M1 Rail has a website

[Gsgeorge]

For clarification purposes:

Circle


Line

Refer to this guide as necessary.

Your logic doesn't work. You're assuming a 9-mile radius circle instead of a 2.9-mile one. The M1 line is three miles straight. The DPM is three miles in a circle, but it's really only 1-mile across at its widest point.

The PM is 2.9 miles in a circle with 12 stops [[right?) Serving what is supposedly the most densely populated area of Detroit. The M1 will [[maybe) be about 3 miles with 12-15 [[maybe) stops along Detroit's busiest street. I don't know, I think they're are more similarities than differences.

But more to your point, if you are...say a resident of Birmingham. You are not going to drive halfway down, park your car, get out, pay for parking, go wait for a train that will apparently stop every two blocks, just to get to the DIA. You're just gonna drive down a very wide and very fast moving street to get to your destination.

Your logic is way off as well.

Let's go with your point about "density" [[aka population) first. According to city-data.com, the residential population of the Downtown neighborhood [[which includes Bricktown & the CBD) is 4,359. Generous estimates by the Brookings Institute place it at 6,500. See here for downtown population data.

The populations of those living within a half-mile of the proposed M1 Rail line, which would include some parts of the populations of New Center, MIdtown, Brush Park, Art Center, and Med Center, is conservatively 25,355. Remember, this is residential only.

Add the roughly 80,500+ people that work Downtown you have roughly 86,000 people that could potentially use the People Mover. M1 Rail, on the other hand, can tap into the additional 20,965 New Center employees, 12,000 Med Center employees, 2,500 Wayne State employees, and 31,786 WSU students, and suddenly the M1 can serve from 141,320-173,000 people conservatively compared to the DPM's 86,000.

Then you have to factor in the 5,600,000 visitors to the CBD every year for events at Cobo, Fox Theater, Stadiums, etc. But wait--this doesn't include the DIA's 532,273 visitors per year.

So you can see where I'm going with this. Extending the line up Woodward invites hundreds of thousands more potential users to the line than the DPM.

Regarding suburbanites that come downtown... "won't take the train... would rather just drive," etc. Look at it this way. A Birmingham family comes downtown for a daytime ball game and spends $10 on parking. They leave the stadium hungry, and staring them in the face is the the M1 rail. Suddenly the world is open to them. They can leave the car, safe in the garage, hop on the rail, get out at Atlas or Union Street, grab a burger along Woodward for a change of scenery... shoot, if they're early enough they can even grab a show at DFT or browse the museum -- all without having to gather the kids, cram them in the car, leave the garage, navigate Detroit's confusing streets northwards, pay for parking again when you get to your destination, etc. To me this seems like a very appealing option. People in other cities do it all the time. Why not here? I would wager that suburbanites are much more willing to sacrifice a few extra minutes during their destination-to-destination commute for some added comfort & relaxation. Who do you know that actually enjoys driving, especially in Detroit? People would much rather people driven around, or grab a ride--or, in this case, hop on a train.

Finally, I would wager that suburbanites are not the real target audience here, and if anything they make up a small percentage of the anticipated riders. It's everyday residents, downtown workers, and visitors who want to come to Detroit without renting a car--these people will use the line most frequently.

The final point is one of simple aesthetics & practicality. The DPM failed because it rather slowly circumnavigates an area that is easily traversable by foot [[the CBD is one mile across). This is simply not comparable to the M1 line, which covers a distance far greater than is feasible on foot.

[Bearinabox]

Your logic doesn't work. You're assuming a 9-mile radius circle instead of a 2.9-mile one. The M1 line is three miles straight. The DPM is three miles in a circle, but it's really only 1-mile across at its widest point.

I don't understand how this is relevant to the post you quoted.

[bailey]

Let's go with your point about "density" [[aka population) first. According to city-data.com, the residential population of the Downtown neighborhood [[which includes Bricktown & the CBD) is 4,359. Generous estimates by the Brookings Institute place it at 6,500. See here for downtown population data.

The populations of those living within a half-mile of the proposed M1 Rail line, which would include some parts of the populations of New Center, MIdtown, Brush Park, Art Center, and Med Center, is conservatively 25,355. Remember, this is residential only.

Add the roughly 80,500+ people that work Downtown you have roughly 86,000 people that could potentially use the People Mover. M1 Rail, on the other hand, can tap into the additional 20,965 New Center employees, 12,000 Med Center employees, 2,500 Wayne State employees, and 31,786 WSU students, and suddenly the M1 can serve from 141,320-173,000 people conservatively compared to the DPM's 86,000

Ok, but how many of those people work downtown. I rented downtown .... worked in Troy the whole time. In fact, very few of the people I knew in my building worked anywhere that would be serviceable by this line and I would bet if it was constructed today, a stop would be right outside the front door.
. If people wont walk more than 1/8 of a mile between stops are they going to walk more than 1/8th of a mile off the line?

With regard to all the employees of these places... great someone works in New Center... but they live in Novi.

Just living or working near Woodard doesn't really work around here because it rarely means you do both.

Then you have to factor in the 5,600,000 visitors to the CBD every year for events at Cobo, Fox Theater, Stadiums, etc. But wait--this doesn't include the DIA's 532,273 visitors per year.

So you can see where I'm going with this. Extending the line up Woodward invites hundreds of thousands more potential users to the line than the DPM.

yes to use as a parking shuttle on game day or the auto show.

Regarding suburbanites that come downtown... "won't take the train... would rather just drive," etc. Look at it this way. A Birmingham family comes downtown for a daytime ball game and spends $10 on parking. They leave the stadium hungry, and staring them in the face is the the M1 rail. Suddenly the world is open to them. They can leave the car, safe in the garage, hop on the rail, get out at Atlas or Union Street, grab a burger along Woodward for a change of scenery... shoot, if they're early enough they can even grab a show at DFT or browse the museum -- all without having to gather the kids, cram them in the car, leave the garage, navigate Detroit's confusing streets northwards, pay for parking again when you get to your destination, etc. To me this seems like a very appealing option. People in other cities do it all the time. Why not here? I would wager that suburbanites are much more willing to sacrifice a few extra minutes during their destination-to-destination commute for some added comfort & relaxation

Which again...as I''ve said before and was shouted down...this is the primary function of this rail line... parking shuttle to be used on weekends. Basically your scenario would allow for the thing to be shut from 9-5 M-f on non game days. What about sundays? Will it run for Lions games? As this is Detroit, I'd bet not.

IF we had a current system not run by incompetents, "precious jewel" protectors, or felons, the system of buses would accomplish this task. Any other major city doesn't require a light rail system to get it's people to use public transport to go three blocks on a game day. Counter to what everyone around here believes, Chicago has a shitload of buses and the poors arent the only ones who ride them

Who do you know that actually enjoys driving, especially in Detroit? People would much rather people driven around, or grab a ride--or, in this case, hop on a train.

or a bus if it wasnt half broken down and smelling of bum piss.

Finally, I would wager that suburbanites are not the real target audience here, and if anything they make up a small percentage of the anticipated riders. It's everyday residents, downtown workers, and visitors who want to come to Detroit without renting a car--these people will use the line most frequently.

Then why are the suburbanites being asked to pay for the thing in the name of regionalism if they are clearly not going to be the real target audience?

This is simply not comparable to the M1 line, which covers a distance far greater than is feasible on foot

I don't disagree, lets just make the stops more than a block apart and maybe be a little more ambitious than a plan that takes us from downtown to grand blvd.

[professorscott]

The general theme of a lot of the posts on this topic seems to me to boil down to "if we can't do what I think would be a perfect transit line, let's not do anything at all". People who work based on that thesis never accomplish anything.

M1 Rail is not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS is better than M1 Rail but still not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS + extend it to Royal Oak or Birmingham is even better but still not perfect.

What each system is, is an improvement over what we have, and moves us incrementally closer to a real transit system.

Now to address a couple of points. Why can't it be built all at once? Because nobody has the money. Why did DTOGS stop south of Eight Mile? Because DDOT doesn't serve Ferndale or Royal Oak, and Oakland County's government has not shown the least bit of interest in improved transit. Why does M1 Rail have so many stops? Because that is what the people who are paying for it want. If you think there should be five stops instead of twelve - and I disagree with you in that case - toss in twenty or thirty million dollars, get a seat on the board, and make your proposal.

[bailey]

the general theme of a lot of the posts on this topic seems to me to boil down to "if we can't do what I think would be a perfect transit line, let's not do anything at all". People who work based on that thesis never accomplish anything.

No, that is not the general theme. The theme is we already have a stupid friggen amusement park ride/parking shuttle masquerading as "mass transit"...lets not repeat the mistake in name of having "something". Ok kids...keep your hands and arms inside the tram at all times... remember you're parked in "Mickey Mouse Section 2"! And don't forget, just so you dont have to actually walk anywhere, there is a stop at every corner for your ease and comfort!.

M1 Rail is not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS is better than M1 Rail but still not perfect. M1 Rail + DTOGS + extend it to Royal Oak or Birmingham is even better but still not perfect.
What each system is, is an improvement over what we have, and moves us incrementally closer to a real transit system.

Let's got back and dig up some 25 yr old quotes about the PM. I bet there are one or three that are indistinguishable from this statement. Is this a 60 yr development plan to be able to ride light rail from Detroit to Birmingham? IIRC we were supposed to be zipping up and down woodard on a fancy new train by 2008. Now it's 2013....IF all the the stars align. Then some undefined future time we MIGHT get all the way to 8 mile.

Now to address a couple of points. Why can't it be built all at once? Because nobody has the money. Why did DTOGS stop south of Eight Mile? Because DDOT doesn't serve Ferndale or Royal Oak, and Oakland County's government has not shown the least bit of interest in improved transit.

Why does Oakland County get veto power? Detroit allegedly has the two of the longest serving representatives in the history of Congress. Not to mention the Congressmommny...oh wait, she's pulled her support for this in favor of high speed rail...scratch that.. Anyway, Michigan also has a very senior Senator. Fox news keeps telling me that all this seniority automatically mean lots of Pork and earmarks which is why we need national term limits and line item vetos.. Detroit isn't drowning in transit money you say? Gosh, that's weird. I wonder why? I mean we also have a two term Democrat governor that allegedly has the ear of the current presidential administration and is all about cool cites. Are you saying L Brooks Patterson is more powerful than all these people? Brooksie is standing athwart Woodward and single handedly stopping any incursion into his County? Well, golly someone should do something about that.

Why does M1 Rail have so many stops? Because that is what the people who are paying for it want. If you think there should be five stops instead of twelve - and I disagree with you in that case - toss in twenty or thirty million dollars, get a seat on the board, and make your proposal.

By all means... this is Detroit after all. Those who have the gold make the rules and Detroit should take what it can get, no matter how half assed. But really, isn't that how Detroit got the PM in the first place?

[Gsgeorge]

With regard to all the employees of these places... great someone works in New Center... but they live in Novi.

Just living or working near Woodard doesn't really work around here because it rarely means you do both.

What if said people want to grab lunch with a client downtown? Or go to a neighboring office for a meeting? Just because they happen to live in Novi does not mean they won't use the line. They still spend 6-10 hours in the city and might run errands, buy lunch, etc. in the city.

Basically your scenario would allow for the thing to be shut from 9-5 M-f on non game days. What about sundays? Will it run for Lions games? As this is Detroit, I'd bet not.

Please. I think if Ilitch, Penske, etc. are paying for this thing, they'll make sure it's running on game days. M1 has stated the goal is to run 7 days a week. And the system can still serve multiple functions. It can move around residents AND at the same time shuttle visitors & suburbanites.... what a concept.

IF we had a current system not run by incompetents, "precious jewel" protectors, or felons, the system of buses would accomplish this task. Any other major city doesn't require a light rail system to get it's people to use public transport to go three blocks on a game day. Counter to what everyone around here believes, Chicago has a shitload of buses and the poors arent the only ones who ride them

I can't disagree with you about the system being run by a reserved & untrusting 'old guard'. But Chicago has the advantage of having a really extensive rail system that people are used to riding, even suburbanites. The attitude towards transit out there is, as a result, way more accepting -- in other words, people might think busses suck, but they're still willing to ride them, because they're used to riding rail. This is an additional reason to install the light rail--if people use the rail, they become more open to using other transit options in the city, especially when they see connections from the main line leading to other attractions [[improved bus stops, newer busses, and better signage would be a wise ancillary investment for DDOT & M1 partners -- they should be pursuing these investments now, but of course, bus service has been reduced). Love the catch 22 here. I think cutting bus service was unwise. A healthy transit system is one that offers both busses & rail. In this sense I absolutely agree with you. But the other half of the process is going to be reintroducing transit as a perfectly reasonable alternative to automobiles to the city residents & suburbanites. No one is telling you to ditch the car. Park & ride.

Then why are the suburbanites being asked to pay for the thing in the name of regionalism if they are clearly not going to be the real target audience?

where is the money coming from again? Last I checked the initial $125 is funded by private stakeholders & TIGER funds. The second phase is funded my matching federal grants & city money.

I don't disagree, lets just make the stops more than a block apart and maybe be a little more ambitious than a plan that takes us from downtown to grand blvd.

Sure -- but I really think the only contentious point of the line is the stretch between I-75 and the river. I can see one of these stops being ditched -- River, Campus Martius, Foxtown would be a reasonable alternative to what is currently proposed.