Dave Bing trying to steal L. Brooks' Precious Jewels

[bailey]

Why wouldn't he share an arena with Ilitch? Pretty much every NBA team that is in an NHL market shares its stadium with the NHL.

Show me a set up where to directly competeing entities have shared a stadium and one of them left a pristine arena they owned outright to sit empty as a result. C'mon.... you guys are sounding a bit desperate to make this make any financial sense for Gores. Gores moving the pistons would be an act of charity and a giant hit to PS&Es bottom line.

The Pistons are currently the sixth least valuable franchise in the NBA. Even accounting for market size, they are significantly under-performing, being less valuable than smaller market teams like the Memphis Grizzlies, Indiana Pacers and Utah Jazz. Owning the house may not really be all it's cracked up to be... Especially when the house is in the middle of nowhere and even renovation gimmicks aren't helping to fill lucrative corporate suites:

If the piston's were good, they'd be packing the house. The Palace owned the attendance records for the years the pistons were good... and if anything the surrounding area has actually gotten better [[term used loosely) than it was before. None of the piston's attendance issues or value has anything remotely to do with their location.

Yes, they might get a few more butts in seats for a shitty weeknight game this year if they were downtown.... but that is only because they suck right now.

[Mackinaw]

The Nets left the Izod Center-- comparable to the Palace in vintage-- for Newark's Prudential Center, shared with the Devils, and then eventually for the Barclays Center, which it shall heretofore share with the Islanders, who themselves are leaving a sweetheart deal in the middle of their Long Island fan base [[their arena is more comparable to the Joe, FWIW) in favor of 'rented' space in Brooklyn's premier venue.

Also, we have no idea what the terms and conditions of these leases are, and what makes them beneficial for the teams that move in. I don't understand the assumption that a share/lease arrangement has to be bad. I am sure if the Pistons reached out to Olympia/Detroit they'd make a fabulous arrangement. The issue is what hit the organization would take if it sold the Palace for what would probably be a significant % drop in value if it was without a pro franchise. But again, that's only an option. That could remain a related entity within Palace Entertainment and still be used for concerts, ice shows, college games etc. BTW, this revenue stream is going to take a hit regardless of whether the Pistons move-- the new downtown arena will absolutely take a certain number of such shows and other events. In fact I'd argue that the Palace has already taken a hit in value, and this will continue once the beautiful new space downtown becomes available. If we get something that is on par with the Barclays center, moreoever, you are only going to get the most budget, low-profile things in AH. Rock stars and rap stars are not going to accept an AH arrangement when they know that something world class and famous is available in the city center. Hell, New Jersey just SHUT DOWN the Izod Center [[still in perfect condition) because the bookings were so slow. Why would a pop star go there when they could choose between stunning arenas in Newark, Manhattan, and Brooklyn? And this is telling, because metro NYC has so many more annual concert/event bookings than metro Detroit, and the Izod Center still had virtues that Palace can't offer, like transit accessibility and nearness to other venues.

The Palace is like a 10-year-old car that you've paid for and just souped-up. You might be able to get a little more fun out of it, but if you have the opportunity to drive a brand new super car on favorable terms, why the hell would you insist on getting more miles out of the old one. You can put it in the garage for a rainy day, or you can sell it for whatever its worth. You're not going to get ahead by being stubborn.

[iheartthed]

Show me a set up where to directly competeing entities have shared a stadium and one of them left a pristine arena they owned outright to sit empty as a result. C'mon.... you guys are sounding a bit desperate to make this make any financial sense for Gores. Gores moving the pistons would be an act of charity and a giant hit to PS&Es bottom line.

If the piston's were good, they'd be packing the house. The Palace owned the attendance records for the years the pistons were good... and if anything the surrounding area has actually gotten better [[term used loosely) than it was before. None of the piston's attendance issues or value has anything remotely to do with their location.

Yes, they might get a few more butts in seats for a shitty weeknight game this year if they were downtown.... but that is only because they suck right now.

If I were Tom Gores I would seriously be looking at my options to revive interest in a bland and perpetual afterthought of a franchise. His options are 1) to produce an interesting team in Auburn Hills, or 2) use some other mechanism to generate interest which could be to move the team to either Detroit or another market altogether.

My personal opinion is that the Pistons will continue to be an afterthought in Auburn Hills. The fan base is fickle so they cannot count on Knicks-esque loyalty, and 20 miles north of Detroit is just not a sexy place for a superstar athlete to spend his career. And it really doesn't matter that they own the building if nobody is spending money there.

[iheartthed]

BTW, this revenue stream is going to take a hit regardless of whether the Pistons move-- the new downtown arena will absolutely take a certain number of such shows and other events. In fact I'd argue that the Palace has already taken a hit in value, and this will continue once the beautiful new space downtown becomes available.

That's also an excellent point.

[Khorasaurus]

Gores is in a really tough spot. The new arena is going to take almost all of the major concerts and one-off sporting events [[like the NCAA Tournament or Big Ten Hockey/Basketball tournaments) once it opens in 2017.

He knows it and any potential buyers for the Palace know it.

Meanwhile, his basketball team is near the bottom of the league in attendance [[28th out of 30 in total attendance and dead last in percentage of seats sold), despite improved performance - they aren't good by any stretch of the imagination, but they have a shot to make the playoffs.

He would almost certainly improve attendance by playing downtown, but only by 3-4,000 people per game or so at most. And my guess is that's not even close to making up how much he would lose by having to share gate, concessions, parking, etc with Ilitch. Not to mention any rent and not having any equity in the arena.

It's kind of a lose-lose situation for him. His best bet is probably to wait until the new arena opens, then sell PS&E in pieces. He will still be able to command a high price for the Pistons, because NBA franchises are very valuable even without arenas. He could sell the Palace to a developer, who could probably build a pretty lucrative industrial park or something right there. And he could sell DTE Music Theater to Ilitch or Oakland University or someone.

Then the new owner would have the choice to move the Pistons downtown or to a new market entirely. The new arena would probably keep them in town, although I could see the Ilitches demanding horrible terms.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by Mackinaw
BTW, this revenue stream is going to take a hit regardless of whether the Pistons move-- the new downtown arena will absolutely take a certain number of such shows and other events. In fact I'd argue that the Palace has already taken a hit in value, and this will continue once the beautiful new space downtown becomes available.

That's also an excellent point.

so the answer to this theoretical hit to the Palace's bookings is to go dark another 50ish nights a year?

Look you'd have a point if the pistons couldn't pack the place and lead the NBA in attendance when they were good..2002-2010 they were league leaders if not #1 with record setting streaks of sellouts. From like 04 on they sold out every home game. This is not some long ago era. It only started to get rocky in 2010. and the attendance decline is not the result of some shift in regional appetites...they've just not been consistently good. They've been a team in some serious transition since Davidson died. Gores is, at best, an enthusiastic amateur as far as team owners go.

Rock stars and rap stars are not going to accept an AH arrangement when they know that something world class and famous is available in the city center.

Now the Illtichville Stadium is a "world class and famous venue"? Come on now. It's still Detroit. no one on the management of these people gives a shit or can tell the difference between Detroit or AH. I don't disagree that it's going to be able to pull more than what JLA did, but end of the day, its about who's putting more money in the artist's pocket. When the Palace stops selling out every time anyone goes there, they'll stop booking it. Stop pretending anyone cares about anything but the money.

[Khorasaurus]

When the Palace stops selling out every time anyone goes there, they'll stop booking it. Stop pretending anyone cares about anything but the money.

I mostly agree with you on Pistons attendance. If they get good, they will draw just fine for regular seats. But the luxury boxes will continue to be a problem. The Palace's luxury boxes will be distant fourth in prestige behind the other three venues. They're currently a distant third, and only ahead of JLA because its luxury boxes aren't really "luxury."

But I completely disagree on concerts. The acts we're talking about are going to want to go the premier location in the area. And that's the new arena. It doesn't matter if they would sell out the Palace. They will sell out downtown, too. And the Palace will be left with acts that won't sell out or no acts at all.

[MAcc]

Could all of you urban planning geniuses post your degrees and work experience at the end of your posts.

L Brooks won't lose the Palace. The Palace is in the most perfect location there is. If only you Detroit homers were so seized with lowering crime, corruption and ending the educational genocide going on in your schools, instead of shiny meaningless things like where the basketball team plays. When your city is safe, perhaps then a venue like the Palace loses some of its niche. Even still, the location will always be prime; smack dab in the middle of the state's real wealth.

[MSUguy]

Could all of you urban planning geniuses post your degrees and work experience at the end of your posts.

L Brooks won't lose the Palace. The Palace is in the most perfect location there is. If only you Detroit homers were so seized with lowering crime, corruption and ending the educational genocide going on in your schools, instead of shiny meaningless things like where the basketball team plays. When your city is safe, perhaps then a venue like the Palace loses some of its niche. Even still, the location will always be prime; smack dab in the middle of the state's real wealth.

If that's your only definition of prime sure AH wins. But what's really better closer to wealth vs center of metro? Given that downtown teams don't have issues filling their luxury boxes and the Pistons didn't when they were good. I'd say it a wash. The wealthy will travel wherever to watch a team they want to see. So now you have venue on the northern outskirts of the metro vs on in the center of it that's easier to reach for ALL of Metro Detroit. In that respect, a downtown location wins hands down.

[detmsp]

But I completely disagree on concerts. The acts we're talking about are going to want to go the premier location in the area. And that's the new arena.

No. Like Bailey said, it's all about the money. No artist says "hey for this tour, let's make sure we're really at PREMIER locations. Even if we make less money. It's worth losing the money to know that my fans are going to be in a walkable neighborhood in an arena that has nicer bathrooms and a prettier facade."

They will go where they make more money. Could be downtown. Could be the Palace. I don't suppose any of us know anything that would tell us which venue would be more profitable for the artist.

[iheartthed]

No. Like Bailey said, it's all about the money. No artist says "hey for this tour, let's make sure we're really at PREMIER locations. Even if we make less money. It's worth losing the money to know that my fans are going to be in a walkable neighborhood in an arena that has nicer bathrooms and a prettier facade."

They will go where they make more money. Could be downtown. Could be the Palace. I don't suppose any of us know anything that would tell us which venue would be more profitable for the artist.

The big acts will want to be in the most high profile venue that also accommodates their show. That would probably be the new arena. Since the palace is not very well located [[like Madison Square Garden, for example), it's hard to imagine that over the long term it would perform well against a brand new, centrally located arena. The Palace has been pretty much the only venue in the Metro area to provide what it can provide as a concert venue. That will no longer be true in two years. Even if the Palace manages to split the difference with the new arena that would be a huge hit to the bottom line.

[Khorasaurus]

Could all of you urban planning geniuses post your degrees and work experience at the end of your posts.

L Brooks won't lose the Palace. The Palace is in the most perfect location there is. If only you Detroit homers were so seized with lowering crime, corruption and ending the educational genocide going on in your schools, instead of shiny meaningless things like where the basketball team plays. When your city is safe, perhaps then a venue like the Palace loses some of its niche. Even still, the location will always be prime; smack dab in the middle of the state's real wealth.

"Smack dab in the middle of the state's real wealth." Statements like this and its ilk keep appearing, and they're outright false. The Palace is far north of pretty much anything in the region, including rich people.

Let's make a list of the richest communities in the region:

Rochester Hills/Rochester - Ok, these guys are near the Palace.

Bloomfield Hills - Palace isn't too bad of a drive.

Birmingham - Palace is a slightly annoying, but not too far drive.

Troy - Same as Birmingham.

West Bloomfield - Palace isn't far, but how the hell do you get there? Orchard Lake Road? That's certainly fun trying to get to a 7 pm weeknight start.

Farmington Hills - The Palace is an awful slog. 696 to Telegraph to Square Lake to 75.

Novi - Like Farmington Hills, but worse.

Northville - Like Novi, but worse.

Ann Arbor - LOL.

Canton - Try going from Canton to Auburn Hills at rush hour. You might miss the game.

Grosse Pointe - I'm not even sure how to get to the Palace from here.

Grosse Isle - First you go downtown, then you fight traffic for 45 more minutes.

The problem isn't that the Palace isn't downtown. The problem isn't that it's in Oakland County. The problem is that it is really hard to get to from pretty much anywhere. Even places that are geographically close to the Palace have road systems that make it easier to get downtown [[for instance, parts of Farmington Hills and West Bloomfield near Northwestern Highway).

Put the Palace in Royal Oak, Southfield, or Dearborn and I think there would be a lot less clamoring for the Pistons to move downtown. Their location would logical and defensible. Right now, it isn't.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

^^ Not to mention, the sorry ass conditions of the roads makes the trek even more unpleasant. Chances are pretty good you'll hit a pothole and bust a tire and rim, and not even get to the game.

[Hypestyles]

.. I hope the team does well this year. but I still want them to move back to Detroit. it's a super-rare occasion that I make it up to AH for a game. Of course, with all the upgrades in infrastructure, it looks like Gores plans to be there for 8+ more years. Oh well. But if a new stadium is built downtown it should be with Gores' own money. And a community benefits agreement.

[softailrider]

Show me a set up where to directly competeing entities have shared a stadium and one of them left a pristine arena they owned outright to sit empty as a result. C'mon.... you guys are sounding a bit desperate to make this make any financial sense for Gores. Gores moving the pistons would be an act of charity and a giant hit to PS&Es bottom line.

If the piston's were good, they'd be packing the house. The Palace owned the attendance records for the years the pistons were good... and if anything the surrounding area has actually gotten better [[term used loosely) than it was before. None of the piston's attendance issues or value has anything remotely to do with their location.

Yes, they might get a few more butts in seats for a shitty weeknight game this year if they were downtown.... but that is only because they suck right now.

Pistons are actually showing a pulse these days, not like last year or earlier this year when they were just stealing Mr. Gores money.

[mwilbert]

The idea that the economics of the Palace won't be hurt by the new arena is silly. Either bookings or booking rates will go down in the face of strong competition, but I also agree with the people who think the Pistons moving is unlikely. The financial advantages of a team capturing all the arena-related revenue from its games are very hard to overcome. Whether there would be substantial increase in attendance at a downtown location is uncertain, and probably depends on the Pistons continuing to be mediocre to bad, since attendance at the Palace was excellent when the team was good.

[Dbest]

The idea that the economics of the Palace won't be hurt by the new arena is silly. Either bookings or booking rates will go down in the face of strong competition, but I also agree with the people who think the Pistons moving is unlikely. The financial advantages of a team capturing all the arena-related revenue from its games are very hard to overcome. Whether there would be substantial increase in attendance at a downtown location is uncertain, and probably depends on the Pistons continuing to be mediocre to bad, since attendance at the Palace was excellent when the team was good.

The problem is, we cant expect every Pistons team to accomplish what that team 10 yrs ago did. They were going to the ECF's every year, of course their attendance was great. That was a special team. But when the team is mediocre at best they still needs to be able to sell more seats. Cleveland outdrew Detroit in attendance last year, it's pathetic...

It just feels like Gores, and Mrs Davidson prior, have sucked all the life out of this franchise. They need to construct a GOOD team fast or reinvigorate the the franchise with a move back to Detroit.. The luxury box vacancies are glaring, thats a lot of lost revenue. Gores is a major step down from Mr. D...

[Dbest]

Tom Gores didn't rule out the possibility of moving downtown in this interview in July of 2014:

"We have a beautiful arena in the Palace of Auburn Hills, and we have invested tens of millions of dollars over the past three years to modernize and improve that facility," said Mark Barnhill, a spokesman and principal at owner Tom Gores' Los Angeles-based Platinum Equity LCC, via email. "At the same time, we would never close the door on alternatives if they made good sense for our fans, for our team, for our business and for Michigan."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ove-to-detroit

[Detroit500]

Well sure... anytime that article is referenced, it will remind people that we have a Basketball team in Detroit...

[AarunFast]

I'm a lurker here, but this topic is something I wanted to discuss.

I'm a Pistons season ticket holder, and I would LOVE if the Pistons moved downtown. I lived in Macomb, now Royal Oak and work in Detroit. No matter where I am driving from, The Palace is a nightmare to get to. Traveling I-75 to Auburn Hills will surely cause me to lose years on my life due to the stress of an hour of stop and go traffic. The Palace might be near some people with money, but from a transportation aspect, it might as well be in Ohio. Meanwhile in Detroit, every major expressway diverges within a short distance of the downtown core, and there are several ways to get in and out of the area if traffic is bad [[Gratiot, Woodward, Michigan). Not the case in AH. In fact, they even close the on-ramp to 75, making you take a detour to get on the highway.

Not to mention there is NOTHING to do in AH. You can't walk to anything from The Palace, and the options in the immediate area is a joke. Ciccarelli's? Culvers? Give me a break. Gores has it made; you can't park anywhere else and you can't eat anywhere close. Enjoy your overpriced B-Dubs and overpriced Bud Light. More $ for him.

Not to mention The Palace isn't so great. Yes, they've made some improvements, but the original seating is literally crumbling and the grade of the seats is too gradual, making the upper level seats some of the farthest away in the NBA. Also, the way they set up the seats to accommodate hockey makes for awkward areas behind the baskets and in the corners [[worse than most other arenas). Very bad sightlines. Other arenas in the NBA are much nicer [[Indy, Chicago, Memphis, Cleveland and Toronto are what I've seen) and newer, whilenThe Palace follows a strict design theme of exposed concrete walls and floors.

In the end, it makes almost no sense for Gores to relocate, as he has it made in The Palace by owning the building and having zero competition from parking lots and restaurants. And moving the team downtown won't cause attendance to skyrocket; a good team will. However, The Pistons would be much better served downtown, than next to an old dump in the middle of nowhere.

[Dbest]

Good points... i live out of state and have been to some games at the Palace over the years, not lately though. I'm not a fair-weather fan but I stay downtown and just don't want to commit the time to commuting to AH and back again like I've done in the past. If they were downtown I would have been to more games over the past few years. I even turned down a cherry deal on floor seats last yr... I used to hate this song and dance routine out in Pontiac with the Lions too...

[warsaw7]

I'm a lurker here, but this topic is something I wanted to discuss.

I'm a Pistons season ticket holder, and I would LOVE if the Pistons moved downtown. I lived in Macomb, now Royal Oak and work in Detroit. No matter where I am driving from, The Palace is a nightmare to get to. Traveling I-75 to Auburn Hills will surely cause me to lose years on my life due to the stress of an hour of stop and go traffic. The Palace might be near some people with money, but from a transportation aspect, it might as well be in Ohio. Meanwhile in Detroit, every major expressway diverges within a short distance of the downtown core, and there are several ways to get in and out of the area if traffic is bad [[Gratiot, Woodward, Michigan). Not the case in AH. In fact, they even close the on-ramp to 75, making you take a detour to get on the highway.

Not to mention there is NOTHING to do in AH. You can't walk to anything from The Palace, and the options in the immediate area is a joke. Ciccarelli's? Culvers? Give me a break. Gores has it made; you can't park anywhere else and you can't eat anywhere close. Enjoy your overpriced B-Dubs and overpriced Bud Light. More $ for him.

Not to mention The Palace isn't so great. Yes, they've made some improvements, but the original seating is literally crumbling and the grade of the seats is too gradual, making the upper level seats some of the farthest away in the NBA. Also, the way they set up the seats to accommodate hockey makes for awkward areas behind the baskets and in the corners [[worse than most other arenas). Very bad sightlines. Other arenas in the NBA are much nicer [[Indy, Chicago, Memphis, Cleveland and Toronto are what I've seen) and newer, whilenThe Palace follows a strict design theme of exposed concrete walls and floors.

In the end, it makes almost no sense for Gores to relocate, as he has it made in The Palace by owning the building and having zero competition from parking lots and restaurants. And moving the team downtown won't cause attendance to skyrocket; a good team will. However, The Pistons would be much better served downtown, than next to an old dump in the middle of nowhere.

It's quite simple. Yes it helps that the Pistons were playing extremely well during their runs. But let's face it, Detroit was not a viable destination between 2002 and 2009. Now that Detroit is a place that people want to venture to, it would make more sense to relocate downtown. Mark my words, even if the Pistons become a winning team again, the attendance is still going to be at the bottom of the NBA. People are now coming back to the city and want to invest money in the city, opposed to driving out to Auburn Hills.

[mwilbert]

Tom Gores didn't rule out the possibility of moving downtown in this interview in July of 2014:

"We have a beautiful arena in the Palace of Auburn Hills, and we have invested tens of millions of dollars over the past three years to modernize and improve that facility," said Mark Barnhill, a spokesman and principal at owner Tom Gores' Los Angeles-based Platinum Equity LCC, via email. "At the same time, we would never close the door on alternatives if they made good sense for our fans, for our team, for our business and for Michigan."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ove-to-detroit

Sure, but my point is that moving downtown is unlikely ever to make sense for the business as long as the Palace is an even vaguely viable facility and is owned by the same management as the team.

[Mackinaw]

The Pistons should play a single game in Joe Louis Arena this spring. Test the waters a bit. Watch every ticket sell and every seat be filled for a non-playoff team. Then they'll understand.

[MAcc]

The Pistons should play a single game in Joe Louis Arena this spring. Test the waters a bit. Watch every ticket sell and every seat be filled for a non-playoff team. Then they'll understand.

The shootings on Jefferson after each game would add to the excitement.