It's Back! I-94 rebuild in Detroit returns

**Brian1979** · March-12-11, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Proslack

Really? Why is that?

I'd vote for the same thing to be done between Third and Beaubein on the Fisher. It breaks up the urban landscape to have a freeway running through the center of it and connecting New Center to downtown would be a good thing.

**313WX** · March-12-11, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

I'd vote for the same thing to be done between Third and Beaubein on the Fisher. It breaks up the urban landscape to have a freeway running through the center of it and connecting New Center to downtown would be a good thing.

I don't know why people keep stating this. Chicago has damn near the same freeway infrastructure in its CBD that Detroit does and majority of its urban fabric is still firmly in tact.

It was the rampant abandonment of our CBD and the obsessive "tear that schitt down!!!" mindset that destroyed the urban frabric, not the freeways. The area within a mile north-south of I-75 was very dense for well over a decade after the Fisher was constructed.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-12-11, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I don't know why people keep stating this. Chicago has damn near the same freeway infrastructure in its CBD that Detroit does and majority of its urban fabric is still firmly in tact.

It was the rampant abandonment of our CBD and the obsessive "tear that schitt down!!!" mindset that destroyed the urban frabric, not the freeways. The area within a mile north-south of I-75 was very dense for well over a decade after the Fisher was constructed.

In Detroit, though, a system of easy motoring required acres and acres of parking lots. Chicago maintained its extensive transit network, thus permitting the density to be maintained.

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I don't know why people keep stating this. Chicago has damn near the same freeway infrastructure in its CBD that Detroit does and majority of its urban fabric is still firmly in tact.

It was the rampant abandonment of our CBD and the obsessive "tear that schitt down!!!" mindset that destroyed the urban frabric, not the freeways. The area within a mile north-south of I-75 was very dense for well over a decade after the Fisher was constructed.

Chicago has a much bigger downtown area in size than Detroit does. Also Chicago built their freeway system a little better than Detroit did, the only freeways you have in Chicago that come near downtown are the Kennedy/Dan Ryan, Eisenhower and to a lesser extent the Stevenson which comes in south of the downtown area and the Dan Ryan/Kennedy Expressway runs to the west of downtown. In Detroit you have three freeways that pretty much make the downtown area isolated from the rest of the city, that isn't the case in Chicago. All I'm saying is that the Fisher should be tunneled from Beaubein to Third and the Ford from the Chrysler to the Lodge. it's not that long of a stretch and would better connect the downtown area to midtown and New Center.

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 09:16 AM

The Ford Freeway was only built to handle so much traffic. It is handling almost double the capacity that the freeway was built to handle. Another lane in each direction will increase the capacity to somewheres near the traffic volumes that travel on that stretch of freeway. Honestly an eight lane freeway is still probably too little, this stretch of freeway needs to be at least 10 lanes wide with five lanes in each direction. How can anyone possibly argue that a six lane freeway running through a metro area of close to 5 million people is wide enough to handle the traffic flow?

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

In Detroit, though, a system of easy motoring required acres and acres of parking lots. Chicago maintained its extensive transit network, thus permitting the density to be maintained.

That's a good point. As we all know Detroit has no mass transit what so ever [[the people mover don't count it doesn't take you anywhere) so the traffic volumes on the freeways are going to be much worse. Chicago did a really good job with their mass transit and freeways, I know of three el lines that run in the medians of expressways there, theres one on the Dan Ryan, one on the Kennedy and one on the Eisenhower and it works pretty good.

Augustiner · March-13-11, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

How can anyone possibly argue that a six lane freeway running through a metro area of close to 5 million people is wide enough to handle the traffic flow?

It depends why you think Midtown Detroit exists. If you think it exists to move cars from one end of it to the other as quickly and efficiently as possible, then it's pretty hard to argue that. But if you think it exists to be a city neighborhood where people live, then traffic flow should be a secondary concern. I don't think it's worth knocking a bunch of people's houses down so that traffic can flow through there better; as far as I'm concerned, the commuters can either allow the extra five minutes to get through the congested part, or hop off the expressway and find an alternate route.

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Augustiner

It depends why you think Midtown Detroit exists. If you think it exists to move cars from one end of it to the other as quickly and efficiently as possible, then it's pretty hard to argue that. But if you think it exists to be a city neighborhood where people live, then traffic flow should be a secondary concern. I don't think it's worth knocking a bunch of people's houses down so that traffic can flow through there better; as far as I'm concerned, the commuters can either allow the extra five minutes to get through the congested part, or hop off the expressway and find an alternate route.

This would effect more than just midtown, it's proposed to run from the Jeffries to Connor that is about a seven mile stretch, the proposal is to level the hills that currently come down from the service drive to the freeway itself and build a retaining wall there in it's place adding one more lane in each direction. I can't think at the present moment of the lane configuration's on the service drives but would it really be knocking down homes if this was to happen? I already explained how the two lanes of freeway would be added. And hopping off the expressway and finding an alternate route is a lot of times easier said than done, if they would retime the lights along the major arteries like Woodward, Grand River, Gratiot, Michigan and Jefferson then the traffic flow would be allowed to move and those alternate routes would be easier to use, also you have travelers who aren't familiar with Detroit and those alternate routes aren't really known to out of towners.

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 12:45 PM

It's not only in Detroit that I-94 needs to be widened. Here is the lane configuration for I-94 in the State of Michigan:

Lane configurations

Between Interstate 196 and Indiana state line [[3 lanes on each side — a 4th lane was added westbound in 2006 between Exit 30 and Exit 29
Between just west of Exit 74 [[US 131) and Exit 34 [[Interstate 196) [[2 lanes on each side)
Between Exit 76 and just west of Exit 74 [[US-131)[[will extend to exit 78 when project is completed in 2011) [[3 lanes on each side)
Between just west of Exit 167 [[Baker Rd.) and Exit 76 [[2 lanes on each side)
Between Exit 171 [[M-14) and just west of Exit 167 [[Baker Rd.) [[3 lanes on each side)
Between Exit 180 [[US 23) and Exit 171 [[M-14) [[2 lanes on each side)
Between Exit 198 [[Detroit Metropolitan Airport) and Exit 180 [[US-23) [[3 lanes on each side)
For Exits 199 [[Detroit Metropolitan Airport/Middle Belt Road) and 198 [[Merriman Road) [[2 Local + 3 Express Lanes each side)
Between Exit 243 [[23 Mile Rd.) and Exit 198 [[3-4 lanes on each side)
Between Blue Water Bridge and Exit 243 [[23 Mile Rd.) in Chesterfield Township, MI [[2 lanes on each side)

I would say the part that runs between M-14 and US 23 on the southside of Ann Arbor is in major need of upgrading. Where is it ever 4 lanes between 23 Mile and exit 198 though? This would include the city of Detroit.

**One Shot** · March-13-11, 01:22 PM

Big name contractors will be pushing hard for this project. Greased pockets and fudged numbers help too. Oh and all the local people that will be put to work building.
And when it's done the people that are left here will have a pretty road to cruise on, still have little money in their pockets and the same fundamental problems that plague the area. But at least the big guys scored those bids!

**Gistok** · March-13-11, 02:01 PM

The problem with adding lanes to I-94 by putting up a cement wall barrier [[similar to the Lodge/US10) north of McNichiols, is that trucks carrying hazzardous/explosive materials will NOT be allowed to use the freeway [[just like those US10 trucks have to exit at the Wyoming exit). This causes logistical problems for these vehicles. On the otherhand, it may be the reason why part of the I-94 expansion plan includes service drives along the entire expansion route.

**Hermod** · March-13-11, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Augustiner

It depends why you think Midtown Detroit exists. If you think it exists to move cars from one end of it to the other as quickly and efficiently as possible, then it's pretty hard to argue that. But if you think it exists to be a city neighborhood where people live, then traffic flow should be a secondary concern. I don't think it's worth knocking a bunch of people's houses down so that traffic can flow through there better; as far as I'm concerned, the commuters can either allow the extra five minutes to get through the congested part, or hop off the expressway and find an alternate route.

As it developed, Detroit has always had crosstown traffic problems. Even the crosstown streetcar system had to run through zig-zag routes. The Davison and the Ford expressways were built solely to relieve the crosstown congestion. Everything in Detroit doesn't flow on the radial streets.

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 04:10 PM

McNichols and US 10? To any Detroiter I've ever talked to it's Six Mile and the Lodge and US 10 hasn't come anywheres near Detroit in almost 30 years.

But anyways, like Hermod said the Ford which was built before the Interstate Highway System was built to relieve crosstown traffic congestion as was the Davison. The Davison was rebuilt in the mid-90's, the Ford Freeway was built in the 1940's and 1950's and it shows in many areas, it's an outdated freeway and needs to be upgraded. I really can't believe anyone would be against this.

**Gistok** · March-13-11, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

McNichols and US 10? To any Detroiter I've ever talked to it's Six Mile and the Lodge and US 10 hasn't come anywheres near Detroit in almost 30 years.

But anyways, like Hermod said the Ford which was built before the Interstate Highway System was built to relieve crosstown traffic congestion as was the Davison. The Davison was rebuilt in the mid-90's, the Ford Freeway was built in the 1940's and 1950's and it shows in many areas, it's an outdated freeway and needs to be upgraded. I really can't believe anyone would be against this.

Maybe after you've posted here a while, you'll get used to the fact that not everyone uses the same nomenclature... and not everyone who posts is actually from Detroit.....

**Hermod** · March-13-11, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

McNichols and US 10? To any Detroiter I've ever talked to it's Six Mile and the Lodge and US 10 hasn't come anywheres near Detroit in almost 30 years.

Woodward was US10 back in the day. Unlike 7 Mile and 8 Mile, McNichols and Six-Mile were pretty much interchangeable. It was called both back in the day.

**Gistok** · March-13-11, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Woodward was US10 back in the day. Unlike 7 Mile and 8 Mile, McNichols and Six-Mile were pretty much interchangeable. It was called both back in the day.

That was a long time ago... back when Gratiot was US25 and Grand River US16.... which begs the question... isn't Telegraph still US24?

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 10:47 PM

Yes the original routing of US 10 was on Woodward but in the 1970's the US 10 routing was shifted to the Lodge and then truncated to Bay City in 1987.

McNichols is a newer name for Six Mile, I'm not saying everyone in here is from Detroit, I don't live in Detroit or in the metro area I'm about 100 miles from Detroit and I call it Six Mile. Do you call 8 Mile Baseline?

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

That was a long time ago... back when Gratiot was US25 and Grand River US16.... which begs the question... isn't Telegraph still US24?

Yeah Telegraph is still US 24 but that takes a strange routing, usually even numbered highways are suppose to run east and west so it seems strange that it takes on a north-south route in Michigan.

**Gistok** · March-13-11, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

Yes the original routing of US 10 was on Woodward but in the 1970's the US 10 routing was shifted to the Lodge and then truncated to Bay City in 1987.

McNichols is a newer name for Six Mile, I'm not saying everyone in here is from Detroit, I don't live in Detroit or in the metro area I'm about 100 miles from Detroit and I call it Six Mile. Do you call 8 Mile Baseline?

8 Mile? Baseline? Oh... you mean M102..... LOL...

No generally I use what's on the signage... some people call Fenkell Ave... 5 Mile... but that must be a west side thing....

I grew up on the far east side where Moross and Vernier were often called by 7 or 8 Mile... the Moross/Mack shopping center was called 7/Mack for many decades [[what replaced it is now Pointe Plaza).

Generally people on this forum use some street names interchangeably... I-94 instead of Ford Fwy seems to be more common... although in order to differentiate between the 2 freeways that make up I-75... follks will still call it the Chrysler or the Fisher [[except when you're talking I-375).

What I'd like to know is why that short strip of the Fisher between the Chrysler and Gratiot is unnumbered?

Some signage however gets ignored altogether... I'll NEVER call Van Dyke "Earle Memorial Hwy"... although the freeway portion of it north of 18 Mile Rd. is M-53 to differentiate it from Van Dyke proper [[also M-53 south of there).

In Macomb County I-94 is "James O'Hara Freeway"... although no one living in the county ever calls it that... just like no one in western Wayne County calls I-94 "Detroit Industrial Freeway".

The stretch of the Lodge in Oakland County IS called Northwestern Hwy. however... and if I'm not mistaken the service drive of the Lodge north of Wyoming is called "James Couzens".

And then there's the Metro Parkway... Big Beaver... Quarton.. names for 16 Mile....

Except when it's some obscure name [[like James O'Hara), people on this forum generally go with whatever name folks use... as long as it's recognized.

.... and some thing seem to go full circle... Campus Martius was called that for nearly 160 years... only to become Kennedy Square [[the western part anyway)... and only since the Detroit Tricentennial has the name Campus Martius been brought back after a hiatus of nearly 40 years with the installation of the "roundabout" park.

**Brian1979** · March-14-11, 12:09 AM

Yeah M-102 LOL. I understand that people call it another name like Six Mile/McNichols and 5 Mile/Fenkell. I guess I just am use to calling it Six Mile and Five Mile, why not call Schoolcraft Four Mile or Plymouth Three Mile? I wonder why the mile roads stop at 5 Mile.

Well I would never call Moross 7 Mile or Vernier 8 Mile because I don't think those were extensions of the mile roads, is Seymour a part of Six Mile? It changes from McNichols to Seymour at Gratiot. To me 7 ends at Kelly and 8 ends at continues past where it changes into Vernier as a separate street on the county line like it does all the way across Detroit, now I know M-102 goes all the way to I-94 on Vernier after the split from 8 Mile in front of Eastland.

I've always called the freeways by their names instead of the numbers unless it's like I-275 which doesn't have a number. I think I might be able to answer your question about the Fisher between the Chrysler and Gratiot, I'm sure it doesn't have a number because it's part of an exit off of I-75. That whole interchange is screwed up, where else in America do you see a through interstate highway go through an exit ramp to stay on route? And then you have to slow down to 25 mph to go through the stupid exit ramp. If your coming SB doesn't the Gratiot exit merge with the expressway that runs to Gratiot?

I don't think we've ever really been introduced to those names, I only know of I-94 as the Ford and the Detroit Industral Expressway. You are right about the Lodge, that was an odd one, it was the Lodge from Cobo to Wyoming and then the Couzens from Wyoming to 8 Mile and then Northwestern to Orchard Lake. I never understood why the service drive retained the Couzens name.

LOL 16 Mile does have a lot of names I know. I guess it just depends on how much you know about the street system of Detroit.

**Gistok** · March-14-11, 01:10 AM

Brian... there's an interesting thread in the DYES Forum archives somewhere that talks about the history of "Baseline".... but navigating the archives is not always easy...

**Detroitnerd** · March-14-11, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Brian1979

McNichols and US 10? To any Detroiter I've ever talked to it's Six Mile and the Lodge and US 10 hasn't come anywheres near Detroit in almost 30 years.

But anyways, like Hermod said the Ford which was built before the Interstate Highway System was built to relieve crosstown traffic congestion as was the Davison. The Davison was rebuilt in the mid-90's, the Ford Freeway was built in the 1940's and 1950's and it shows in many areas, it's an outdated freeway and needs to be upgraded. I really can't believe anyone would be against this.

Yes, many of us are against this.

**iheartthed** · March-14-11, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I don't know why people keep stating this. Chicago has damn near the same freeway infrastructure in its CBD that Detroit does and majority of its urban fabric is still firmly in tact.

It was the rampant abandonment of our CBD and the obsessive "tear that schitt down!!!" mindset that destroyed the urban frabric, not the freeways. The area within a mile north-south of I-75 was very dense for well over a decade after the Fisher was constructed.

Huh? I-90/94 is the only freeway that comes close to the Chicago loop. Downtown Detroit is boxed in by 3 different freeways: the Lodge, Fisher, and 375.

**Brian1979** · March-14-11, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Brian... there's an interesting thread in the DYES Forum archives somewhere that talks about the history of "Baseline".... but navigating the archives is not always easy...

Yes I know about the Michigan Baseline and the Michigan Meridian. I know the reason it's called Baseline Road is because of the Public Land Survey System, it sits on the second and third tier counties in the state, just like Meridian does running north and south.

**Brian1979** · March-14-11, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yes, many of us are against this.

Against what? To anyone familiar with the city of Detroit you'd know that the freeway system historically is known by name rather than route number. I do not hear too many people calling the Lodge M-10, the Southfield M-39, the Davison M-8, the Ford I-94, the Chrysler and Fisher I-75 and the Ruether I-696. I've been in Detroit and the area for the last 30 years and rarely does anyone refer to the freeway by number. Even on the traffic reports they call them by the freeway name, you'll hear the Lodge instead of M-10.