central zeppelin loading point for the metro area--it is in a ridiculous place.

My point being that, since it was a train station, it is still well suited to be a train station.

You will note that I did not say it should be the hub of a rail system. That is your invention. Only in a very small city would "rail station" and "system hub" be synonymous. New York has several. Detroit, at its peak, had three: One station and two depots.

We hardly remember why Detroit often located stuff outside downtown back after 1910. It's that there was no room for a station downtown. The presumption that the west side would fill in never did come to pass.

I bandied the idea of a downtown rail station about with some other folks. They had some good ideas, such as bringing it right over the Lodge and down into a subterranean station right downtown. That would be cool.

Of course, since most rail traffic enters downtown from the west [[isn't that interesting?), you'd likely want a station outside of downtown so that people driving down to pick up passengers had a little more room to park or drive up and pick up their friends.

See? It all makes sense, doesn't it? And we didn't see Zeppelin One dock.

**Hermod** · April-12-10, 06:28 PM

MCS was built as the regional office [[Michigan Central) of the New York Central system. MCS is an office building with a train station incorporated into the lower floor. The station complex also contained a major Railway Express Agency terminal and a Railway Post Office terminal. Out of all of these functions for MCS, only one remains viable and that is the AMTRAK passenger station. In many cities in the US, AMTRAK has moved out of the large, imposing, and architecturally significant stations [[which are uneconomical to heat, cool, secure, and operate) and into nondescript cinder block buildings which contain the passenger train essentials [[ticket office, waiting room, and a small baggage room). For a half a dozen trains a day, that is really all that you need. Even if AMTRAK was to move back into MCS, what would you do with all of the other floors? The railroads serving Detroit have their corporate offices elsewhere. You don't need a small army of freight clerks, car clerks, per diem clerks, bill of lading clerks, etc. to run a railroad as you did when MCS was full of steady activity.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · April-12-10, 08:32 PM

Agreed with above.....unfortunately since rail travel is still not a real significant form of travel the train portion probably wont be of any use unless it's for tourism [[ie. Greenfield Village, etc)...it has promise as a restaurant, museum, office, hotel, type building....however to meet code a new stairwell would have to be added to be acceptable for hotel or apartment use.

It's going to be a long and exhausting battle for MCS, the big thing is that several major business need to take a risk, then I feel more industry and tourism will come to fruition. Leading more people out of downtown and maybe bringing back some form of transport spanning the 2 mile distance between downtown.....it's just a matter of risk.....and until that risk is taken, Maroun won't take the risk either, because if he fixes it and no one comes, he'll have an nice looking empty building that could be outdated by the time someone comes along....would you take that risk?

**iheartthed** · April-13-10, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

In many cities in the US, AMTRAK has moved out of the large, imposing, and architecturally significant stations [[which are uneconomical to heat, cool, secure, and operate) and into nondescript cinder block buildings which contain the passenger train essentials [[ticket office, waiting room, and a small baggage room).

I think Detroit is the only U.S. city of its size that has moved train operations from away from their "large, imposing, and architecturally significant stations".

**downtown_racine** · April-12-10, 04:58 PM

LMAO @ Central zeppelin loading point.

**n7hn** · April-12-10, 10:02 PM

That risk shoulda been thought of before "someone" bought it up without a plan...... DUH .... SH*T or get off the pot already

**CLAUDE G** · April-13-10, 12:09 AM

You need to go and visit the Amtrack station accross by the Fisher building, and you will see why Michigan Central Depot really can never be a rail depot again.

The Amtrack station near the Fisher building is about the size of a Mc Donalds resturant, and I think there is just 2 tracks running behind it.

The problem is that people simply do not travel by train like they used to, and with the amount of traffic the place gets it doesn't justify having a building as large as the michigan central depot. Just the heating bill alone in the winter months, is enough to make the place un-profitable.

The best use for the Train Depot would actually be a Casino/Hotel, the problem is that its so far out of the way it will never work. The next best idea is Police headquarters.

As much as I would like to see it used again, its in the wrong side of town.

**iheartthed** · April-13-10, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by CLAUDE G

You need to go and visit the Amtrack station accross by the Fisher building, and you will see why Michigan Central Depot really can never be a rail depot again.

The Amtrack station near the Fisher building is about the size of a Mc Donalds resturant, and I think there is just 2 tracks running behind it.

The problem is that people simply do not travel by train like they used to, and with the amount of traffic the place gets it doesn't justify having a building as large as the michigan central depot. Just the heating bill alone in the winter months, is enough to make the place un-profitable.

The best use for the Train Depot would actually be a Casino/Hotel, the problem is that its so far out of the way it will never work. The next best idea is Police headquarters.

As much as I would like to see it used again, its in the wrong side of town.

Plenty of people still ride trains. Just because Detroit doesn't offer sufficient train service doesn't mean that everyone else does the same. People in Chicago ride trains. People in Toronto ride trains. If this high speed rail initiative gets going, guess what city passengers riding a high speed train from Chicago to Toronto would have to pass through?

Oh yeah, but you tore your train station down/made it into a police station/made it into a casino.

**dove-7** · April-13-10, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Plenty of people still ride trains. Just because Detroit doesn't offer sufficient train service doesn't mean that everyone else does the same. People in Chicago ride trains. People in Toronto ride trains. If this high speed rail initiative gets going, guess what city passengers riding a high speed train from Chicago to Toronto would have to pass through?

Oh yeah, but you tore your train station down/made it into a police station/made it into a casino.

Yeah, but Chicago and Toronto are both active cities where the cities are the heart of everything and not the opposite in the Detroit. These two cities are 3 millions plus cities with business and trains that run both out of the State and separate ones that take workers back to the metro. The same is here in the Cali. Bay area.

**hudkina** · April-13-10, 12:58 AM

A casino is never too far out of the way. I too think the best bet is to turn it into a casino/hotel. Isn't there an idea floating around to build a few more non-indian casinos around Michigan with the idea that one more would be given to the city of Detroit. I would even give it an Irish theme to go with Corktown.

**casscorridor** · April-13-10, 02:11 AM

The depot is located in a place where all the lines come together, including the one that goes under the Detroit River into Canada. Having the station anywhere else wouldn't work if there is going to be any connection to Canada, unless it was even further west! The distance from Downtown is not that far, and a inner-city rail connection or even buses could quickly transport people into Downtown and other neighborhoods.

The very point of renovating the depot is to signal a radical change in transportation. We need more people riding rail. There is an effort to build a new bridge to increase trucking, an an effort to build an entire city around the airport, as well as an plan to expand I-94 and I-75, and even there is even a plan to expand the rail tunnel under the river for freight. But almost no attention is given to public transportation. Billions are handed out to super-projects that drain public dollars and lead to little benefit for ordinary people.

What we need is a choice to take public transit, to take a train to instead of driving. To take a high-speed rail instead of flying. We don't really have that choice now. Isn't that what America was suppose to be about? Choices? Then why are there so few choices for transportation? It can't be because no one wants to take it, because studies have shown that people want public transit. The problem is that the transit, at least in metro Detroit is so awful that if you can afford to have a car and drive you probably do, it isn't really a choice for most people who take the bus regularly. We need transit that is so good that people who can afford a car choose the transit over the car. Transit that benifits everyone, instead of being exclusive to those who can afford it, considering cars can cost around eight thousand dollars a years, and the average Detroit income is less than twenty. We do not live in an equitable society, and our transportation system reflects this fact.

**Hermod** · April-13-10, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

What we need is a choice to take public transit, to take a train to instead of driving. To take a high-speed rail instead of flying. We don't really have that choice now. Isn't that what America was suppose to be about?
[[snip)
We do not live in an equitable society, and our transportation system reflects this fact.

I want the choice to take a river steamer from Detroit to Port Huron like the old Tashmoo. Why can't I have my choice?

I want to be carried around in a sedan chair by public servants. Why can't I have my choice?

I want the bus to stop at my front door every five minutes and take me quickly to wherever I want to go for a dollar. Why can't I have my choice?.

America is about giving you opportunities, not guarantee that all of your "wants" will be available as choices [[on demand).

**ghettopalmetto** · April-13-10, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

I want the choice to take a river steamer from Detroit to Port Huron like the old Tashmoo. Why can't I have my choice?

I want to be carried around in a sedan chair by public servants. Why can't I have my choice?

I want the bus to stop at my front door every five minutes and take me quickly to wherever I want to go for a dollar. Why can't I have my choice?.

America is about giving you opportunities, not guarantee that all of your "wants" will be available as choices [[on demand).

I find it pretty sad and disgusting that nations far poorer than the United States--like Poland and Venezuela, and well, pretty much every other civilized nation on earth--can invest in upgrading their rail systems while we treat it as some kind of luxury that we just can't afford.

MDOT spends more money each year cutting the grass in freeway medians than it does to provide its current Amtrak service.

The 1950s are over. Your way doesn't work. Moving on....

**dove-7** · April-13-10, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I find it pretty sad and disgusting that nations far poorer than the United States--like Poland and Venezuela, and well, pretty much every other civilized nation on earth--can invest in upgrading their rail systems while we treat it as some kind of luxury that we just can't afford.

MDOT spends more money each year cutting the grass in freeway medians than it does to provide its current Amtrak service.

The 1950s are over. Your way doesn't work. Moving on....

Keep in mind too, those poor areas have a different type of system/government where they make public transit priority numero uno. You try that here and people will be fucking yelling socialism. And with the Big three still in running the show, they're not going to make it easy to make this happen in Detroit. And before even that battle can happen, Detroit has to have what they lost, business and population.

Places that were once smaller that Detroit for several decades now are bigger and have a transit because business has flourished there. San Jose, Ca. San Diego, Phoenix etc.

**casscorridor** · April-13-10, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

I want the choice to take a river steamer from Detroit to Port Huron like the old Tashmoo. Why can't I have my choice?

I want to be carried around in a sedan chair by public servants. Why can't I have my choice?

I want the bus to stop at my front door every five minutes and take me quickly to wherever I want to go for a dollar. Why can't I have my choice?.

America is about giving you opportunities, not guarantee that all of your "wants" will be available as choices [[on demand).

Well those two examples you used are impractical, and inefficient. I think the point that you are missing is that America gives you the choice of what road you want to drive on, so long as you have a car to drive on it. It gives you the choice of what kind of car you drive, so long as you can afford one. But if you can't afford a car or just don't have one, you are really left out. It isn't about having all possible choices available, it is about not having only once choice. And for most of America, the only form of transit is a private auto. For my Americans, there is no opportunity to take transit, even if they chose to! I don't even really care that much about what kind of transit, just that it is exists and is a realistic alternative to autos. Your examples are not realistic. Alternatives such as buses and trains are. Our government spends billions upon billions of dollars on freeways for private cars to drive on, but gives almost nothing to public transit.

**Hypestyles** · April-13-10, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

The depot is located in a place where all the lines come together, including the one that goes under the Detroit River into Canada. Having the station anywhere else wouldn't work if there is going to be any connection to Canada, unless it was even further west! The distance from Downtown is not that far, and a inner-city rail connection or even buses could quickly transport people into Downtown and other neighborhoods.

The very point of renovating the depot is to signal a radical change in transportation. We need more people riding rail. There is an effort to build a new bridge to increase trucking, an an effort to build an entire city around the airport, as well as an plan to expand I-94 and I-75, and even there is even a plan to expand the rail tunnel under the river for freight. But almost no attention is given to public transportation. Billions are handed out to super-projects that drain public dollars and lead to little benefit for ordinary people.

What we need is a choice to take public transit, to take a train to instead of driving. To take a high-speed rail instead of flying. We don't really have that choice now. Isn't that what America was suppose to be about? Choices? Then why are there so few choices for transportation? It can't be because no one wants to take it, because studies have shown that people want public transit. The problem is that the transit, at least in metro Detroit is so awful that if you can afford to have a car and drive you probably do, it isn't really a choice for most people who take the bus regularly. We need transit that is so good that people who can afford a car choose the transit over the car. Transit that benifits everyone, instead of being exclusive to those who can afford it, considering cars can cost around eight thousand dollars a years, and the average Detroit income is less than twenty. We do not live in an equitable society, and our transportation system reflects this fact.

the anti-tax absolutists don't want to see improved transit, bus or rail..

**goggomobil** · April-13-10, 09:18 AM

I don't think Poland or Venezuela have anywhere near the cars-to-people ratio that we have. They have to spend money on mass transit. We need to as well.

As to how many Americans are using cars for tranportation, we are more in the 1950s now than we were in the 1950s.

**ghettopalmetto** · April-13-10, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by goggomobil

I don't think Poland or Venezuela have anywhere near the cars-to-people ratio that we have.

No, they don't. But those countries also don't have a de facto REQUIREMENT for people to own cars.

Retroit · April-13-10, 09:46 AM

What is the status of Obama's High Speed Rail Proposal announced a year ago? Where will the terminus be in Detroit?

**goggomobil** · April-13-10, 09:39 AM

Right. We're not Poland or Venezuela. We're stuck with an infrastructure that evolved with oil as an ever-lasting cheap energy supply. So which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we design a light rail system around the present situation of population placement, workplaces, and retail shopping, or do we wait for an energy cost apocalypse that will force the aforementioned situation to relocate in a tighter nucleus, and then build a rail system?

**ghettopalmetto** · April-13-10, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by goggomobil

Right. We're not Poland or Venezuela. We're stuck with an infrastructure that evolved with oil as an ever-lasting cheap energy supply. So which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we design a light rail system around the present situation of population placement, workplaces, and retail shopping, or do we wait for an energy cost apocalypse that will force the aforementioned situation to relocate in a tighter nucleus, and then build a rail system?

The irony is, Venezuela has a cheaper oil supply than we do, as their government subsidizes it.

If Americans in the 1920s and 1930s thought the same way that our current band of idiot leaders does, we would never have paved roads. We would hear excuses like, "Well, we already have trains and streetcars. Why do we need paved roads? Why do we need to build airports? We can't possibly afford these luxuries. Let's let the rest of the civilized world pass us by."

Greatest Country in the World, my ass. We're nothing more than 300 million stupid, lazy, selfish, petulant, and short-sighted sons of bitches.

**Sstashmoo** · April-13-10, 11:42 AM

If all these were such great ideas, MCS would have never shuttered. Like the boxer who exclaims after losing the fight, "I wanna fight him again", he just did and lost.

This query that other countries have practical rail travel, why don't we? These other countries are poor and few there own cars. Although, thanks to those wishing for that type of society, we're getting closer everyday.