What's Really Killing Detroit

[Zacha341]

OK, I hear that, it was not the main issue "before", but it is a primary problem now, IMO. And I live and work in the city right now, though I have also worked in the suburbs for over two decades... so I've seen other areas and experienced other amenities.

As a Detroiter striving to remain one must adapt daily to the crime level as it is now. Not fun...

Crime informs rather I will go in a given store or gas station or restuarant in the city. It impacts good and services, even down to banking with more and more banks leaving the city.

Bullshit. That's what people that don't live in the city want to believe and scapegoat behind. What killed Detroit primary was racism, urban sprawl, politics and crime. Crime wasn't the primary reason.

I live near Oakland Ca. and San Francisco; San Francisco crime is just as bad as Oakland, it's looking more like Detroit with fights and shootings on the transit buses. Guess what? No one is leaving or moving out.

[ejames01]

Crime is killing Detroit. It makes it very difficult for businesses to make a profit here.

[Hermod]

Crime is killing Detroit. It makes it very difficult for businesses to make a profit here.

Yes, there are 800,000 or so residents in the city. With that population base and the cheap land in the city, there should be commercial developments [[supermarkets, drug stores, dollar stores, big box stores, etc) popping up all over. Why aren't there any commercial investments taking place? Crime makes the cost of running a business so high, the game isn't worth the candle.

[Zacha341]

Yes, insurance rates for business in Detroit is sky high... why set up a business some have decided. Have say a bicycle or computer repair store in the wrong area - you're "toast" for break-ins. I try to do most of my commerce in the WSU/ Midtown, New and Medical center areas though I shop other places including the suburbs. With all shopping I'm careful....

Careful, not paranoid. I am wary of my surroundings when I go into a business or rather my car will be tampered with or stolen and I drive a old, but good looking car. Or rather I will be hassled going into said business, or gas station -- all of that is a factor when I decide to patronize a business. To not consider these things is to be naive prey and I rather not.

I've adapted in many ways such as getting fast food. I only go thru drive-thrus or if I am ordering a carry-out from a sit-down restaurant etc. I "call in" my order so I can walk in and out of the establishment fast. I see other women out and about on foot and wonder how they cope... purse snatching aside I'd not feel comfortable if I did not have a car.

Yes, there are 800,000 or so residents in the city. With that population base and the cheap land in the city, there should be commercial developments [[supermarkets, drug stores, dollar stores, big box stores, etc) popping up all over. Why aren't there any commercial investments taking place? Crime makes the cost of running a business so high, the game isn't worth the candle.

[iheartthed]

Yes, there are 800,000 or so residents in the city. With that population base and the cheap land in the city, there should be commercial developments [[supermarkets, drug stores, dollar stores, big box stores, etc) popping up all over.

I think the concept you are looking for is called redlining.

[Hermod]

I think the concept you are looking for is called redlining.

Red Lining is where you can not get financing for purchase or construction because the lending institution has determined that the area "red lined" poses undue risk to the lender because of economics or crime.

[iheartthed]

Red Lining is where you can not get financing for purchase or construction because the lending institution has determined that the area "red lined" poses undue risk to the lender because of economics or crime.

As defined by you.

[dove-7]

OK, I hear that, it was not the main issue "before", but it is a primary problem now, IMO. And I live and work in the city right now, though I have also worked in the suburbs for over two decades... so I've seen other areas and experienced other amenities.

As a Detroiter striving to remain one must adapt daily to the crime level as it is now. Not fun...

Crime informs rather I will go in a given store or gas station or restuarant in the city. It impacts good and services, even down to banking with more and more banks leaving the city.

No, the primary issue is the shitty politics there that prevents a city from thriving and surviving. Crime is in every major city. The crime that exist in Detroit is primarily related to poverty than your typical city crime.

The crime in Detroit isn't something that happened overnight, it's the former and present issues that lead to both crime and current state that Detroit is in.

Business left due to what I pointed out, leaving the eggshell to those that live there, but intentionally taking the yolk.

There is no reason that Detroit shouldn't be a thriving city. Using crime as an scapegoat to Detroit's current state is sad; San Francisco has some serious crime here, but it's the politics that keeps it alive.

The bottom line here is, the politics and certain people in suburbs don't want to connect Detroit with the suburbs like most major cities have. An intentional lack of transit prevents this too.

[LL Cool D]

No, the primary issue is the shitty politics there that prevents a city from thriving and surviving. Crime is in every major city. The crime that exist in Detroit is primarily related to poverty than your typical city crime.

... snip, snip, who gives a snip about SF, snip ...

The bottom line here is, the politics and certain people in suburbs don't want to connect Detroit with the suburbs like most major cities have. An intentional lack of transit prevents this too.

Crime is like rot, when the animal dies, he rots, but the rot didn't kill him. Lack of jobs killed him. Ever heard of cars? Get a job and drive to it. You're already connected to the burbs. They're called roads.

[dove-7]

Crime is like rot, when the animal dies, he rots, but the rot didn't kill him. Lack of jobs killed him. Ever heard of cars? Get a job and drive to it. You're already connected to the burbs. They're called roads.

Before you attack a point, you should read it. Knee jerk replies don't help you to see the point that went way over your head.

I mentioned San Francisco because I live here and it was a compare and contrast to make my point and backing it up.

We said the same thing, the only difference is, you're solely addressing the later. I addressed the former and the later. We call it cause and effects. Hence the reason that I also mention an intentional lack of transit that could help people get to from point A to point B which would be the jobs to the suburbs.

"Ever heard of cars and roads." Meh, not really. No shit, we have tons of them here. A long with cars, transit is part of the equation.

Go back and read my post[[s).

[Don K]

Okay, white flight is a good reason for Detroit's collapse, but why was it more pronounced here than in other places [[Philadelphia, for example)? Were the working and middle classes here more racist than in other cities? Doubtful, I'd say. About the same time as the white remnant in Detroit was electing Gribbs [['69), whites in Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo to two terms [['71 and '75). Suburbanization happened everywhere. The question is why more whites in places like Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago stayed put rather than jumping ship.

Now, perhaps some of the reason is that new jobs in the auto industry were located in the suburbs. For example, when Ford built Wayne Assembly and the former Michigan Truck, they went out Michigan Ave. to Wayne. Makes living in Wayne or Westland look pretty desirable, and at the time where else could Ford have assembled enough acreage adjacent to rail lines affordably? At the same time GM built the Tech Center in Warren. Again, I'll ask whether GM could have assembled the land for this complex within Detroit.

Another factor, in my opinion, is the addiction of the Gribbs and Young administrations to mega-projects [[e.g., Ren Cen, GM Poletown Assembly) at the expense of keeping all of Detroit a livable place that's good for businesses of all sizes.

Finally, the fact that Detroit was a one industry town in what has been for at least the last thrity years a declining industry gave us the present zero-sum situation in which a gain for the suburbs is necessarily a loss for Detroit, and vice versa.

[LL Cool D]

Go back and read my post[[s).

I did read them, at least within this thread [[with Ravine I print them out and stack them behind the shitter). Seems we differ only on how much hope we pin on public transit, but I've already made my point on that. Time to hit the hay.

[MvGuy]

I agree 110%!

IT was NOT crime, It is DECLINE..!! Crime follows... Crime is what happens when there is no work, no community No vision.... I left Detroit because of the nasty POLICE and I'm white...

[Bella]

IT was NOT crime, It is DECLINE..!! Crime follows... Crime is what happens when there is no work, no community No vision.... I left Detroit because of the nasty POLICE and I'm white...

It's spreading, too. I had to leave MI because of a home invasion in the suburb of Detroit.

[dove-7]

I did read them, at least within this thread [[with Ravine I print them out and stack them behind the shitter). Seems we differ only on how much hope we pin on public transit, but I've already made my point on that. Time to hit the hay.

"with Ravine I print them out and stack them behind the shitter"

Would that be right next to your Wonder Jelly?

Hope? Nada, just part of the facts. But if you read my point, transit wasn't the primary reason, it was after the after math to prevent another Detroit in the suburbs for those that moved away to get away from those that they never wanted around them.

[MvGuy]

Okay, white flight is a good reason for Detroit's collapse, but why was it more pronounced here than in other places [[Philadelphia, for example)? Were the working and middle classes here more racist than in other cities? Doubtful, I'd say. About the same time as the white remnant in Detroit was electing Gribbs [['69), whites in Philadelphia elected Frank Rizzo to two terms [['71 and '75). Suburbanization happened everywhere. The question is why more whites in places like Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago stayed put rather than jumping ship.

Now, perhaps some of the reason is that new jobs in the auto industry were located in the suburbs. For example, when Ford built Wayne Assembly and the former Michigan Truck, they went out Michigan Ave. to Wayne. Makes living in Wayne or Westland look pretty desirable, and at the time where else could Ford have assembled enough acreage adjacent to rail lines affordably? At the same time GM built the Tech Center in Warren. Again, I'll ask whether GM could have assembled the land for this complex within Detroit.

Another factor, in my opinion, is the addiction of the Gribbs and Young administrations to mega-projects [[e.g., Ren Cen, GM Poletown Assembly) at the expense of keeping all of Detroit a livable place that's good for businesses of all sizes.

Finally, the fact that Detroit was a one industry town in what has been for at least the last thrity years a declining industry gave us the present zero-sum situation in which a gain for the suburbs is necessarily a loss for Detroit, and vice versa.

Echos of Poletown????

One is not sure whether tragedy or justice has come to New London, Conn. The pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. has announced that it will close down the $300 million research and development facility it built on the outskirts of the town a decade ago.
Such a story would ordinarily be relegated to the back of the business pages, perhaps with somebody tracing the decision to the ongoing recession or, in Pfizer's case, to the fact that it recently concluded a $68-billion takeover of drug maker Wyeth. But the Pfizer presence in New London led to one of the more controversial Supreme Court decisions of recent decades.

In this Feb. 8, 2005, file photo, only a few structures remain of the old Fort Trumbull neighborhood in New London, Conn. Now that drug giant Pfizer Inc. has announced plans to pull out of a Connecticut city where it played a role in an epic eminent domain fight, residents are questioning why the battle was ever waged.
Associated Press

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As laid out in attorney Jeff Benedict's book, "Little Pink House," Pfizer, which had been lured to New London by tax breaks and other forms of corporate welfare, let city officials know that it wasn't crazy about being next door to "tenements," as one Pfizer executive called the adjacent Fort Trumbull neighborhood. So the city found a developer who promised to build a five-star hotel, a health spa, office buildings and upscale homes. The city then used the power of eminent domain to take the homes in Fort Trumbull.
One of the homeowners, Susette Kelo, fought the city, and the case went to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 2005 the high court ruled that the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which requires governments to pay fair compensation for property taken for "public use," allows property to be taken when the "public use" is an economic development plan that promises to increase tax revenue.

[Bearinabox]

I guess letting big business do whatever it wants at the expense of the community isn't the greatest economic development strategy. Who would have thought?

[LL Cool D]

"with Ravine I print them out and stack them behind the shitter"

Would that be right next to your Wonder Jelly?

Yup, every day it's a triple-play: 1) Take a healthy dump. 2) Get caught up on Ravine's latest posts, and 3) Take care of that dry, itchy chapped skin.

[Patrick]

What kis killing Detroit? Perhaps a lack of father figures? Maybe a lack of hope? Lack of innovation due to economic circumstances? Maybe the collpase of the family structure where the grandmother has to take over for an absent father?

[terryh]

What's killing Detroit?

Segregation, Charles Bowles, Albert Cobo, suburban sprawl, freeways, restictive covenants to keep blacks at their own neighborhoods, the 1967 riot, white flight, economic flight, Coleman A. young, city corruption, failed Detroit Public Schools, poor police force, street gang growth in the 70s, black growth to once white Detroit neighborhoods, Devil's Night, the crack epidemic, failed Downtown Detroit becoming a instant ghost town, and King Kwame's Manoogian Parties.

That's what killing Detroit.

You summed it up very well Danny.....all contribute and can be researched in depth to pick apart the complexities..

[English]

You summed it up very well Danny.....all contribute and can be researched in depth to pick apart the complexities..

I agree, terryh... it's everything Danny listed and more.

Detroit was truly a perfect storm. I have friends and family in New Orleans and the Mississippi Delta... We were our own Katrina.

[Ravine]

LL Cool D, would you care to explain how in the hell I got dragged into this discussion?

[Ravine]

Bumping, because I still would like to know how in the hell I got dragged into the discussion on a thread in which I had not even participated.

[Pam]

Bumping, because I still would like to know how in the hell I got dragged into the discussion on a thread in which I had not even participated.

You're a legend, dude.

[Detroiters123]

What's killing Detroit...hmmm...
Detroit has always been a segregated city...actually Michigan in itself is pretty segregated. I travel pretty regularly, and have not yet been anywhere as separated, culturally, as MI is. It stemmed after the riots, and not enough effort has been concentrated on getting people to work TOGETHER.

It all starts with leadership. You get a leader who knows how to excite people AND get things accomplished, you have a powerful mechanism...Detroit has not had one of these in very long time [[Prior to Dave Bing). I have faith in Mr. Bing. I think that he will get the job done. He's doing a wonderful job so far.

Stemming from this is another issue- PERCEPTION People and the media always concentrate on the bad stuff that happens here...but guess what, bad stuff happens everywhere. Not enough energy is concentrated on the good. I have not met a person that lives in my area of Detroit that does not love it, and I am sure that my community is not the only. There are tons of nice areas in this city...but, this is never publicized. The city is HUGE...of course it will have blight. But the potential behind the city as a whole is amazing. Downtown Detroit is really shaping up. I've lived in Detroit more than 20 years, and have never been a victim of burglary, vandalism, etc...not saying that it doesn't happen...but saying that it happens everywhere. People need to stop using this as an excuse and work to change it...not just move out.

Another issue- I attended high school in Detroit, graduated in 2000...and do you know, AT LEAST 80% of my classmates who went on to college and finished, now live in another city or state??? Not enough effort is being made to keep the successful people who can actually be an asset to the city, in the city. The city has invested a lot of money to educate people only for them to move out and become an asset somewhere else...does this make sense??? I work in the city, and most of the people I work with live in the suburbs. More of a vested interest is needed here, in Detroit. You get more people and businesses here that CARE, things will improve...and it is improving. A lot of development is taking place downtown...which is important. The downtown area of a city is what attracts people [[money).

Another issue- COST Tax & Insurance is OUTRAGEOUS. I know a lot of people who would love to live in the city, but just cannot afford to.

OK, these are just a few issues. I can go on and on. But I believe that they will addressed soon...give it a few years.