Harsh welcome at Detroit border

LodgeDodger · March-30-10, 08:11 AM

The poor guy was just doing his job. This higher-level "official" then comes along and pulls rank. Why the fuck didn't he just let the kid in the booth do his job instead of getting pissy with him?

The folks on this board seem to be taking questioning of the border patrol personally. If they let someone through who has criminal intent, they have a lot of explaining to do. Just suck it up and shut up about it, or stay home.

**Lowell** · March-30-10, 08:57 AM

Stanstead / Derby is an interesting situation Canuck, symptomatic of the ridiculous, wasteful and ineffective closing of a border between friends and allies in war. During the 2008 elections, CBC National held an insightful townhall meeting in the library with Peter Mansbridge with citizens of both countries. That area is another wilderness where border crossing is practically unstoppable.

The border-straddling library is the building with the spire on the right.
Attachment 5644

**Lowell** · March-30-10, 09:11 AM

Maybe this will explain our ridiculous and misguided border 'security'.

Imagine that you arrived at the airport for a flight and you and everybody on your flight simply walked to your gate and boarded your plane with no security check, no one paying any attention.

However, when you arrived at your destination, you were required to put you laptop in a tray along with your shoes, belt, cell phone, et. al. the walked through a metal scanner and maybe sent into the big x-ray bomb scanner and required to show your passport.

Would that make you feel secure?

LodgeDodger · March-30-10, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Maybe this will explain our ridiculous and misguided border 'security'.

Imagine that you arrived at the airport for a flight and simply walked to your gate and boarded your plane with no security check, no one paying any attention.

However, when you arrived at your destination, you were required to put you laptop in a tray along with your shoes, belt, cell phone, et. al. the walked through a metal scanner and maybe sent into the big x-ray bomb scanner and required to show your passport.

Would that make you feel secure?

Oddly enough, that very thing happened to me. It was on a flight from Paris to Frankfurt. Leaving Paris was a piece of cake. Upon arrival in Frankfurt, passengers were moved to a line and run through airport security again.

Content Warning: If you don't wish to read about lodgedodger's choice of undergarments, stop reading.

I walked through the scanners at DeGaulle without a problem. No beeps, no second looks, nada. Passing through the scanner at Frankfort, I set off the machines. I was pulled aside and given the *special treatment*. I'd forgotten I was wearing a metal underwire bra.

So, Lowell, to answer your question, I felt secure for the folks who were to board the plane with me leaving Frankfort. DeGaulle airport security is a joke.

I would also feel secure knowing the border guards were strict with those folks coming into the country. This is America, for goodness' sake. All sorts of freaks are trying to enter--for reasons good and bad.

My feeling is, there are so many other things about which I can get my undies bunched. This isn't something I can control.

**sirrealone** · March-30-10, 10:10 AM

Lowell, that's not an apples to apples analogy. The difference is that when you get screened at the airport, from then on you are [[in theory) in a controlled environment. You can't go to the newsstand and buy some explosives. You're checked coming back in at the border because, unless a border guard were to get in the car with you when you first went into Canada and stick around to make sure they know what you're up to, there's no guarantees that you haven't done something involving drugs, weapons or other security threats.

**Bobl** · March-30-10, 12:31 PM

I'm with Lowell: "Mr. Obama, Mr. Harper, tear down that wall!"

Ravine · March-30-10, 05:09 PM

It's not a wall, it's a goddam international border crossing. If it was anything like the Berlin Wall, your ass would be on one side, or the other, and staying there. Enough with the over-wrought hysteria.

While I completely understand the wish to be able to cross that border without undue harassment or uncivil behavior, this is the "Post-9/11" North America [[whether we like it, or not,) and we will not be returning to cheerier, more nonchalant times. Anyone yearning for the days of a sleepy-eyed guard leaning out his window to ask a few perfunctory questions before waving you on through should throw away their 8-track players, too.

**EastsideAl** · March-30-10, 05:26 PM

Yes, but I could now not only drive from one side of Berlin to another without going through a checkpoint, I could go all the way from there to Lisbon without seeing a customs check. And yet I can't now go to the city I can see out my window, a city we've been a peace with for nearly 200 years, a city that both of my grandmothers were born in and I have many relatives in, a city I've been to over a thousand times in my life, without the strong possibility that I'll be treated like a potential criminal upon my return. It really doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense, and yet again has this area moving in the opposite direction of much of the rest of the world.

LodgeDodger · March-30-10, 05:37 PM

Berlin was reunited some time ago. They are under the same system of government. Canada is ANOTHER COUNTRY. Yes, Canadians are loveable, neighborly folk. I like 'em. Problem is, not all folks in the world wish to be our friends. They would like to hurt us. The sooner some of us realize that, the easier it will be to understand and tolerate the border crossing.

I wish many of you would have had the opportunity to cross from East Berlin to West Berlin and back again. It doesn't compare--not even a little bit!

**Dan** · March-30-10, 06:13 PM

I have been through twice in the last month, and I cannot ever remember being treated as poorly as I was. The guys are down right rude, and why? Do they think that by acting rude they are somehow fighting terrorism?

I wonder if the government ever sends spotters through? Someone to test these guys?

**EastsideAl** · March-30-10, 06:22 PM

Yes lodgedodger, but you're conveniently ignoring the rest of what I said above. I could drive from Germany, through Holland, Belgium, France, Spain, to Portugal without going through customs. These are all certainly DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, some of which have been at war with one another within living memory, all of which speak different languages and have their own governments.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't protect ourselves when warranted, what I am saying is that the consistent petty harassment of people going back and forth between the U.S. and Canada is an huge and unnecessary waste of time and money. It's harmful to the economy of this region and our relations with our closest trading partner, and mostly only serves to make folks sitting behind desks in Washington look tough. It's a waste because if Germany and France, and indeed most of Europe, can reach a customs union, than the U.S. and Canada - 2 countries that have been at peace for nearly 200 years, with well-established democratic political systems, and for most of their border a common language - certainly could.

**jcole** · March-30-10, 06:40 PM

I don't see anyone railing against the fact that there are border guards on the US/Mexico border. Why is that?

The Dude · March-30-10, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Yes lodgedodger, but you're conveniently ignoring the rest of what I said above. I could drive from Germany, through Holland, Belgium, France, Spain, to Portugal without going through customs. These are all certainly DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, some of which have been at war with one another within living memory, all of which speak different languages and have their own governments.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't protect ourselves when warranted, what I am saying is that the consistent petty harassment of people going back and forth between the U.S. and Canada is an huge and unnecessary waste of time and money. It's harmful to the economy of this region and our relations with our closest trading partner, and mostly only serves to make folks sitting behind desks in Washington look tough. It's a waste because if Germany and France, and indeed most of Europe, can reach a customs union, than the U.S. and Canada - 2 countries that have been at peace for nearly 200 years, with well-established democratic political systems, and for most of their border a common language - certainly could.

If you do it for Canada, then you would have to do it for Mexico, too.

**Jimaz** · March-30-10, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

I don't see anyone railing against the fact that there are border guards on the US/Mexico border. Why is that?

Because "Detroit" is in the thread title and Detroit has no Mexican border?

Also, the now-chronic drug violence down there makes the two borders incomparable?

Ravine · March-30-10, 06:57 PM

Well, even we know that, at the moment, the U.S./Mexico border is kinda frothing over with illegal immigrants, drug traffickers, people fleeing from the now-overturned city of Juarez, and various nogoodniks of various types.
I think Dan's idea is a good one: Both governments should use "spotters" [[if they are not doing so, already) who could ensure not only that sound security routines are followed, but also that civility and non-confrontational behavior is practiced.
If one of the countries amassed too many demerits, they would be compelled to surrender a token percentage of their toll receipts for that accounting period.

LodgeDodger · March-30-10, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

Well, even we know that, at the moment, the U.S./Mexico border is kinda frothing over with illegal immigrants, drug traffickers, people fleeing from the now-overturned city of Juarez, and various nogoodniks of various types.
I think Dan's idea is a good one: Both governments should use "spotters" [[if they are not doing so, already) who could ensure not only that sound security routines are followed, but also that civility and non-confrontational behavior is practiced.
If one of the countries amassed too many demerits, they would be compelled to surrender a token percentage of their toll receipts for that accounting period.

You're suggesting a quality control of sorts. A Border Patrol "Secret Shopper". That could work.

**jcole** · March-30-10, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Because "Detroit" is in the thread title and Detroit has no Mexican border?

Also, the now-chronic drug violence down there makes the two borders incomparable?

So, the Detroit/Windsor 'border' is the only concern. How do you propose that we keep the citizens crossing the border between these two areas contained? Have border guards around Detroit and Windsor so they can stop further migration?

**Jimaz** · March-30-10, 07:12 PM

How do you propose that we keep the citizens crossing the border between these two areas contained?

I don't. Where are you going with this?

**jcole** · March-30-10, 07:18 PM

Canada has open borders with countries whose citizens we do not allow to immigrate here. How do you propose to control that factor?

**Jimaz** · March-30-10, 07:28 PM

"Contained" sounds like shutting off all commerce completely. I'm certainly not for that.

This isn't an either/or situation. Border guards can be both diligent in the security sense and courteous in the diplomatic sense. I've seen state troopers balance those roles very professionally.

**jcole** · March-30-10, 07:33 PM

I've never been harassed at any border crossing and I've crossed at Windsor, Sarnia, Buffalo, Niagara and on the ferry across Lake St. Clair. Also in Calais, ME. Maybe that's why I don't see the issue

Ravine · March-30-10, 07:35 PM

LD, it was Dan's idea, really; I was just building on it.

As for Mexico-- and I really don't mean this with any disrespect to Mexicans, who are OK with me and make the goddam best "ethnic" grub in the world-- I wish we could just saw Mexico off of the bottom of the U.S.; Mexico has some very severe problems erupting right now, and does not seem to have a viable program for curing them. We have a wheelbarrow overflowing with our own.
Besides, we import our drugs from overseas and acquire them from jack-leg docs, so we don't need them for that, anymore, either.
Boy am I in for it, now.

**Jimaz** · March-30-10, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

Mexico has some very severe problems erupting right now, and does not seem to have a viable program for curing them....

And neither do we. A good start might be for us to stop supplying their drug gangs with weapons. But that's another thread.

**canuck** · March-30-10, 08:15 PM

Lowell, If you check the Google street view of Stanstead and Derby Line roads again: a lot of them straddle the border. I remember driving on a road that had houses with Vermont plates on cars in the driveway and Quebec plates on the opposite side. There was a border crossing at a weird angle past a turn on that road. Funny thing is the houses were not older than maybe 50 years. I agree with you that the biggest problem is the wilderness surrounding the crossings. There is a lot of smuggling of illegal immigrants to or from the US and everything else you can think of.

I tend to not ever joke or be anything less than focussed when I cross the border which is not very often. The last time was two weeks ago. I was in New Hampshire and Vermont for the day, and before that maybe four years. I was pissed at the Bush era like a lot of folks in Montreal. Obamarama was a great moment for me. I wish my dad had been alive to witness this. I think that there will be more cooperation, if we dont get sucked in to the media tendency to fearmonger, etc...

**Gistok** · March-30-10, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by LodgeDodger

The poor guy was just doing his job. This higher-level "official" then comes along and pulls rank. Why the fuck didn't he just let the kid in the booth do his job instead of getting pissy with him?

The folks on this board seem to be taking questioning of the border patrol personally. If they let someone through who has criminal intent, they have a lot of explaining to do. Just suck it up and shut up about it, or stay home.

Lodgerdodger, I think you've blown Patricks comments out of proportion.

I've met Patrick at at least one of the Forum Picnic's... and spend some time talking with him... very polite and intelligent. He certainly didn't come across as a Christine "Do you know who the Fuck I am?" Beatty.

As a fellow government official he merely told the guy he was out of place.... nothing wrong with that!

.... and yes... I too like the idea of a "secret shopper"... type concept for border patrol officials.