Michigan should mothball the bridge plan

[1KielsonDrive]

To sum it up for me -in this case, I'll take my chances with the government option. Not that I like doing business with my government. After all, I've dealt with the MLCC, City County, County Health Department, DPD, I.R.S, etc, etc. But, at least I can find the jerks responsible for screwing me at various city halls and other agencies. Manny - well, you never know where he's at or what in the hell he's up to.

[kraig]

[/b]
Do you expect me to take your word for it?

No. You're free to figure it out for yourself. What do you think will create more jobs, freeway construction or more DRIC "study"?

[Retroit]

Maroun will be more responsible as a long-time owner than will be any term-limited politician or unaccountable government bureaucrat.

[Gsgeorge]

"Not to mention I'm a little worried every time I cross the Ambassador and look down through the potholes on the road deck to see the Detroit River a couple hundred feet below me... "

My mistake Gsgeorge. I guess it was your evil twin that posted this.

Nice way to dodge my point. I didn't say I NEVER traveled the Ambassador. Try again, this time try challenging some of my actual points, not some stupid loop-hole.

[kraig]

thanks genius, I already do.

but I'm not talking about me or even passenger cars so much as trucks. I don't want another bridge so I have an easier way to picnic in Windsor -- the tunnel gets the job done just fine. I want another bridge so freight & commerce can flow more freely and quickly between the US and Canada. I want another bridge so the semitrucks can get off of the streets in my neighborhood and go directly from the freeway to bridge. That was supposed to happen with the Ambassador, but greedy Maroun had to have his duty free shop & gas stations so he could siphon even more money off the bridge users. 25% of all trade between the two countries goes over that bridge. Wait times for trucks of an hour are not unusual. What is wrong with that picture? Wouldn't it make more sense if 10%-15% of trade went over each bridge, and wait times were cut down significantly, and semitrucks didn't have to travel surface streets to get to Canada? And, if one bridge fails or needs to close, there is a backup -- instead of diverting trucks to the ferry [[slower than molasses) or the Bluewater [[increased trip times & gas consumption).

Sounds to me like you need more custom agents. It probably won't cost 5 billion dollars either. Which means more money could go into your surface streets.

Question. Will another bridge be built as a companion to the Bluewater bridge as well? If the Bluewater has 70% capacity of the ambassador and all of the same arguments of redundancy are true. Isn't there a need to have another bridge there?

[Gsgeorge]

Sounds to me like you need more custom agents. It probably won't cost 5 billion dollars either. Which means more money could go into your surface streets.

Question. Will another bridge be built as a companion to the Bluewater bridge as well? If the Bluewater has 70% capacity of the ambassador and all of the same arguments of redundancy are true. Isn't there a need to have another bridge there?

You're forgetting that the Bluewater already is two bridges. They rebuilt theirs in the nineties and the old one is still used. The key is that they're separated by a few hundred feet, essentially making them two separate bridges. Maroun's "twinning" plan is no different than widening the existing bridge. This is not a failsafe plan. The fact remains that we need a suitable replacement for the heavily-used, worn, aging, narrow Ambassador. More border agents will not help traffic love faster if there's only two lanes.

[rb336]

Maroun will be more responsible as a long-time owner than will be any term-limited politician or unaccountable government bureaucrat.

which has been proven how? by not doing proper maintenance until forced to [[as in the current total deck replacement)? by maintaining the integrity of his many properties like the Mich. Central? his track record speaks volumes. a few years ago, a study said the Ambassador should last another 75 years with proper upkeep. now it won't last another 20 without MAJOR structural work

[Retroit]

Well, I'm not familiar with the structural study you mentioned, but let me point out that even government-owned bridges face maintenance problems, and even the government puts off maintenance, so to argue that private ownership is any less responsible is unfounded. Maroun has a greater interest in preventing a major collapse than the government: he would face a personal loss, whereas the government would simply pass the loss on to the taxpayers. My point about "responsibility" was in reference to financial responsibility. I think that Maroun is more likely to build and run a new bridge profitably than the government.

As for the MCS, wasn't this acquired by Maroun as a debt payment that was owed to him? I'm sure if there was a suitable use for the building, Maroun would be more likely to profit from it than the government would.

[The Dude]

So what happens to that partially built bridge next to the old one that ends at Fort Street?

[The Dude]

[kraig]

You're forgetting that the Bluewater already is two bridges. They rebuilt theirs in the nineties and the old one is still used. The key is that they're separated by a few hundred feet, essentially making them two separate bridges. Maroun's "twinning" plan is no different than widening the existing bridge. This is not a failsafe plan. The fact remains that we need a suitable replacement for the heavily-used, worn, aging, narrow Ambassador. More border agents will not help traffic love faster if there's only two lanes.

And the World Trade Center was two separate buildings. How did that work out? The theory that's always posed on this thread is that terrorists will go after the ambassador bridge in order to stop the border trade. If that's the case. What's to stop the terrorists from going after any other bridges as well as the tunnel at the same time?

Which brings me back to this; Something needs to be done to better secure what we already have. Installing additional unlocked doors to a house doesn't make it safer, it just gives the intruders more openings.

[Gsgeorge]

And the World Trade Center was two separate buildings. How did that work out?

Oh please, how tasteless. I see I've been wasting my time debating with you.

[1KielsonDrive]

[quote=Retroit;130076]Maroun will be more responsible as a long-time owner than will be any term-limited politician or unaccountable government bureaucrat.[/quote]
As opposed to what? Say, maybe, an unaccountable, tyrannical billionaire?

[1KielsonDrive]

No. You're free to figure it out for yourself. What do you think will create more jobs, freeway construction or more DRIC "study"?

Yep. And that is exactly what I'm doing, "study" and all. I'll take the 'study' and the DRIC.

[kraig]

Oh please, how tasteless. I see I've been wasting my time debating with you.

It's not tasteless, it's correct. There were 4 attacks that took place on the same day. Everyone that post about the bridge being hit shouldn't assume that the bridge would be the only target.

Terrorists aren't going to discern what's owned by Moroun and what's owned by MDOT. If the plan is to disrupt trade as much as possible, they're going to hit as much as possible.

[kraig]

Yep. And that is exactly what I'm doing, "study" and all. I'll take the 'study' and the DRIC.

And that, is a very good example why Michigan's economy has been ranked 50th out of 50 states, even worse than Post Katrina Louisiana. Unrealistic thinking.

[SWMAP]

As a private entity, Mr. Moroun was not required to release any information from his privately financed safety study. Only a congressional intervention [[John Dingel releasing the information that he essentially ordered) allowed the public to learn recently that the Bridge was in "fair to poor" physical condition. Following that release of important information [[which Moroun fought tenaciously) the DIBC announced a major road surface project to begin within months. Coincidental? Not likely. Moroun has to be shamed/forced/threatened to do anything that to improve his properties.
Now you may say: "Just take the tunnel if the Bridge isn't safe enough for you." However, truckers have no choice but to use the Bridge - although the structure is in poor shape and they could easily be sharing the lanes with terrorists and/or toxic chemicals. Moroun does not require inspections before trucks enter the Bridge from Canada..

I will be negatively impacted by the DRIC project. My home is JUST outside the foot-print. But for the good of all I am willing to take the hit. We need a public-owned bridge.

[kraig]

As a private entity, Mr. Moroun was not required to release any information from his privately financed safety study. Only a congressional intervention [[John Dingel releasing the information that he essentially ordered) allowed the public to learn recently that the Bridge was in "fair to poor" physical condition. Following that release of important information [[which Moroun fought tenaciously) the DIBC announced a major road surface project to begin within months. Coincidental? Not likely. Moroun has to be shamed/forced/threatened to do anything that to improve his properties.
Now you may say: "Just take the tunnel if the Bridge isn't safe enough for you." However, truckers have no choice but to use the Bridge - although the structure is in poor shape and they could easily be sharing the lanes with terrorists and/or toxic chemicals. Moroun does not require inspections before trucks enter the Bridge from Canada..

I will be negatively impacted by the DRIC project. My home is JUST outside the foot-print. But for the good of all I am willing to take the hit. We need a public-owned bridge.

The same Custom Agents that will work at the DRIC already work at the Ambassador, Bluewater and the tunnel, as well as, all of the other border crossings. That's not up to Moroun.

As far as the information that Dingel released. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't MDOT already have that information? I vaguely remember there being some type of agreement that they would not release the info. Now, if it's MDOT's job to watch over the public. Why would they agree to something like that?

[SWMAP]

Trucks and cars entering the bridge from Windsor are not inspected. Moroun doesn't allow it. I'm sure you often see MSP Enforcement vehicles on Fort St. They are spot-checking to see that all trucks exiting the Bridge onto Michigan roads have complied with the cargo inspections that they only undergo on the U.S. side. it is easy eveidently to just leave the inspection area.

As to MDOT entering a secret apct with the DIBC - you tell us why they would do that.

[SWMAP]

This from the famous Forbes article about Moroun's chokehold:
"Moroun often operates with impunity. Federal rules bar corrosives, explosives, radioactive waste and other toxic materials from crossing the bridge, but Moroun says the ban doesn't apply to the Ambassador. He gives "authorization letters" to certain truckers to haul some banned contents across his bridge. He won't let state troopers nab trucks on the bridge--they must ticket them upon leaving. "

[kraig]

"As to MDOT entering a secret pact with the DIBC - you tell us why they would do that."

Because at the time they felt it was in their best interest, so screw the public. Does that remind you of someone?

If you can ever come across them, check out some articles about what's gone on with the Bluewater Bridge. Chances are those stories would put MDOT in an entirely different light.

[kraig]

This from the famous Forbes article about Moroun's chokehold:
"Moroun often operates with impunity. Federal rules bar corrosives, explosives, radioactive waste and other toxic materials from crossing the bridge, but Moroun says the ban doesn't apply to the Ambassador. He gives "authorization letters" to certain truckers to haul some banned contents across his bridge. He won't let state troopers nab trucks on the bridge--they must ticket them upon leaving. "

Thanks for the info. I just read the article. Interesting stuff.

[BShea]

You're forgetting that the Bluewater already is two bridges. They rebuilt theirs in the nineties and the old one is still used. The key is that they're separated by a few hundred feet, essentially making them two separate bridges.

Untrue. If redundancy is truly a legitimate concern, then the BWB spans are one bridge for the purposes of being a terror target. This is basically what the proposed second AB span project would look like.

[1KielsonDrive]

[quote=kraig;130327]And that, is a very good example why Michigan's economy has been ranked 50th out of 50 states, even worse than Post Katrina Louisiana. Unrealistic thinking.[/quote]
Hey Kraig, I don't know where you get your facts and figures, but by my reckoning, I think Michigan is ranked 49th. Oops, I meant 48th. Ha, ha. Let's see, Manny's ranked , oh, about #2, on the list of worst tyrannical billionaires [[according to the Whatchmacallit think tank). Now that's 48 minus 2 equals, I think 46. Wow, we're really doing good here, unrealistically thinking. Maybe we should let Manny run our state government. He seems to be attempting that now.

[kraig]

[quote=1KielsonDrive;130377]

And that, is a very good example why Michigan's economy has been ranked 50th out of 50 states, even worse than Post Katrina Louisiana. Unrealistic thinking.[/quote]
Hey Kraig, I don't know where you get your facts and figures, but by my reckoning, I think Michigan is ranked 49th. Oops, I meant 48th. Ha, ha. Let's see, Manny's ranked , oh, about #2, on the list of worst tyrannical billionaires [[according to the Whatchmacallit think tank). Now that's 48 minus 2 equals, I think 46. Wow, we're really doing good here, unrealistically thinking. Maybe we should let Manny run our state government. He seems to be attempting that now.

Sigh.

http://money.cnn.com/news/storysuppl...pmap/index.htm

If you notice, the highest unemployment ranking of any state is 14.6%. And guess who that is? Grow up.