2 Detroit teens: I Don't 'Act White' . . . I Don't 'Speak White'

[LeannaM]

I don't know if "black speak" is a dialect or laziness. Some would probably argue that Redneck dialect may also be laziness, since it's pretty far from proper English as well.

If someone is speaking to me, especially professionally, I prefer proper English. If they're talking to each other, it doesn't really bother me.

I think everyone should be able to use proper English, but do I expect them to speak properly all the time, even while just talking to each other? Not really. It would be nice if everyone talked properly all the time, but most people don't. In the Midwest, even casual talk may sound more proper, simply because Midwesterners generally don't have that much of an accent. But when you go to other parts of the country, there are various dialects and accents.

[LeannaM]

Don't even try pulling that B.S. about "black American English" as if it were some legitimate separate language. It isn't. At best, it is "a dialect" - but one that is not considered acceptable for use in the workplace by the vast majority of American corporate personnel, and it is one that when used would cause the vast majority of American corporate personnel to significantly lower their opinion of that person's value as an employee and which would make it extremely difficult for that person to obtain a job.

I think it may be a dialect as well. Same as many other dialects. I also agree that most dialects should not be expressed in a business situation, unless it is to your benefit. If a person comes into a job interview poorly dressed and difficult to understand, they probably will be less likely to get hired. I don't think that's a racial thing. I think people just have to know their audience.

[Michigan]

So I just re-read it and my response still stands. Illiterate is a person who cannot read. How does a person's spoken dialect give the appearance that a person cannot read? This is a serious question.

I'm really past the e-racial/class arguments so I'm gonna say what I have to say as nicely as possible and exit this thread. It takes a pretty bold prejudice to draw a line from a person's dialect to whether or not he or she can read. If a black kid from Detroit encounters just one person who will make such a judgment about him from the way that he speaks then that person probably isn't worth him speaking to. If he encounters a hundred people who will make such a judgment about him for that then his problems are bigger than just his dialect -- his problem is that he's a black kid from Detroit!

If you're a person who would automatically assume that a person's dialect says anything about whether or not he or she can read, then I hope that one day you take the time to sit in a quiet room by yourself and truly understand why you do that. It really is a very flawed way to determine whether someone can read or not. And erasing a cultural dialect won't do much of anything to change why other people develop these preconceptions about a black kid from Detroit who speaks black American English [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African...acular_English).

It is funny to watch you try to side step your own statements. When you say something stupid, you should just own up to it. The way a person speaks conveys all sorts of information about that person to the people that they meet, as do clothes, and mannerisms.It has nothing to do with "being black", except in a racist mind, which I am hoping yours is not. There are countless examples of white people being portrayed in this way through popular culture. For a very contemporary one you should watch The Simpsons and listen to how Cletus speaks. Why do you think they have him speak in that manner? Is it because the writers of the show are racist? I think that you know that you are sounding a little stupid right now.
You are a little too sensitive to be honest or objective, although you seem to want everyone to think you are. I hope that one day you take the time to sit in a quiet room by yourself and truly understand why you do that.

[reddog289]

Growing up in this area you hear all kinds of variations on the english language. I myself never did well in that subject. I work in two elementary schools and it is pretty diverse in both. I just talk like I talk, and try not to make myself look too dumb. I guess if there were more black kids at my schools I might have heard the saying about talking too white. I have also seen the whole changing of speak as to say amounst coworkers, It don't bother me a bit, As long as it is some form of the english language, I can figure it out.

[RealityCheck]

Take a deep, cleansing breath now everybody.

It's a sunny, pre-spring Saturday morning . . . a good time to pause and reflect here about the words that started this lively, illuminating thread 25 hours, 53 comments and 1,530 views ago.

Some of us have gone all adult/tangential/snippy . . . so it may be useful to go back to the two young initiators of this discussion as a reminder of what they think is important.

There's no specific way to act white or to act black—there's only one way to act: like yourself.
-- Joshua Jamerson

All people, no matter what race they are, have the capability to speak their language correctly. When my generation realizes that it is not wise to look upon intelligent speech as a shortcoming, then maybe the practice of using poor speech will end.
-- Taylor Trammell

[Irvine Laird]

Everything has its place and time. The fact is, people who articulate their English will be more effective in the American workplace. I'll compare this to GAAP in accounting--a common language and standards help us function better together.

My wife observes that I have two distinct voices: One for business and one for family and friends. When family and friends are around, I naturally speak in the Southern drawl of my family roots. I use slang and words I would never use in a business context. Something about this is deeply comfortable and I like that it connects me to my personal history.

[Ravine]

"Something about this is deeply comfortable and I like that it connects me to my personal history."

Sounds good, to me. Here's hoping that nobody accuses you of clinging to ignorance just because you like to pad around in your verbal slippers when you're at ease.

The way in which this thread was briefly mutated into a discussion of what would, and would not, fly during a job interview was a charade, in my opinion, and was used as a justification for expressing a point of view that has little to do with making sure that everybody is up to speed on how to talk during a goddam job interview.

[Patrick]

Funny thing: If a couple of black individuals sit together as part of a larger group [[i.e., a meeting), they speak in plain, midwestern-accented English to each other. If those same two people are alone in an office, they converse in a very different dialect of English. I'm white. If I happen to join these two in the office, most times, their language reverts to "regular" English as if to include me in their discussion

The same thing happens with me at my workplace with coworkers. I think it is really just a matter of peopl being in a comfort zone with like-minded people.

[RealityCheck]

. . . pad around in your verbal slippers when you're at ease.

Now that is a colorful way to paint with words, Ravine!

You've given us a visual definition of "register switching," as East Detroit put it last eve.

[KENSINGTONY]

My buddy has a sister who moved to Mississippi several years ago.She was back here on a visit a few years ago and I complimented on the subtle Southern accent[[more of a lilt,really) her voice had acquired from her years down there.She said to me "What accent?".Broke me up into laughter right there.

[dookie joe]

So I just re-read it and my response still stands. Illiterate is a person who cannot read. How does a person's spoken dialect give the appearance that a person cannot read? This is a serious question.

I'm really past the e-racial/class arguments so I'm gonna say what I have to say as nicely as possible and exit this thread. It takes a pretty bold prejudice to draw a line from a person's dialect to whether or not he or she can read. If a black kid from Detroit encounters just one person who will make such a judgment about him from the way that he speaks then that person probably isn't worth him speaking to. If he encounters a hundred people who will make such a judgment about him for that then his problems are bigger than just his dialect -- his problem is that he's a black kid from Detroit!

If you're a person who would automatically assume that a person's dialect says anything about whether or not he or she can read, then I hope that one day you take the time to sit in a quiet room by yourself and truly understand why you do that. It really is a very flawed way to determine whether someone can read or not. And erasing a cultural dialect won't do much of anything to change why other people develop these preconceptions about a black kid from Detroit who speaks black American English [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African...acular_English).

Congratulations on having attained a higher plane of consciousness than most mortals.

And if Jethro Bodine ever lumbers into your office, I'm sure he'll bounce out just a'grinnin' and a'twistin' his hat cuz you just gave him one of them thar jobs. Because you would NEVER judge someone on how they speak.

[dookie joe]

I don't know if "black speak" is a dialect or laziness. Some would probably argue that Redneck dialect may also be laziness, since it's pretty far from proper English as well.

Nah. It's perfectly natural to speak differently according to your company. You wouldn't speak in the same tone if you were in bed with your wife as you would at the Thanksgiving table at her parents' house. If I'm with the fellas, I speak differently than when I'm at work.

I think everyone should be able to use proper English, but do I expect them to speak properly all the time, even while just talking to each other? Not really.

I agree, but the question posed in this thread is: Should people who DO speak proper English be ridiculed?

[RealityCheck]

. . . the question posed in this thread is: Should people who DO speak proper English be ridiculed?

We have a winner.

C'mon up, Dookie Joe . . . that reading comprehension card is full.

[vetalalumni]

Stanley Crouch aside, linguist and author John H. McWhorter provides insight into the subject matter of this thread. Two books in particular are worth reading.

In "Losing the race: self-sabotage in Black America", he describes why "black english is not bad english".

In "The word on the street: debunking the myth of 'pure' standard English", McWhorter goes further.

Neilr, thanks for posting Motto.

[canuck]

Speak white is what anglos used to say to french canadians not so long ago when they had more control over us.
Look it up in Wikipedia---
Black people will always be on the wrong side of the fence anyways, they cant walk, they cant talk like the proper beings they should be. Its a good thing they got riddm. Yessuh they can sho dance it up and sing an' all.
I think its a bit of a shame that 43 years past the riots, black americans who for the most part tried to escape the lack of opportunity in southern states, coming up with their language and customs, have to be told to or not to speak white by anyone. How long?
Grandsons and granddaughters of slaves have to be reminded that the road has been long and hard. Look at Haiti. The people speak creole which to a french speaker is easily thought of as an inferior language but it is all about who says so. Haiti was crushed after its independence and had to repay a debt to France equivalent to 21 billion euros from 1825 to 1942. I guess haitians are the ones to blame for outrageous poverty and a neglected french language...
Speak white, speak black but from the heart...

[LeannaM]

I think people can speak however they want around each other, but we all need to ability to speak properly if we are going to succeed in life. Most jobs will require you to be understood and respected. If you don't speak clearly and properly, you will probably get less respect in the business world. Is that right? No. We should respect people anyway. But that's just the way it is. Speak however you want in your leisure time, but on the job, you have to be able to speak how society demands you speak. Generally immigrants have to learn to speak English somewhat clearly if they expect to go to college or get an upper-level job. It's the same with anybody. If you can't be understood you won't be respected.

Speaking clearly, have at least average typing skills, being able to write an essay, and being able to think critically are some things we need to learn when we are young. Almost any degree you get now will require some writing skills. Most classes will require at least some kind of essay or article summary or something. Even my history classes required us to write papers. Typing wasn't as important once upon a time. It is pretty important now. If you can't type, your work will be seriously slowed. Lacking any of these skills can really hamper us later on. And these are things we need to teach our kids. Otherwise we're handicapping them later in life.

I don't think the issue is whether we speak properly all the time. Nobody does. But we must have the ability to speak properly. And if we don't teach our kids how to be understood, we're doing them a disservice.

[canuck]

Yes Leanna, you are right about communicating with clarity. Some have more skill in this than others, it comes naturally to some and not others. It is important for people to get their message across but it is also important for folks to listen and not ostracize an interlocutor on account of grammar or diction. i enjoy having someone axe me for something as much as exmotowner does.

But if we all to come togevuh, we should maybe put some of that vernacular in our business communications. I have a copy of an old Saturday Evening Post from 1920 where Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben had pretty stereotypical speech directed to a white audience, it didnt seem to matter then that it had been concocted by affluent white males as stereotypes go. Their speech was marketable and that is what counts; the zeros at the end of them numbers. Poor whites are white trash and poor blacks is niggas,[/U] dig? And that is being polite.