Better Concept _Give abandoned homes to Undocumented Aliens

[Bearinabox]

Regarding the original post of this thread: I don't see what benefit giving houses to undocumented aliens, in particular, would have. I imagine that they, like most immigrants, look for some combination of the following two things when deciding where in America to settle: A cohesive ethnic community where some of their friends and family may have already moved, and some sort of economic opportunity. They're not going to move to a shit-poor city with double-digit unemployment just because someone offers them a free house, and if they did want to move here, the housing prices wouldn't be much of a deterrent. If we want to attract immigrants here, illegal or otherwise, we have to have jobs.

[oladub]

Ocean wrote, "Do you know any bank robbers? Are there extra banks sitting around with money? Dumb analogy. There are thousands of empty houses that need to be fixed and sitting and not producing any tax revenue- that's why YOUR TAXES are 3 or 4 times what they are in many other states- including Texas."

"Do I have some degree that allows me to practice law. Yes ! [[ IU JD and a few grad degrees) In fact I have been practicing since 1979"

It shouldn't matter if I know any bank robbers or illegal aliens. What should matter is that both activities are illegal. Since you claim to be an attorney advocating rewarding one sort of illegal activity, perhaps you could explain why some laws are meant to be enforced while others aren't. Bank robbers make money disappear from banks without passbooks. Illegal aliens make good paying union jobs disappear turn into something less. Case in point-

Ocean 4/18 9:20pm wrote, "Undocumented workers from Mexico and Central America, would love those homes and they are really adept at fixing them up. Soon Latin restaurants [[very tasty and reasonable) would spring up and there would be cheap carpenters would be available and the building materials stores would have lots of business."

That's not appealing to union carpenters. You are suggesting that it will be a good thing if 'cheap carpenters' replace union carpenters. That might be good for California attorneys but it isn't so good for anyone with a decent paying job. Why not just open the border for anyone who wants to work here? Then we could have cheap autoworkers, cheap tradesmen, cheap everything not protected by licenses and professional trade organizations. We could eliminate the middle class and be more like some third world hole. Great plan.

[softailrider]

The city workers probably already have a home and they know the city too well to want to live in many of the areas.

Undocumented workers from Mexico and Central America, would love those homes and they are really adept at fixing them up. Soon Latin restaurants [[very tasty and reasonable) would spring up and there would be cheap carpenters would be available and the building materials stores would have lots of business.

When the INS hears about it -they would increase their presence in the area - pouring some needed federal funds. Of course they won't dare enter the nastier neighborhoods but pity the poor undocumented alien caught at a Tiger Game or in Ren Center!

Many of you have little experience with undocumented people,however I have represented them for many years and lived in areas where they are prevalent. They are the nicest people and commit way less crime than Americans in their same economic class.

As for those who hate them- observe. Many who want the aliens out are at the bottom rung of the socio -economic ladder. They didn't bother to get an education and yes their jobs may be threatened by someone who will work harder. Look at how these "haters" write- many are illiterate.

Let's be really honest here -Detroit if you saw the Pew Research has 8% of the nation who thinks its a good place to live and 88% or so opposed, finishing dead last. Texans, Californians etc are not going to move up to Detroit-ever..

Why not get some really nice people who would think those $500 houses are palaces. People who's neighborhoods would be safe.. and clean.

With all due respect, there's plenty of those illegal types already in the southwest side of Detroit. I wouldn't exactly call the southwest area safe or clean. My brother lives down there [[Hubbard Farms- trying to convince him to move) Living with security bars, security cameras, guns and dogs isn't my idea of a safe neighborhood.

[SWMAP]

With all due respect, there's plenty of those illegal types already in the southwest side of Detroit. I wouldn't exactly call the southwest area safe or clean. My brother lives down there [[Hubbard Farms- trying to convince him to move) Living with security bars, security cameras, guns and dogs isn't my idea of a safe neighborhood.

Not too many people in Hubbard Farms living with guns and dogs. I hate the "down there" reference. I guess you live "up there" with the better class?
"Down there" gave the world Jack White, profiled yet again yesterday for his brilliance in the New York Times. And the son of my neighbors is heading up the Michigan Insurance Office and making progress on denying insuance carriers the right to do business in Michigan if they write rates based on credit scores. Wondering how many leaders in the arts and commerce and philanthropy are coming out of your neighborhood that is so much better.

I don't live in Hubbard Farms but just west of that neighborhood. It isn't a paradise, but I can tell you that my Mexican neighbors are excellent. They are hard-working, love flowers and their property. They make very good and reliable neighbors. Their kids are going to school [[mostly) and in two generations they have weaned themselves from public help. And that is way more than we can say for many Americans born here who have been on the public dole sfor many generations. Overall, the SW side is way more interesting and industrious than the East Side. Obviously, SW Detroit is helped by its ethnicity, documented or otherwise.

I will say that as they absorb white American values of consumerism and non-judgemental morality, the Mexican-American community does have to deal with more criminal activity and illegitimacy. Exposure to mainstream American values is changing that community - and not always for the better.

[kathy2trips]

...while American Citizens go homeless. Does the irony escape you, here?

What other country rewards lawbreakers and punishes good people like we do? Illegal aliens: go back from where you came and WAIT IN LINE at your local embassy like millions now, and before you. Citizens, demand an economic environment conducive to business growth, especially manufacturing.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to ask where these illegals would work, since it's ILLEGAL for them to work. So they're breaking 2 laws: they're here and they're working. Don't you think there are citizens of the USA who would love a free house and an instant job?

[gnome]

Attachment 717

Damn Squatters. Where's Ripley when you need her?

[Ocean2026]

yes they are illegal - but so is jaywalking. One has to think outside the box just a bit. Does the law make sense for Detroit? Segregating schools was legal even when I was young- did it make sense?

I haven't seen any ideas here that might help Detroit- when a place is last among people's preference,has the largest drop in home prices, has the educated people leaving behind the number one crime area in the country, to politicians so crooked they make the national news- maybe something radical is in order-instead of just complaining when someone attempts an idea.

[Locke09]

I'm not taking any sides, but stop equating illegal aliens with jaywalking. Yes, people jaywalk. [[I don't.) But the government doesn't support their jaywalking by posting signs that say "Go ahead dart across whenever you feel like you can beat the traffic".

[6nois]

Ocean have you ever stopped to think that maybe something radical is already happening here. Organically of its own will.

The more I have thought about your idea the less it makes sense. Detroit is a large city 140 sq miles, with a shrinking population. How will Detroits economy support more people who will not be able to find work. What if rather than trying to grow Detroit through traditional means [[i.e. bring new residents) we went about it in a non traditional way. What if we allowed the city to shrink to a manageable size in a strategic way. Made life better for those that live here. And then court growth.

You chastise us for not coming up with plans. But I argue that your plans aren't the most thought threw and based in the true reality of Detroit.

[Bearinabox]

yes they are illegal - but so is jaywalking. One has to think outside the box just a bit. Does the law make sense for Detroit? Segregating schools was legal even when I was young- did it make sense?

I haven't seen any ideas here that might help Detroit- when a place is last among people's preference,has the largest drop in home prices, has the educated people leaving behind the number one crime area in the country, to politicians so crooked they make the national news- maybe something radical is in order-instead of just complaining when someone attempts an idea.

You're "attempting" an idea? Do you seriously think that posting preachy, condescending comments about this city and its people on an online message board from 1,500 miles away qualifies as "attempting an idea?"

[LodgeDodger]

yes they are illegal - but so is jaywalking. One has to think outside the box just a bit. Does the law make sense for Detroit? Segregating schools was legal even when I was young- did it make sense?

I haven't seen any ideas here that might help Detroit- when a place is last among people's preference,has the largest drop in home prices, has the educated people leaving behind the number one crime area in the country, to politicians so crooked they make the national news- maybe something radical is in order-instead of just complaining when someone attempts an idea.

Jay-walking compared to people who are in this country illegally is a pathetic comparison.

You may not have 'seen any ideas here that might help Detroit'. That's your completely uninformed opinion. You're one of the first to state Detroit is the last among people's preferences. At this time, it may not be trendy, but it's our home. What's happened here is the culmination of decades of neglect, criminal activity, and exploitation. Changes and improvements will not happen overnight. We know your kind--you want instantaneous change. It doesn't happen because you have what you believe to be a grand idea. It's going to take us years, lots of dedication, and smart planning to get this city back on track. I can almost guarantee you won't be around to make any of it happen. In a couple of months you'll move on to give some other undesirable city your enlightened views.
People like yourself, who find their ideas to have more merit than those who really are the experts, are off-putting. We live here, we bust our asses to make a difference, we care. We're in a fight for our lives here. Give us some respect.

I believe you were the person who asked about Woodward Avenue some time ago? That really told me just how clueless you were about the Detroit area. You didn't know a damned thing about Woodward Avenue! Were you to set foot in this city, you would realize what a stupid question that was.

I welcome any ideas from people who genuinely care. I welcome ideas from anyone who treats forum posters with respect. I welcome ideas from people who know this area.

Do yourself a favor, start treating some of the other posters with more respect.

[PCE]

Do yourself a favor, start treating some of the other posters with more respect.

Pretty much sums it up Ocean

[Detroitej72]

While I'm not in favor of giving houses to illegals, I, living in Hamtramck, do notice that immigrants have done wonders for restoring the old housing stock.

The flat I'm renting was completely refinished, new drywall, beautiful hardwood floors, and new windows and electrical wiring by my landlord who hails from Albania. Two doors down, his cousin has gutted the interior, and completely rebuilt a house that was lacking all plumbing and walls.[[the studs were visible, as there was a fire many years ago)

I look across the street at three homes beautifully restored by other immigrant families, and I watch how they take pride in their property. It never ceases to amaze me how they reuse materials that others would think of as scaps to fix things.

At the same time, there is a house a few doors down that needed a paint job about ten years ago, and is now almost void of paint. The resident has lived there since their parents died, and they have done nothing to keep it up, save for cutting the grass twice a year.

My point is, many immigrants seem to do much to keep their homes up, better sometimes than native-born folks, and I would welcome them into my neigborhood with open arms as long as they are legal. Their workmanship and skills are just what Detroit needs, along with some blood, sweat and tears.

[stnfrnt]

Ocean2026.......Yesterday I spent several hours pulling up the links you posted and trying to figure out just what the hell PEW has got to do with any type of real data input on any issues. They do absolutely no research on anything! They are nothing more than a "clearing house" for other "groups of researchers" who do telephone surveys and opinion polls. They claim to be a charitable organization that bankrolls other research groups and guides them in establishing guidelines for their own telephone surveys and opinion polls. This type of "research" is tantamount to nothing more than a popularity contest using methods of information collecting and reporting that leave too much room for manipulating and pre-determining results.If you want President Obama to get a low performence rating, just ask X number of Ayrian Brotherhood members if they think he's doing a good job running the country.
My suggestion to use the homes in question for homeless veterans and other American citizens seems to have escaped your counterpoint response. Why is that? Using that plan, especially involving the homeless veterans, can and will invite Federal funding. There are grants and subsidies already in place for just such a plan, and Congress has made it clear that they do not want to see any veteran homeless. That's what I would advocate. Also noticeable by it's absence is your response to the fact [[not an opinion) that California alone is $38-$50 billion dollars in the hole because the cost of state services provided to illegal aliens cannot be recovered through the taxes they pay. For those of you who fantasize about the second generation illegal alien being some sort of silver bullet/shining example, I refer you to the attached photos showing second generation illegal aliens "going for the education".
Maybe, sometime in the near future, we could discuss the criminal segment [[more second generation saviors?) of the illegal alien population, and how their activities affect entire Police Department budgets, the costs of incarceration and deportation, the property destruction dollar amount caused by taggers alone, and maybe take into consideration the terror and intimidation tactics employed in "taking over" a neighborhood after tiring of fixing up their house.
My M.O. is stating facts not opinions. I fail to see anything "macho" about wondering if you would take a moment to shove the PEW research results up your culo, especially after doing the research on those guys, and I'm hiding right here in sunny Southern California among the bastions of illegal aliens. My name is Larry Merryman. I'm at 11301 Wilshire Blvd. Bldg 217 Rm 231-2 Los Angeles, CA. 90073
Mailing address; P.O.#84362 Los Angeles, CA 90073.

Note flag arrangement on pole in group photo.Attachment 740

Attachment 741

Attachment 742

[9mile&seneca]

Many bank robbers are really nice people. Some work very hard to get through massive concrete and steel. Why waste the talent of these hard-working really nice people? Instead of punishing them, they should be given bank accounts and jobs at banks. They would love those banks and fix them! Then they could all be productive taxpayers and raise children who could someday work for Goldman-Sachs and presidents. Get over it ! Almost every study shows that ILLEGAL bank robbers acceptance is clearly a great benefit for their kids education so they don't have to do the same jobs that their parents did.

Which do you prefer? Banks with holes in their vaults or bankers' families sitting on their porches chatting with neighbors? When the Senate Banking Committee hears about it -they would increase their presence in the area - pouring some needed federal funds. Of course they won't dare enter the nastier neighborhoods but pity the poor bankrobber caught in a bank vault!

Worthy of P.J. O'Rourke, Oladub. Wonderful

[Ocean2026]

stnfnt- Here's pew research website http://pewresearch.org/

They are non -partisan.
1. Who cares if they are a clearinghouse for other research- the question is do you have any specific problem with their methodology?

2. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Detroit would not rank last among preferred places to move?

3. Does the fact Detroit has lost population more rapidly than any other city over the past few years [[ maybe even decades) help you understand that gee just maybe Pew is correct? [[ In social science terms -taking this type of info - along with surveys and other data is called triangulation- many methods pointing to the same result) People vote with their feet.

You may have spend several hours - playing with your "culo" but in that time you should be able to come up with something substantial.


----------

As for the other posters idea about giving houses to veterans -you bet! That and city workers deserve them first. My problem with that plan is that many vets and workers already have houses - probably in better shape than these and they might be more picky about which neighborhood they live in.

[Bigb23]

Stonefront's post stated

My suggestion to use the homes in question for homeless veterans and other American citizens seems to have escaped your counterpoint response. Why is that? Using that plan, especially involving the homeless veterans, can and will invite Federal funding.

You're stating veterans that already have nice homes. Pretty clear to me.

[stnfrnt]

Bigb23......howdy. Good to see you here. I need a little clarity on your last post. Are you refering to Ocean2026's last three lines in post #41? The response where he seems to be in favor of giving homes to veterans but finds fault with that plan because many vets already have houses, etc......! I would have a problem with that plan myself. A huge problem. Except that is NOT the plan I proposed. Maybe you could shed a little light here.

[Bigb23]

You stated what you stated, Stone, and thats what I referred to. Abadoned homes should be made somewhat livable, and given to homeless vets living on the streets. And there are plenty of them.

What he stated was this

My problem with that plan is that many vets and workers already have houses - probably in better shape than these

I'd rather see homes like this re-habbed by homeless veterans too, than by somebody who crossed our borders illegally.

[stnfrnt]

Ocean2026..........I have the Pew Research Report on Social and Demographic Trends: January 29, 2009, open in another window here, so I may be referring to it from time to time to state my positions accurately. I hope this agrees with you.
According to the report, the city at the top of the list of places where people say they want to live is Denver. The city at the bottom of the list is Detroit, as you clearly and correctly stated earlier. As you know, the ranking of each city in the list [[a total of thirty) was determined by conducting telephone surveys and public opinion polls. PEW research then consolidated the data and published a report.
I have a few "specific problems with their methodology" that I would like to address and present for your consideration. Should you feel a need to respond, I would ask only that you try not to leave out key phrases or words [[r.e. homeless veterans) when referencing or quoting from previous posts. I felt like the AFLAC duck there for a minute after I read your last reply.
1) Right off the top, there is a glaring inconsistency in the report that goes something like this: "Americans are leaving the Northeast and Midwest in favor of the South and the West." Now, the graph illustrating this "movement" [[displayed right next to that statement on the web page) shows us the "% who say they wantto live in this city or it's surrounding metropolitan area." Oh, crap! Now I'm confused again! Which is it? First we are told that Americans are leaving their home cities, and I'm sure some are, and moving to the South and the West. Then we get this "well, actually, this is really only the % of people who would like to live in cities in the South and the West." WTF? Terribly misleading.
2) The report states: "These findings emerge from a wide ranging telephone survey of a nationally representative sample of 2,260 adults conducted October 3-19, 2008." Do I really have to explain the "specific problem I have with the methodology" used here? Okay, I will! How in the hell can I put any credence in a nationally representative sample of anything when the nation has 304,059,724 people in it, and only 2,260 of them were asked where they would prefer to live.
Whaaat?! This is supposed to mean something?
3) a. I do not have any evidence that would show that Detroit would not rank last among preferred places to move.
b. I do not have any evidence that would show that Denver would rank first among preferred places to move. [[Denver ranked #1 on the list)
c. Moot point
4) Survey results, regardless of who conducts them, are terribly misleading, rarely, if ever, find the true pulse of the people, and can be too easily manipulated/slanted and geared to enhance ulterior motives. An answer to any survey question depends on three major factors.
1) Who is asked.
2) What is asked
3) How the question is asked
I couldn't find any of that information anywhere in the PEW report. I doubt I would find that kind of information in a survey report done by any research group. It happens, occasionally. It just didn't happen with this group. This is a major "methodology problem."
5) The latest statistics I could find concerning your alarming "Exodus from Detroit" mantra show that the sky is really not falling on Detroit after all. There is no need to panic or rush in and save the day with a shitload of illegal aliens. Granted, there has been some movement. The whole state of Michigan lost 46,368 residents, seemingly all at once. But, what the hell? There were 10,049,790 hearty souls that seemed to absorb that loss fairly well. Detroit, alone, had 918,849 people going into your doomsday scenario. 1,797 made it out alive. The other 916,952 inhabitants are still there. Maybe some people don't want to move to Detroit. I don't know. The Pew Report, or any report like it, could show me nothing remotely substantial. Smoke and mirrors. REAL NUMBERS DON'T LIE!
There appears to be an alarming number of people who didn't leave Detroit. Don't you wonder why?
One of the comments directed to your article in the San Antonio Press-News [[an extremely well written piece, I might add. nice work) brought up an interesting thought that has crossed my mind several times before. You are an impostor. In reality, you are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration, and this whole thread is a charade designed to stir up some like minded fellows, and gals, so in the future you'll know who you can turn to for support when the time comes for you to "out" yourself and make your move. It's either that, or you're hopelessly delusional. Concerning these abandoned houses, I have given you an extremely viable, workable, doable plan for their use. I have presented you with credible facts to refute "pro" arguments.There are zero benefits to be gained by Americans by allowing anything remotely connected. to your proposal to come to fruition. You have not presented an economic argument for illegal aliens being in this country. It can't be done. The second generation thing you seem to keep pushing is making me embarassed for you. Look at the pictures, read the numbers. do the math. Please. ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE NOT HERE TO BECOME AMERICANS! They could give a rat's ass about America. [[r.e. photos-my #39). They're only here for the money, and being poor does not allow you to violate our soverignty. Yup, it's all about the money, baby. It always is. Hey, you Detroiters. Did you know that illegal aliens send money back home to the tune of $6-$8 billion a year? I wonder how many cars that would by.

A. If you want to come to this country but you don't speak English, then you stand and wait at the border until you learn how.
B. Retired Marine snipers and other expert marksman should be stationed in towers all along the border with strict orders to not fire upon or shoot any Southbound illegal aliens.

[cheddar bob]

They could give a rat's ass about America. [[r.e. photos-my #39).

You're using a few pictures of high school kids at an emotional protest on a single day as an example of how a whole group of millions of aliens feel? You say that surveys don't "find the true pulse of the people", but then expect us to believe that a couple of snapshots of angry teenagers does?

A. If you want to come to this country but you don't speak English, then you stand and wait at the border until you learn how.

But a signnificant number of people that legally apply to come here don't speak english. Why do you demand that everyone talk like you? I hate to break it to you but millions of people don't speak english in this country and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Ocean2026]

Ok you made some decent points. I did unintentionally leave out "homeless" in the veterans. You are correct and I never disagreed that Homeless Vets should have priority for housing. no problem.

PEW may not be perfect - over 2200 is a good sample though - for a presidential poll 600 done correctly is good enough for a 3% margin of error.

I strongly disagree that illegal aliens don't want to become Americans- look at all the 2nd gen. Americans many of their parents were illegal. Some don't but I would say more do.

I also disagree with your reasoning that 918,000 Detroit residents managed to stick it out as if that shows something. I remember when it was $1.9 million and many would argue it is below 900,000. Remember most places grow- people have kids -those kids have kids. The million decline is probably an all time US record aside from Katrina and other disasters. You are saying the 918,000 left demonstrate that many like Detroit. I would say - many can't move -they have no where to go- no job - and they may be here because of family. The Detroit News in a thread on here showed that it wasn't retirees moving it was the educated and employed.

Attracting immigrants [[ and many will be undocumented) is just one of my ideas. I've been around them and speak their language and think they are a good thing- politicians speak against them for one reason -they can't vote. Detroit should - like Texas make entering a residence for the purpose of scapping, a first degree felony punishable by a 99 year sentence- Screw the criminals! Finally houses should be taxed at market value - with a min $1000 a year valuation. More people will be willing to buy if they know they will be taxes fairly.

Anyway pretty good discussion - thank you.

[MCP-001]

Better Idea: Instead of encouraging illegal aliens to take over abandoned homes, why not enourage them to LEGALLY obtain citizenship, then they can spend as much time as they want fixing up homes w/o worrying about ICE detaining them and kicking them out of our country?

[SWMAP]

Because often they are denied legal entrance.

I think this excerpt from the New York Times yesterday by Tamar Jacoby about proposed legislation to assist the American-born children of undocumented workers, makes some good points, but they won't narrow, bigoted minds:

"First, immigrants – the vast majority of immigrants — bring drive and skills to America. The Dream kids are stars — strivers of special promise. But they’re far from the only immigrants, legal and illegal, who help make the country prosperous and vital. Two-thirds of the students in U.S. university computer science and engineering programs are foreign-born. So are 25 percent of doctors and nurses. Immigrants hold a quarter of U.S. patents.
And even at the bottom of the economy, foreign workers’ willingness to take any job, anywhere, helps the economy run more efficiently. Because they are different than most Americans, either more or less educated, immigrants complement rather than compete with us — which makes us more productive and grows the economic pie for everyone.
Second, immigrants are assimilating, and we ought to reward them for it. The kids who would be covered under the Dream Act have mastered English. They’ve graduated from high school, often in families and neighborhoods where that’s difficult and discouraged. They’ve learned enough about America not just to fit in, but to succeed here. And many are willing to risk their lives for their new country.
But millions of newcomers, legal and illegal, are taking similar steps — although we do virtually nothing to help or encourage them. On the contrary, if they entered the country illegally — responding to our mixed signals, half-forbidding but half-inviting them to come do work we need done –- we bar them from the very steps we say we want most from them: moving up the socioeconomic ladder and becoming fully participating members of society.
The lesson is obvious: Our fear and misplaced moralism are blinding us to our own interests."

[stnfrnt]

Chedder Bob......Welcome. You bring up a very good point about only a few photos being represenative of how a nation of illegal aliens feels. Image posting limits prevent me from bringing to you the volume of incidents, similar to the Montibello High School "angry teenagers" demonstration, that is recorded. This is not an isolated incident, and I don't expect a few photograps to have much impact. Your point is well made. This is but one example of the illegal aliens' "don't give a rat's ass about America" attitude out of tens of thousands of other displays of disrespect for American values, traditions, laws and customs that can be witnessed every day. Graffiti tells me I'm a "puta gringo [[sp)." "Viva Mexico" is real popular. "Mexico por todos el tiempo" and other slogans don't indicate a real patriotic American value. One must ask "Why are they doing this? What is it about this country that drives them to disregard everything millions of Americans have sacrificed, fought and died for to get us where we are? I'm aware of the fact that millions of people in this country don't speak English. I'm also aware of the fact that there is nothing I can do about it. But why don't they speak our [[my) language? I thought they wanted to be Americans. There may be nothing I can do about it, but there is everything they can do about it. I just don't see it happening on a grand scale, and it makes me sad.