Detroit's Fresh Water

[Gistok]

Good point Jimaz...

I just checked, and the lowest point in the Continental Divide is 3,900 ft. in Colombus, New Mexico. With the Great Lakes averaging around 600 ft. above sea level [[except for Ontario), that would be a 3,400 elevation gain.... [[not counting hills and valleys along the way)... it would take a hell of a lot of energy to pump massive amounts of water 3,400 ft. up!

[Jimaz]

Maybe 3,300 ft. but who's counting?

I'm sure it would be technically possible to move the water but it would be much more cost-effective to move the water consumers to the water.

[CLAUDE G]

I agree, if you want to be around lots of fresh water then you should move here! Our lakes are low enough as it is, the last thing we should be doing is selling our water to other states.

[One Shot]

I agree, if you want to be around lots of fresh water then you should move here! Our lakes are low enough as it is, the last thing we should be doing is selling our water to other states.

AMEN!!!

[Ray1936]

Good point Jimaz...

I just checked, and the lowest point in the Continental Divide is 3,900 ft. in Colombus, New Mexico. With the Great Lakes averaging around 600 ft. above sea level [[except for Ontario), that would be a 3,400 elevation gain.... [[not counting hills and valleys along the way)... it would take a hell of a lot of energy to pump massive amounts of water 3,400 ft. up!

I dunno.....if it goes to LA, just above sea level, wouldn't the siphon effect pump the water over once it got started?

[Fury13]

http://www.circleofblue.org/waternew...-blue-economy/

http://www.esdinstitute.net/water/do...conomy-ppt.pdf

[Gistok]

I dunno.....if it goes to LA, just above sea level, wouldn't the siphon effect pump the water over once it got started?

Ray, I understand what you're saying... but look at this scenario.... if you have 2 above ground swimming pools.... one 2ft deep and the other 4 ft deep.... you can siphon water [[no motor or pump involved) from the 4 ft pool over the edge and down to the 2ft pool, but only until the water levels of both pools are at identical elevations..

But it doesn't work the other way around.... generally speaking you cannot siphon uphill. Even with the siphoning principle... elevation is the biggest part of the equation...

[Retroit]

The only lake that would be emptied by siphoning would be Lake Erie. Its bottom is above sea level. All the other lake bottoms are below sea level.

[Jimaz]

An over 2000-mile airtight siphon? LOL! Imagine Homeland Security trying to prevent any one guy from drilling an air hole anywhere along its length. Interesting idea though.

Move the thirsty to the water once, not the water to the thirsty continually.

[Retroit]

Ever hear of oil and natural gas pipelines?

[ferntruth]

Ever hear of oil and natural gas pipelines?

Why would you want to pump water through oil and natural gas pipelines?

[13074Glenfield]

It was pointed out earlier that there are five other states and a country on the Great Lakes and there's no way any of them are going to agree to sell the water because Michigan needs money. Sheesh.

[Bigb23]

I didn't want to start a new thread just for a book recommendation, but I strongly urge Dyes readers to get “The Third Coast� by Ted McClelland.
The Journalist takes a 9000 mile camping trip around the coasts of all five Great Lakes and interviews the local folk about all things related to the Great Lakes. Whatever I grew up thinking I knew about about this part of North America has been greatly enhanced by this man. Economics, politics, environment, and history, is written with charm, and humor.
Boatnerds, invasive species, Red Green, the Heidleberg project, and everything in between !
I found it at the local library, and highly recommend it.

[Hermod]

I dunno.....if it goes to LA, just above sea level, wouldn't the siphon effect pump the water over once it got started?

Assuming that the line was totally air tight over a few thousand miles of pipe.

[Bigb23]

Sorry - but this is a good review of the book.


http://rustbeltreader.wordpress.com/...ed-mcclelland/

[jbd441]

I think you all have good ideas... however it will be a long long time in the future before you see any water being diverted to other states from the Great Lakes. Georgia has been suffering from drought for a few years and discussed diversion. There are treaties between Canada and the US concerning water diversion. So it's not going to happen anytime soon.
As far a domestic oil drilling the rest of the country is going to have to fight Florida to drill directly off their coast in the GoM but then again Obama just might make it happen.

[Patrick]

That is a pretty idiotic and selfish idea.

You do realize that there are 5 other states and another country that have a say in what happens to the Great Lakes?

Detroit is not king of the Great Lakes

True but it isn't an equal say no matter how you cut it when looking at it from a state point of view. Michigan has over 3000 miles of shoreline...IL has what, 80 miles if that? Michigan is gonna have a hell of a lot more to say about the Great Lakes than any other state. That is just the way it is.

[detroitsgwenivere]

We had a discussion about this very subject in my Economic Georgaphy class. Now I'm no engineering or physics major, so forgive my lack of tech terms, but the basic argument against diversion was that the cost of doing so was much greater on the distribution side of the equation as opposed to the receiving end. The taxpayers in western states wouldn't be willing to pay their fair share for the cost of treatment and infrastructure upgrades in this state needed to handle that kind of movement. Then there's the utility right-of-way issues regarding the states that these pipelines would have to cross through. Some of those states have much lesser quality water than the Great Lakes and would demand to have access to this water as well.

Then there's the question of responsibility. The western states and the federal gov. have had impact studies done over 50 years ago that said that the water in that region wouldn't last, yet they continued using the water like it would never run out. How is this our problem? Was it CA's problem when their state started passing MPG standards that would end up costing MI residents thousands of jobs? Was it the residents of these states problem when they decided to buy foreign cars because it was cool, putting hundreds of thousands of Detroiters out of work? Maybe if parts of Las Vegas, CA, and Georgia came out looking like Detroit does now, they would think about these things....

They aren't that worried about us, so I'm really not that worried about them.

To the people of the west and south. If you want our water, bring yourselves, your businesses, your education, and your tax dollars here to Michigan, a much bigger bang for our buck. We'd love to have you [[and we might not hold your priuses against you either, just to show we mean it!)

[Retroit]

Maybe they could build a pipeline from the melting Arctic ice cap.

[[Well, they built an oil pipeline from Alaska!)

[Jimaz]

I repeat: "Move the thirsty to the water once instead of the water to the thirsty, continually."

Granted, the latter might produce a revenue stream for someone but the former solves the problem in one stroke. Who's pockets would we really be lining to prolong this problem?

[tallboy66]

http://www.glc.org/wetlands/
Start here then realize that if people want to live in the desert then they have to deal with the fact that there isn't a lot of water. The Great Lakes are this Mi., Ill., Wi. Canada, NY, Indiana, Ohio greatest feature/asset not to be sold off for a profit because people want green grass in Arizona.

[Trumpeteer]

Georgia has been suffering from drought for a few years and discussed diversion.

Time for a bit of a correction here. The "drought" in Georgia has been over for well past a year now. Lakes Allatoona [[841.0') and Lanier [[1,071.0') have been at full capacity since that time. During the drought, diversion was discussed only as it applies to three states, FL, AL, Ga, stating they had sole rights to water from these two GA based reservoirs. The MAJOR problem here is the Army Corp of Engineers having absolutely no clue as to how to operate the two dams to provide for appropriate water flow downstream while maintaining proper lake levels for the water supply of the Metro Atlanta area.

[RickBeall]

Hell yes! Finally somebody is thinking! Granholm, Bing, get off your lazy butts!

And we don't even need to be cutting edge on how to divert large amounts of water and make a profit. The Soviets are way ahead of us on this. Let's look at what they did with the 4th largest lake in the world, the Aral Sea.

http://www.alexandre.leroux.net/wate...r_aral_sea.jpg



These are edited exerpts from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

The Aral Sea has been steadily shrinking since the 1960s, after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet Union irrigation projects to grow cotton and rice in the desert. By 2007 the Aral had declined to 10% of its original size,

Some Soviet experts apparently considered the Aral to be "nature's error", and a Soviet engineer said in 1968 that "it is obvious to everyone that the evaporation of the Aral Sea is inevitable."

The retreat of the sea has reportedly also caused local climate change, with summers becoming hotter and drier, and winters colder and longer. The remnants of the South Aral continue to disappear and its drastic shrinkage has created the Aralkum, a desert on the former lakebed.

The receding sea has left huge plains covered with salt and toxic chemicals – the results of weapons testing, industrial projects, pesticides and fertilizer runoff – which are picked up and carried away by the wind as toxic dust and spread to the surrounding area.

The land around the Aral Sea is heavily polluted and the people living in the area are suffering from a lack of fresh water and health problems, including high rates of certain forms of cancer and lung diseases.

Liver, kidney and eye problems can also be attributed to the toxic dust storms.

Uzbekistan is now moving toward oil exploration in the drying South Aral seabed.

So, by diverting, say Lake Michigan, we could kill two birds with one stone, grow rice in Arizona and solve the energy crisis.

But the text I chopped up does not do justice to what was done to the Aral Sea. Do a Google search and look at the pictures and videos of the ghost boats laying on their sides in the desert.

But, hell ya! It would give Detroit a good shot in the arm!

[jbd441]

Time for a bit of a correction here. The "drought" in Georgia has been over for well past a year now. Lakes Allatoona [[841.0') and Lanier [[1,071.0') have been at full capacity since that time. During the drought, diversion was discussed only as it applies to three states, FL, AL, Ga, stating they had sole rights to water from these two GA based reservoirs. The MAJOR problem here is the Army Corp of Engineers having absolutely no clue as to how to operate the two dams to provide for appropriate water flow downstream while maintaining proper lake levels for the water supply of the Metro Atlanta area.

You're correct as it has been two years since I've been to Atlanta or heard any news of the drought. Also the diversion I was talking about was from the Great Lakes but had been discussed many times in the past. My post made it seem as though I was talking about Georgia wanting to divert water from the Great Lakes during the latest drought. My error and I apologize.

[detroitsgwenivere]

There was talk about diversion from the Great Lakes to Georgia by Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin. That was one of the dynamics of a proposed "National Water Policy" by AZ Gov. Bill Richardson.

Also, I was reading an article from citymayors .com that said:

"Congressional leader Dick Armey of Texas warned in 2000, thirsty and growing states will surely come after Great Lakes water, "We're not going to be buying it. We're going to be stealing it."

Scary stuff.