Religion directly related to crime

**maxx** · April-18-10, 10:22 AM

littlebuddy wrote: Get rid of religion and its influence on nations and people and in a generation or two you would have total chaos as every person would do what they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted.

maxx: This is an old tired argument. Is there a nation that doesn't have laws to keep criminal behavior in check ? It's ludicrous to assume that people would just run amok without some religion to reward them for decent behavior.Do you think a theocracy could function without laws and prisons? Should justice be left to someone's god?
And when people talk about intolerance, let's not forget the lie perpetuated by religionists that atheists cannot be moral or have a lower form of morality because the religionists' morality came from some invisible super-person whose existence they cannot directly prove. My biggest objection to most religions is their miseducation of their flocks, their utter lack of respect for secular learning. I think Charlie Pierce in his book "Idiot America" quoted a minister in Dover, PA., shortly before the ID trial there who said something like "We are being attacked by the intelligent and educated." When intelligence and education are seen as bad, we are in trouble as a nation.

Zacha wrote: And the intolerance seen in today's society on several fronts, not just from some Christians.

maxx: Any "intolerance" xtians may be experiencing they brought on themselves with their incessant pushing for prayers in school, prayers before sports games, ID in science classes, and their distribution of misinformation on many issues icluding their rewriting of history.

**Sstashmoo** · April-18-10, 10:41 AM

Quote: "It seems when many proclaim themselves as atheists, they simply mean they are anti-Christian."

One of the best statements on this thread. When Atheists claim to have no religion, but attack others for theirs, they indeed do.

**maxx** · April-18-10, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "It seems when many proclaim themselves as atheists, they simply mean they are anti-Christian."

One of the best statements on this thread. When Atheists claim to have no religion, but attack others for theirs, they indeed do.

That just shows the narrowness of your own thinking. Xtians love to feel martyred and persecuted even while they are demanding that their religion be granted things that they wouldn't want other "wrong" religions to have. They claim this on the basis of the numbers which is a logical fallacy. The number of people who believed any proposition never made it true. At one time everyone "knew" the earth was flat. That just made common sense. It was the common wisdom which has proven time and time again to be wrong.

**Sstashmoo** · April-18-10, 01:34 PM

Quote: "Xtians love to feel martyred and persecuted even while they are demanding that their religion be granted things that they wouldn't want other "wrong" religions to have."

Outright lie.

Stosh · April-18-10, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Xtians love to feel martyred and persecuted even while they are demanding that their religion be granted things that they wouldn't want other "wrong" religions to have."

Outright lie.

Sure. Just like those idiots on other social media that are protesting Obama's National day of prayer omission [[ a lie) and also protesting the Muslims praying somewhere last year. What about meeee? Obama's destroying the Christian faith! OMG!

**rb336** · April-19-10, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "It seems when many proclaim themselves as atheists, they simply mean they are anti-Christian."

One of the best statements on this thread. When Atheists claim to have no religion, but attack others for theirs, they indeed do.

and yet when I asked for examples, no one provided them. In the US, it is the extremist christians who are the ones trying to force their mythology down everyone's throats, so it is natural for atheists to comment on them. [[see Maxx' comments above)

and stash, do you know the definition of religious? if you did, you wouldn't make a comment as ludicrous as the above. total non-sequitor

**Sstashmoo** · April-19-10, 08:02 AM

Quote: "In the US, it is the extremist christians who are the ones trying to force their mythology down everyone's throats,"

haha where?? Seriously, a few of you should seek medical help. Most people of faith as even evidenced on this forum, won't dare mention their faith around you folks. Someone puts up a nativity scene and you cry foul. So much for freedom of expression.

Incidentally, here is a definition of "Religion" from the free dictionary:

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

You and maxx making it your cause to harass and whine about Christianity-- is your religion..

**Sstashmoo** · April-19-10, 02:14 PM

Quote: "Just like those idiots on other social media that are protesting Obama's National day of prayer omission"

You seem reasonably intelligent, haven't you figured it out yet? The networks just play on your emotions, so they can keep you "tuned in" to watch 60-70 commercials an hour? Plus shape society with orders from their corporate masters. They can portray any group any way they want, it's controlled with the camera, what gets reported and what doesn't, what video to show and what to hide. What person to interview and who to avoid. Wake up man, turn that shit off.

**rb336** · April-19-10, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "In the US, it is the extremist christians who are the ones trying to force their mythology down everyone's throats,"

haha where??

"Intelligent Design," God money, tax-free status for churches so WE have to subsidize the police, fire, etc services provided to them, hence WE are supporting them, pushing for prayer in school, etc., the church's definition of when life begins [[the church's, mind you. not the bible's)

Seriously, a few of you should seek medical help. Most people of faith as even evidenced on this forum, won't dare mention their faith around you folks. Someone puts up a nativity scene and you cry foul. So much for freedom of expression.

as long as the nativity scene is on YOUR property and not on OUR [[public) property, go to town. at least we go about it legally [[and almost always win). your side vandalizes signs, cars, etc. that carry a freethought message

Incidentally, here is a definition of "Religion" from the free dictionary:

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

You and maxx making it your cause to harass and whine about Christianity-- is your religion..

that is really a stretch "I'll use the last possible definition of religion, the least accurate...that'll show them!"

besides, I said "religious"

**Sstashmoo** · April-19-10, 03:32 PM

Quote: "that is really a stretch "I'll use the last possible definition"

Number 4 in a list of about seven definitions. Can't you just say "Hey Stash, I was wrong"?

Quote: "as long as the nativity scene is on YOUR property and not on OUR [[public) property, go to town."

Where is your outrage when AOL advertises in our post offices? Bed bath and beyond and Home Depot offer coupons on the USPS website? Or is it that you only have disdain for Christians and anyone associated with them? I know the answer hypocrite. Some cities have ordinances against nativity scenes. Seriously, grow up, what is that nativity scene doing to you exactly? I know, it's reminding you of a truth you refuse to accept. Too bad not one judge had a set of balls during any of those rulings. I would have told you to mind your own business and sent you packing.

Quote: "God money, tax-free status for churches so WE have to subsidize the police, fire, etc services provided to them,"

The people that attend that Church [[Their place of worship), pay taxes for that.

Quote: "your side vandalizes signs, cars, etc. that carry a freethought message"

And your side is just perfect? Aborting children as a form of birth control, treating marriage like a temporary condition, it's only purpose often times is economics? Do unto others then bolt? You don't know what you're advocating.

**rb336** · April-19-10, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Where is your outrage when AOL advertises in our post offices? Bed bath and beyond and Home Depot offer coupons on the USPS website? Or is it that you only have disdain for Christians and anyone associated with them?

I know the answer hypocrite.

I hate billboards of all types. I dislike the idea of advertising in post offices or other govt. buildings-- i've never seen it myself. nothing hypocritical there

Some cities have ordinances against nativity scenes. Seriously, grow up, what is that nativity scene doing to you exactly? I know, it's reminding you of a truth you refuse to accept.

THERE ya go! you hit it on the head, just not the way you thought you would. perfect example of how you religionists can't accept that people don't believe your magic man in the sky BS and think you have the right to bludgeon everyone with your images and that the govt. should support that bludgeoning.

Too bad not one judge had a set of balls during any of those rulings. I would have told you to mind your own business and sent you packing.

since when is something on MY property, property I pay to support, not MY business?

The people that attend that Church [[Their place of worship), pay taxes for that.

oh, they do? so NONE of the money I pay in taxes will be used to pay for the investigation of a burglary or to put out a fire?
Please

Quote: "your side vandalizes signs, cars, etc. that carry a freethought message"

And your side is just perfect? Aborting children as a form of birth control, treating marriage like a temporary condition, it's only purpose often times is economics? Do unto others then bolt? You don't know what you're advocating.

I don't think a blob of undifferentiated cells is life. you do. so don't get an abortion

**Sstashmoo** · April-19-10, 05:47 PM

Quote: "I hate billboards of all types."

You hate Billboards? You must be one angry driver. rb, there are other people in this country and on this planet. They aren't going to live like you think they should. Deal with it.

Quote: "you religionists can't accept that people don't believe your"

What are you talking about? Non-believers? Society is full of them nowadays, just like the Bible said there would be.

Quote: "since when is something on MY property, property I pay to support, not MY business?"

It's your business, and mine too. Fortunately you can't always have your way. We live in a democracy where majority rules. Had the issue of nativity scenes been put up to a popular vote, you'd be walking around plastic goats and hay bales at Christmas, and liking it. Instead. a few whiners and belly-achers won out. What did you win? nothing, we're still here.

Quote: "oh, they do? so NONE of the money I pay in taxes will be used to pay for the investigation of a burglary or to put out a fire?
Please"

Oh goody, we can pick and choose how and whom our tax dollars are spent? Get real.

Quote: "I don't think a blob of undifferentiated cells is life."

I do. I don't know how anyone could even make that statement..

**firstandten** · April-20-10, 01:01 AM

I know this is somewhat off topic from the relationship between religion and crime. But how about this... The authors of Freakonomics make a compelling argument for the ability of women to have abortions as it relates to reduction in crime.

I know this is just about off everyones conventional wisdom map, but if the data bears out would you change your view on abortions if you were pro-life or would reduction of crime not be so important to you ? Or would you just say "to hell with the data, let me believe what I believe and don't confuse me with facts"

**Sstashmoo** · April-20-10, 01:19 AM

Abortion leads to reduction in crime? It also leads to reduction in human advancement, would you abort Einstein, Da vinci, Tesla or Edison?

**firstandten** · April-20-10, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Abortion leads to reduction in crime? It also leads to reduction in human advancement, would you abort Einstein, Da vinci, Tesla or Edison?

That might be true as well, but the authors were trying to explain the drop in American crime in the 90's They investigated many avenues to explain such a drop. The data suggested that all the reasons we might think, just were not true.

The reason why I mention this is that sometimes ideas that we hold up to being conventional wisdom don't have basis in fact.

One would think that a religious person would not be a criminal, but history has shown us for centuries of people killing each other in the name of religion. The Crusades readily come to mind.

If we strive to be enlightened people I believe we need to be open to ideas [[with data of course) that don't line up with our conventional wisdom

**rb336** · April-20-10, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "I hate billboards of all types."

You hate Billboards? You must be one angry driver. rb

so you like those eyesores all over the place?

Quote: "since when is something on MY property, property I pay to support, not MY business?"

It's your business, and mine too. Fortunately you can't always have your way. We live in a democracy where majority rules.

no, we live in a constitutional republic which has as part of its constitution a ban on government endorsement of religion

Quote: "oh, they do? so NONE of the money I pay in taxes will be used to pay for the investigation of a burglary or to put out a fire?
Please"

Oh goody, we can pick and choose how and whom our tax dollars are spent? Get real.

ah. you see how absurd it is -- I pay for services going to, and therefore support, the existence of your place of worship

Quote: "I don't think a blob of undifferentiated cells is life."

I do. I don't know how anyone could even make that statement..

they are living cells, not a life. the majority of the time, those cells fail to grow into a human

**rb336** · April-20-10, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Abortion leads to reduction in crime? It also leads to reduction in human advancement, would you abort Einstein, Da vinci, Tesla or Edison?

odds are much higher it would be a Dahmer, and much much higher that it would be a garden variety rapist or murderer or thug

**Sstashmoo** · April-20-10, 09:18 AM

Quote: "odds are much higher it would be a Dahmer, and much much higher that it would be a garden variety rapist or murderer or thug"

Oh really? Now you're clairvoyant? You have absolutely no way of determining how an aborted child would have turned out to be, and what they would have done with their life. Isn't it you that was arguing "liberals are smarter" a few weeks ago. Incidentally, the same folks that practice abortion. You're contradicting yourself.

Quote: "so you like those eyesores all over the place?"

Quite frankly, they don't bother me, I have come to accept them as Americana and typical of our cityscapes.

Quote: "we live in a constitutional republic which has as part of its constitution a ban on government endorsement of religion"

Where in the Constitution? It says the government will uphold the freedom to practice and uphold the freedom to express. You and yours would abolish it tomorrow and try at every juncture to suppress both of those constitutional freedoms.

Quote: "ah. you see how absurd it is -- I pay for services going to, and therefore support, the existence of your place of worship"

And for that I extend a very heartfelt "Thank You"

Quote: "they are living cells, not a life. the majority of the time, those cells fail to grow into a human"

You apparently don't know much about this subject. Matter of fact, I'm not going to reply on it anymore.

**rb336** · April-20-10, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "odds are much higher it would be a Dahmer, and much much higher that it would be a garden variety rapist or murderer or thug"

Oh really? Now you're clairvoyant? You have absolutely no way of determining how an aborted child would have turned out to be, and what they would have done with their life.

no need for clairvoyance, just playing the odds. I was just showing you how mindless your comment was

Quote: "we live in a constitutional republic which has as part of its constitution a ban on government endorsement of religion"

Where in the Constitution? It says the government will uphold the freedom to practice and uphold the freedom to express. You and yours would abolish it tomorrow and try at every juncture to suppress both of those constitutional freedoms.

actually, it says that there shall be no laws respecting religion. and if you read jefferson's comments, madison's comments on the subject it is clear what they meant...Jefferson clearly meant for there to be a "wall of seperation"

Quote: "they are living cells, not a life. the majority of the time, those cells fail to grow into a human"

You apparently don't know much about this subject. Matter of fact, I'm not going to reply on it anymore.

clearly you have a religious, not factual [[and actually not bible-based) stance on the subject

**Sstashmoo** · April-20-10, 11:01 AM

Quote: "actually, it says that there shall be no laws respecting religion."

Nice segway. The intent was for government not to interfere with people practicing religion, that is what was meant. Many people came to the "new world" fleeing religious persecution. An idiot can interpret from what was written, the Governments' hands off stance on religion at the time. You can twist it any way you wish.

Two definitions of Respect from the free dictionary
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.

Definition of interference from the same
a. The act or an instance of hindering, obstructing, or impeding.
b. Something that hinders, obstructs, or impedes.

Quote:" just playing the odds."

The odds are, the more people born, the higher probability for those of exceptional aptitude and genius to exist. No telling who has been denied that opportunity. My comment was not "mindless" at all, unless you mean to pay it no mind as it contradicts with your inaccuracies..

**rb336** · April-20-10, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "actually, it says that there shall be no laws respecting religion."

Nice segway. The intent was for government not to interfere with people practicing religion, that is what was meant.

no, that was the intent of the part that says "or prohibiting the free excercise thereof" part. guess what? free exercise thereof doesn't include publicly financed displays of your religion

The odds are, the more people born, the higher probability for those of exceptional aptitude and genius to exist. No telling who has been denied that opportunity. My comment was not "mindless" at all, unless you mean to pay it no mind as it contradicts with your inaccuracies..

and the odds still say there will be 100s if not 1000s of thugs born for every great person. hell, some of those great persons will also be thugs!

**rb336** · April-20-10, 11:21 AM

why not use the actual word, respecting, in the way it was used at the time, which was in consideration of. They chose that wording, rather than "with respect to" at the request of Baptist preachers who feared laws might be made preferential to another sect of christianity. read the letters

**Pam** · April-20-10, 11:24 AM

The thug or Einstein argument about abortion is pretty pointless, since there is no way of determining the personality of a fetus. A woman's right to control her body is the bottom line. [[Greater access to contraceptives would be the best way to lower the abortion rate but a lot of the fetus worshippers are against that too.)

**Sstashmoo** · April-20-10, 11:27 AM

Our Governments act of swearing in and taking solemn oath in the presence of the Holy Bible clearly indicates our governments reverence for the word of God. You can writhe about that if you choose, it was happening before you were born and it will be happening after you're gone. And there is nothing you can do about it, except post excerpts from the constitution and twist them around to fit your delusions.

**rb336** · April-20-10, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Our Governments act of swearing in and taking solemn oath in the presence of the Holy Bible clearly indicates our governments reverence for the word of God. You can writhe about that if you choose, it was happening before you were born and it will be happening after you're gone. And there is nothing you can do about it, except post excerpts from the constitution and twist them around to fit your delusions.

no one has to swear on a bible. it's a choice any witness can make, and any officeholder can make. in other words -- it ain't forced on anyone.

i don't twist meanings around. I throw it out there with the contemporaneous common usage of the terms. oh, btw:

Article VI Section iii:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.