Map of first 500 Demos

**DetroitPlanner** · April-02-10, 12:42 PM

I am pretty sure I posted this several months back but here it is again.

It takes about an hour, and don't forget to look at the slides available as pps or pdf.

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-02-10, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Totally a neighborhood designed and executed to be a throw-away. This makes quite a contrast to its neighbor to the East in Rosedale.

Yes, very sad. Not only that, but the presenters had some very good ideas for how to turn that neighborhood around. I know those ideas will never come to fruition. That's the more depressing part of the presentation. And they were very practical ideas at that.

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-02-10, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by cman710

The Google Street view does not give a great view of her house, but here it is.

When you look at the number of areas in Detroit that have been decimated over the last five years alone, one can't convince me that Detroit's current population is anywhere near 900k.

**detroitsgwenivere** · April-02-10, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by rid0617

It is literally amazing to see that many houses vacant on Robinwood. Such a waste of what looked like a nice neighborhood

I used to stay about a mile up the street from "The Woods" [[that's what the locals call those blocks, "Pothole Woods," "Scrapper Woods," "Dope Woods," "Elm Streets" to name a few). I've spent the last year collecting demographic info, pictures, and interviews about that neighborhood to get to the bottom of how and why that area took such a sharp dive so fast. It's been hard because the friends I had living there all moved away and Im still tracking them down.

What I know is that only 3 years ago, people lived on those streets, enough that when I drove down them I had to wait for cars to move out of the way so I could get by. Im not going to act like the area wasn't jacked up already, lots of trappers and young, unwed families living there. Empty apartments and homes had already blighted the scene but not any worse than your typical struggling neighborhood in Detroit. But most of those homes had an owner and/or renter in them, with parties and friends and children running about in the summer.

In less than two years, almost 4 entire blocks from John R to Charleston are completely decimated. The blocks between Charleston to Woodward are close behind, and bordering Grixdale has yards lit up like Fort Knox. The wierd part is that when you look across Woodward you see the golf course and Palmer Woods, like a bad contrast photo.

The conclusion Ive derived from the info Ive collected is that the foreclosure crisis was the push that drove the final stake in the coffin. I'm told that people had been renting from landlords who owned several houses around the Woods and Detroit, and after taking out equity on the properties, lost them when the adjustable rates went up. The owners that were in foreclosure from the local area were taken to court immediately, and others just walked away entirely, not even bothering to inform the tenants that the home was in foreclosure. Some of the landlords were realestate companies that weren't even located in this country, let alone the state. I'm also told that several of them are owned by the same banks who made sure that after the homes were vacated, were never put back on the market. But they made sure to put insurance on those homes before they were left wide open to be stripped and burned down. Some people who lived there accuse the banks of attempting to set up a block busting, because several of the homes had been redone with windows and siding, etc. and the rents they were asking for were astronomical compared to what was being paid before. When they couldn't get any buyers or renters for over a year, that's when the homes were all suddenly left open. Crazy stuff, I know, but not unheard of.

The neighbors are all pissed off because guys drive around the area in pickup trucks stripping all the houses down to nothing IN BROAD DAYLIGHT with no interferance from authorities. They have also been threatened by the vandals with guns and violence when they've tried to intervene. So they move away, and their house then bites the dust.

The blocks on the other side of John R had already been reduced to rubble long ago. I know people who live over there, and are the only three houses for several blocks [[they found a burning body on their street corner 2 years ago). Most of that area's land is contaminated by toxic waste from Canflow. That business is responsible for driving the majority of residents away from south of 7 mile because of the putrid smells and the black shit that would come up from the houses drains, getting people horribly sick. They were allowed to pump over 30,000 gallons of waste from Canada into the sewer system EVERYDAY for several years. Then some developer built new homes that dot the area, after aquiring the land for almost nothing, and never bothered to tell the buyers, who are now out several thousands in home values and have since abandonded some of the homes because of the health factor.

I'm still researching this stuff, and when I get to the bottom of all this, I'll be sure to let you guys know what I find.

**Danny** · April-02-10, 02:43 PM

YAY! KING BING doing his thing.

What a first kick-off to reinvent Detroit. That's something that KING KWAME should have done a long time ago. That will keep in him in the polls for 2013 election.

**Bella** · April-02-10, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I am pretty sure I posted this several months back but here it is again.

It takes about an hour, and don't forget to look at the slides available as pps or pdf.

Thank you so very much! I have been coming to this site for a while, but felt the need to register yesterday because of this thread.
I have been a member of another forum for three years, and have created a thread there dedicated to Detroit. It has a variety of info in it, and I like coming here for references.
I am going to listen to this tonight before I go to bed.
Thank you again!

**mauser** · April-02-10, 04:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD8lUeV2J10

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-02-10, 04:22 PM

detroitsgwenivere, thank you for your post. It was very insightful but depressing. My question is, why is it that Detroit is so susceptible to this type of thing? Why is it that other communities have been able to avoid abuses by landlords, banks, and industrial companies? I don't doubt anything you've posted, but Detroit seems to be especially hard hit by these issues whereas other areas seem to either be immune or rebound better.

Thanks.

**Bella** · April-02-10, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by mauser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD8lUeV2J10

This makes me so angry, and so sad at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nga2_XK3kmE

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-02-10, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

detroitsgwenivere, thank you for your post. It was very insightful but depressing. My question is, why is it that Detroit is so susceptible to this type of thing? Why is it that other communities have been able to avoid abuses by landlords, banks, and industrial companies? I don't doubt anything you've posted, but Detroit seems to be especially hard hit by these issues whereas other areas seem to either be immune or rebound better.

Thanks.

Actually, detroitsgwenivere, I withdraw my questions. I thought about it and it's probably due to Detroit's poor governance. I doubt houses could be stripped in broad daylight in most communities without police interference. Also, I think most communities would have forced landlords to follow code and pay property taxes. Also, the lack of focus on jobs from our political leadership probably also factored into the decline of many of Detroit's neighborhoods. It's a shame. In a few years Detroit will just be downtown surrounded by wilderness with a few neighborhoods on the outskirts.

Bearinabox · April-02-10, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

Actually, detroitsgwenivere, I withdraw my questions. I thought about it and it's probably due to Detroit's poor governance. I doubt houses could be stripped in broad daylight in most communities without police interference. Also, I think most communities would have forced landlords to follow code and pay property taxes. Also, the lack of focus on jobs from our political leadership probably also factored into the decline of many of Detroit's neighborhoods. It's a shame. In a few years Detroit will just be downtown surrounded by wilderness with a few neighborhoods on the outskirts.

In most communities, houses have value. This gives landlords an incentive to keep them from being stripped, or sell them to someone who will.

**Cooper** · April-02-10, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by cman710

This page has a link to an audio podcast regarding Brightmoor, though I am not 100% sure that is what DetroitPlanner was referring to.

WDET recently did a story on the plans to "rightsize" Brightmoor:

http://www.wdetfm.org/article/bright...hrinking-plans

You can read the actual Brightmoor Neighborhood Plan here:

http://www.aabds.com/Dreamweaver%20-%20Brightmoor%20Stuff/BrightmoorLandUse1/Brightmoor%20Neighborhood%20Plan.pdf

Just to warn you, the pdf file is quite large. But it's the only concrete plan I've seen for rightsizing a neighborhood, so it's worth reading.

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-02-10, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

In most communities, houses have value. This gives landlords an incentive to keep them from being stripped, or sell them to someone who will.

Why didn't the houses have value here?

Bearinabox · April-02-10, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

Why didn't the houses have value here?

Supply exceeds demand. Or are you asking why supply exceeds demand?

**Crumbled_pavement** · April-02-10, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

Supply exceeds demand. Or are you asking why supply exceeds demand?

Yes. Why does supply exceed demand?

Bearinabox · April-02-10, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

Yes. Why does supply exceed demand?

Well, that's the essential Detroit question, isn't it? There's no easy answer. Deindustrialization is part of it. Blockbusting and discriminatory real estate practices are another part. Part of it is the way our culture [[in America generally, and in SE Michigan particularly) views cities. Whole books have been written on each of those factors individually, and there are plenty I'm leaving out.

**cman710** · April-02-10, 07:03 PM

detroitsgewnivere, I would be interested to discuss this topic with you. It is something I am also interested in researching, and I would love to give you some help and help build on whatever you have collected.

**LeannaM** · April-02-10, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

Actually, detroitsgwenivere, I withdraw my questions. I thought about it and it's probably due to Detroit's poor governance. I doubt houses could be stripped in broad daylight in most communities without police interference. Also, I think most communities would have forced landlords to follow code and pay property taxes. Also, the lack of focus on jobs from our political leadership probably also factored into the decline of many of Detroit's neighborhoods. It's a shame. In a few years Detroit will just be downtown surrounded by wilderness with a few neighborhoods on the outskirts.

St. Louis has issues with scrapping on the north side of town. There is a plan to do some demolitions and infill in the north side of the town. The guy who wants to do it has recently bought a lot of properties on the north side. But people generally don't trust him well because he has held some of those properties for 5 years and he has not done much of anything to improve them. Yet the city seems to look the other way in regards to him. Now he has a billion-dollar plan to build new residential areas there, but the program has a lot of big tax credits, from my experience. Some of the residents are afraid of this man's plans. They have had a few neighborhood meetings about it. I'm not sure what to think about it. I can certainly see why people don't trust him, but maybe he can redeem himself.

The main reason families stay out of St. Louis in general is because city schools are awful. And St. Louis City is not part of St. Louis county, so the city doesn't get those tax dollars [[the city has a stable population of about 365k and the county is at about a million). The north side is pretty dangerous in areas, but the South Side is overall very safe, and it's kind of a hip place to be for younger people. The Central West End is also a popular area with college students [[Washington University and St. Louis University are near there). A few of the Blues players live in the CWE. Downtown had something like 50 empty buildings around 1999, but most have been rehabbed. I think about a dozen are still empty, the Arcade and Chemical Building [[Alexa) being two of the more prominent empty buildings. However, St. Louis did not have as many skyscrapers as Detroit in the first place, and none of St. Louis Downtown buildings are over 600 feet. So the empty buildings may not be as noticeable.

Other cities have bad areas, but I'm not sure any other city has the extent of decay that I have seen in Detroit. However, cities like St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland are smaller, so there are fewer houses to demolish. St. Louis city is 66 square miles. Cleveland city is 82 sq. mi. . Pittsburgh city is 58 sq. mi.

I couldn't say whether or not a city bounces back is definitely based on the attitudes of citizens. I've never been to Detroit, so I'm not sure what the attitudes are there. I know St. Louis had a resurgence of preservationist attitude in the 1990s. But you will still find plenty of residents who don't really see value in preservation.

The city owns Lambert Airport, in North St. Louis County [[an okay area, has good and bad cities). The city is currently negotiating with China to have cargo and eventually passengers flying between St. Louis and China. It looks as if that deal will happen, so that should bring more investment into the area.

I can understand why many Detroit residents don't see as much value in preservation considering the current economic climate. That may be the main reason people aren't usually all that interested in preservation. People in general look out for number one, and they are interested in what they can do with the resources and money they have.

**detroitsgwenivere** · April-07-10, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by cman710

detroitsgewnivere, I would be interested to discuss this topic with you. It is something I am also interested in researching, and I would love to give you some help and help build on whatever you have collected.

Sorry I took so long. Didn't think anyone was paying attention to my blabbering.

I appreciate your interest in helping with this. Collecting the info I need is hard because the neighborhood is REALLY bad, and people get frightened when I approach them [[Understandably, I look like the FBI pulling up in a Cadillac). Also, banks don't like to return my phone calls.

This is sort of a long term project I'm putting together, like telling a story from beginning to end, so I'll be hanging around up there through the tear down and rebuild, if there ever is one. Now that the days will be longer, I'm hoping to get more accomplished, because walking around there after dark is not an option, and finding guys with balls to walk around with me during the day is proving more difficult than I expected.

If you or anyone else knows of any sites that could explain different sorts of home buying, morgage, and foreclosure practices to me in dummy terms, it would be greatly appreciated. I have never owned my own home, so this is my weak link. And when I can plan some time to go over this stuff with you cman[[I'm super busy these days), I'll message you and make some plans. Thanks again.

**Gistok** · April-08-10, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

Actually, detroitsgwenivere, I withdraw my questions. I thought about it and it's probably due to Detroit's poor governance. I doubt houses could be stripped in broad daylight in most communities without police interference. Also, I think most communities would have forced landlords to follow code and pay property taxes. Also, the lack of focus on jobs from our political leadership probably also factored into the decline of many of Detroit's neighborhoods. It's a shame. In a few years Detroit will just be downtown surrounded by wilderness with a few neighborhoods on the outskirts.

C_p, you're absolutely right.... in the burbs police response time is the key to keeping homes from being hit big time by scrappers.

My niece bought a foreclosed house in Fraser [[at half its' former value) that had the outside central air unit stolen... but in most burbs response time is fast enough to be a deterrent for blatant scrapping.

But in Detroit the response time is such that [[with a manpower shortage)... folks probably quit calling the police when there wasn't much response from them... and the scrappers know that.

**kathy2trips** · April-08-10, 02:34 AM

I Googled a few addresses myself, specifically in the far NE [[as that's my area) and I saw several properties that could be re-used, i.e. nothing burnt, falling down, rotted, etc. The southern migration theory doesn't really hold water in the NE. Check out 8938 Goethe or 3911 Beaconsfield. I'm just a Hamtramck bricklayer's daughter, but I've seen plenty of hopeless cases. Am I missing something, criteria-wise?

You have to be made of stone not to be moved by that tour of Robinwood St.

And what's the solution to a police force spread out too thin? Perhaps strong autonomous precincts with the uninhabited areas left for the Wayne County Sheriff Dept? After all, that's who was responsible for the outlying areas before they were built up. And some really fast cars.

**kathy2trips** · April-08-10, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by cman710

I agree regarding the State Fair area. There is a Street View now for West Robinwood, east of Woodward. Follow this street view two blocks and you can see that nearly every house will need to be demolished. The whole situation is a great shame.

An unusual little house [[perhaps built much later than the rest of the street) on W. Goldengate:

Attachment 5688

Yet, one block away on Hildale:
Attachment 5689

That, I don't understand at all...how one block can be so different than the next.