Vernor at Newark - Old Tunnel

[mcsdetroitfriend]

No I don't have any clear photos of the office however you can kind of see it in the aerial photo i posted...however that retaining wall on Vernor had a purpose and an office building as well...check it out !

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashtonp...7621895120054/

This office was occupied by train manufacturer companies [[Pullman etc) for maintenance as well as coal operations

[mcsdetroitfriend]

thanks MCS, i had no idea that was there. it must've been a very skinny building. it was torn down in the 50's? what offices did it house? the idea that area under the tracks was used for parking is very intriguing.

Only a certain section, you can see on Newark - if you drive by - a concrete ramp almost invisible due to the overgrowth. It probably only held a total of 20 cars. They were hurting for parking.

[HazenPingree]

Anybody know what this old tunnel is?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...260.95,,1,4.58

I assume it was a pedestrian tunnel maybe?

It doesn't seem to come out anywhere. Maybe the tunnel leads to steps that go up to the railway platform? That's the only think I can think of.

Just wondering. Thanks.

I believe that that is not actually a tunnel at all, but a urine filled entryway that leads to stairs that go up. If you take the stairs, you end up on the train tracks.

[rsa.313]

thanks MCS! i had no idea about that building either. was that one torn down around the 50's as well? that one makes more sense to me, since you can tell there used to be stubbed rail ines in the area.

can't really see where the ramp you're talking about is; will have to take a drive by. if it's ever redeveloped, it would make a lot of sense to turn that area under the tracks into a large parking lot, since the freight infrastructure wouldn't be required anymore [[probably).

[mcsdetroitfriend]

thanks MCS! i had no idea about that building either. was that one torn down around the 50's as well? that one makes more sense to me, since you can tell there used to be stubbed rail ines in the area.

can't really see where the ramp you're talking about is; will have to take a drive by. if it's ever redeveloped, it would make a lot of sense to turn that area under the tracks into a large parking lot, since the freight infrastructure wouldn't be required anymore [[probably).

It would make alot of sense to clear that out and use it for parking although it looks like it would be kind of tough with all the steel beams everywhere but it could be done.

The ramp is towards the middle you'll have to look for it

[rsa.313]

the column spacing isn't ideal, but would be pretty easy to accomodate. N/S is 35 ft. and E/W is 15 ft. parking spaces are minimum 9 ft., double lane circulation is minimum 20 ft., and single lane is minimum 12 ft. [[roughly). you could do an entrance off newark, two way circulation N/S, one way circulation E/W, with parking in between the N/S columns.

i see it. almost directly at the foot of 17th street; a ramp of asphalt up to the dock level. i was looking for a gap in the building, that's why i didn't see it.

so, buildings torn down around the 50's?

[mcsdetroitfriend]

the column spacing isn't ideal, but would be pretty easy to accomodate. N/S is 35 ft. and E/W is 15 ft. parking spaces are minimum 9 ft., double lane circulation is minimum 20 ft., and single lane is minimum 12 ft. [[roughly). you could do an entrance off newark, two way circulation N/S, one way circulation E/W, with parking in between the N/S columns.

i see it. almost directly at the foot of 17th street; a ramp of asphalt up to the dock level. i was looking for a gap in the building, that's why i didn't see it.

so, buildings torn down around the 50's?

It's definitely plausible, though I'm not familiar with the spacing of the columns as I've never been down there, and there isn't much documentation about that space.

Yes the buildings came down in the late 1950's early 60's when business really started to decline, it was around this time that the owners attempted to sell the building with no success, so they tore down, shut down the main waiting room to use as storage, closed the restaurant, among other things to save on operating costs.

[rsa.313]

i'm just going off the floorplan you provided via this link: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2532/...551a6781_b.jpg dimensions between the columns are shown.

great info. this is why i still stick around this forum. i'm familiar with the downfall of the station, but not the out buildings. the firm i work for was one of the last tenants out of the office tower in '88.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

It's beena while since I've looked at that floorplan, but there they were good eye! This forum teahces me something new everyday! It's a great resource!
Last firm huh? Which one? I remember there were only a couple that stayed for a month or so after AMTRAK packed up, but the shutdown timetable has always been a little fuzzy.

[rsa.313]

it was/is a small architecture firm the last [[credible) developer that brought it hired to do development plans. for a break on fees they were provided with cheap office space to work on the project. only left when invoices stopped getting paid and became very evident that the project was falling apart. stayed up until a few weeks before the office tower was shut down for good. i wrote a detailed account of those last few months far back in the archives. i tried searching for it to no avail. i know it's buried in here...somewhere. it would've been before the last major upgrade.

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Did you use the same handle then as you do now?

Would be a very interesting narrative, I've read a few articles in the Freep about this time but I never wrote down the dates. When did your firm leave, around what year? Most of the damage occurred shortly after you left because if your invoices weren't getting paid then neither was the security firm hired to watch the building.

[rsa.313]

i think at the time i posted it i was using the RSA handle. before that i was using RockStArchitect. pretty sure it'll be under the RSA one.

i wasn't with the firm at the time [[i was still in grade school). my boss relayed the stories to me, which is why i can't really recount them in detail now. he left the building while the developer still owner it/before the security firm took possession. it was around 1989.

we'll all be at the parade on sunday if you wanted to meet up.

[Jimaz]

i think at the time i posted it i was using the RSA handle. before that i was using RockStArchitect. pretty sure it'll be under the RSA one.

Was it in this thread? [[about halfway down the page just before the MCS photo)

[rsa.313]

that's it Jim! good digging, thanks.

cut and pasted for convenience:

Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 10:22 am:
i just forwarded that video to my boss. i knew this before, but he shared some more memories with me about the station in that year.

he had started up a small architecture firm specifically to work on renovation/rehabilitation plans for the station. they did, in fact, get hired by the developer and had offices in the office tower of the station. their name was MCA for michigan central architects.

conrail did move out, but he said that all of the employees were not entirely out until 1987. when they left, it was just their offices and the developer left in the building. the developer made quite an effort to get tenants into the space but [[obviously) to no avail. he moved his offices out of the building when it was obvious that the developer had given up trying to do anything.

after the station closed and the developer stopped making efforts into doing anything to the building, heat, water, and security was present in the building. this security force was primarily off-duty DPD officers. when they stopped getting paid by the developer, they placed a lien on the building. the lien went thru and they took control. they then hired another security force to secure the building, which had quite a difficult time doing so. this, coupled with the officers inability and lack of resources, led them to selling the station to matty maroun. who subsequently turned off the power, water, locked the doors and walked away from it.

he was not very sure about timing, but i believe it occurred thus: 1985-developer buys building and starts trying to redevelop it. 1987-station closes and final conrail employees move out. 1988-developer gives up and last tenants move out of building. 1990-officers take control of the building. 1992~1994[[?)-sold to matty maroun.

my boss said that the station was still in very good condition at the time of closure. yes it needed a good cleaning and some repair work, but was mostly intact. he said that the office tower faired very well over the years. all of the original panelling, doors, fixtures, finishes, and even furniture were still there when he left. i have talked to some other architects, hired by the officers to walk thru the building in 1990 and 1991, and they said even then the building was still in good shape. power was on, everything was still there [[including the chandeliers) and break-ins had mostly been thwarted.

everyone that i've talked to that have visit the building during this time period are all of the same opinion: the current owner of the building did absolutely nothing to protect the building and it went to hell extremely quickly. now, i could be mistaken on some of my facts, but i thought i'd pass on information/opinions i've learned about the station during the time of it's downfall.

i'll ask this weekend about more specific timelines and such if you want MCS. he even has some pictures he took on the way out in 1988; i'll see if he'll let me post them.

[cman710]

I'd love to see any 1988-era photos of MCS, and would greatly appreciate it if he would be willing to share!

[mcsdetroitfriend]

You know I've actually read that before. From what I know [[but I could easily be wrong) I think some of the dates are a little off but that happens after 20 years and Matty got the building as a debt payment in 1995, that I do know for sure.

And I'm not sure if I'll be at the parade or not as I will be in the city on Tuesday on MCS related business. But if I wind up going I'll send you a PM.

Would love to see those photos! Photos from 1988-1999 are very hard to come by as most of them exist as 4x6 prints from a drugstore and would need to be scanned, having them would help put together a timeline of destruction, I've seen the flyer for the "Rave" from 1992 and the building already looked pretty mangled even by then; the furniture, light fixtures, and anything else that could be sold had already been by then. Go to the Gandy Dancer in Ann Arbor and the egg shaped lights that hang in the main dining hall are the same that hung in the rounded elevator lobbies of MCS, Chuck Muer bought them up at auction at put them there.

I just got some Kodachrome slides from 1982 that I need to scan still, the building still looks pretty nice but very familiar at the same time, as there are already some gnarly looking fences for parking security, almost foretelling its future.

[cman710]

Finally found it! Click here for Joe Braun's excellent photography of some of the MCS tunnels. Click the link at the bottom of the page to continue. Some of the tunnel areas are much more intact that therest of MCS. Also check out his entire MCS set, as he has great photos.

[detroitbred]

Those are awesome pictures! Haunting, sad, beautiful at the same time

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Wow those are probably the most clear photos I've seen in the underworld, long exposure times for sure!

The first tunnel is the passenger subway where passengers would embark on their journey; the first photo is facing south towards Newark, and the third photograph is facing North towards the depot, you can see the barricaded doors [[you can see a before and after shot here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ashtonpar/4311672655/). You'll notice the "modernization" that was inflicted on the depot in these photographs, an addition that can only be described as a "faux-drop ceiling" was added over the decorative plaster ceiling, I can only guess the stations owners thought it might deaden sound in a way, or that it looked more pleasing at the time than the "old-fashioned decor"

The second isn't really a tunnel, it's the area under the tracks again several vehicles were left behind after the closure for one reason or another, the car shown is one of them [[there's also a forklift or two under there), recently one of the engines was found in the concourse, someone was trying to pilfer usable parts in a brighter environment.....craziness)

The third one however is one I've never seen before and actually have no idea where in the depot it is at all, to the point I almost don't believe it's existence, I've seen similar shots taken inside the Roosevelt Warehouse [[there are alot of those mail sorting ramps in the building.) However, if this really is taken inside the Depot it's definitely something brand new to me, and this coming week I'll ask about it at the meeting I'm attending.

Thanks for the link! *Bookmarked*

[Hornwrecker]

Attachment 5472
Sanborn

[mcsdetroitfriend]

What year is that Sanborn from? I have one from 1940's [[it's xerox'd though so I don't have a specific date)

[Hornwrecker]

1921 vol. 1

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Nice! I just looked at mine it's a little more detailed with the freight elevators noted, and it also includes sub-street level water pipes, etc. But those Sanborn maps are a great resource. I don't know much about sanborn maps, how often are editions updated? I'd love to see a more recent version showing the same detail after everything was shut down and reorganized.

[Hornwrecker]

Here's the coal conveyor tunnel under Vernor [[17th St), from the same map sheet.

Attachment 5474

[mcsdetroitfriend]

Which is the source of some debate as being the cause of most of the flooding in the basement. It's coming from runoff from that tunnel as well as the mail tunnel between the Roosevelt Warehouse....you'll also notice above ground the pipes that provide fresh air to the tunnels, black pipes on Vernor and 15th I think