Preservation Wayne theater tour question[[GISTOK)?

[Stosh]

Stosh, in the past [[before major loft development took place downtown) Preservation Wayne offered the public some Loft Development Workshops. There was a lot of interest by developers and these helped spur interest in loft development downtown in recent years.

True, that has happened. And some lofts have been built. What did that do for Preservation Wayne's bottom line? Or their core vision? These developers made some serious coin developing these properties before the bottom fell out of the market. wish that they would have donated some of that to the group, or toward others. Kind of like a pay it forward type of deal.

PW hasn't gotten into the bricks-and-mortar issues as some conservancy groups have, but they have done a lot to promote the surviving historic fabric of the city. We volunteered and cleaned out the city owned National Theatre on a weekend back in 2000. There must have been 20 tons of debris in the interior [[lots of fallen ruined plasterwork). And there are countless other projects that we've contributed manpower towards.

And the building still sits vacant. Why? An admirable job cleaning that mess out 10 years ago, but come on, there has got to be a use for that place by now....

PW also heavily promoted the surviving mansions on Ferry Ave. Today, with the help of the DIA [[and their 4 mansion Inn on Ferry Ave.) as well as other developers building quality infill housing, that street looks better than it has in decades.

DIA put that together, right? And you guys promoted them heavily. Safe to say that would have been a hit regardless of PW participation. And who's money put that infill up? I like the looks of Ferry Street, but there's things to be said for involvement from others, like the DIA. If it weren't for their involvement, would that have happened?

PQZ bitches about the grousing on this forum... but only a small fraction of members here are PW members.

Another issue is that the Detroit preservation community is rather fragmented... there's PW, Cityscape, DAADS [[Detroit Area Art Deco Society) and other smaller groups. It would be nice to combine efforts under say.... a Detroit Conservacy Group... but that's not my call.

It should be your call. Really. These various groups are in existence only for the self-interest of each group. It reminds me of that picture contest on this site:
http://declaredetroit.wordpress.com/gallery/

If I were to make a caption for that, it would be "Demand Better Preservation". Or "Unify or Destroy", with a nice pic of the Lafeyette building behind it. It's that serious. These groups need to get off their combined asses and actually DO something besides whine about the lack of preservation.

The grousing on this forum is from a whole lot of people that, for many reasons, are deservedly bitter about the half-hearted preservation efforts of the preservation groups. Having a real regional conservancy would be nice. But probably not in our lifetimes, with these groups butting heads, not at all possible.

[Gistok]

Stosh, I don't have time for a lot of details... but the DIA was only one of the many groups [[besides PW) that were involved with Ferry St. There was also Charfoos & Cristiansen, Merrill-Palmer Institute, and many others. The DIA just happens to be the most obvious group. There's also a Caribbean emigre [[can't remember his name) who has been doing a lot of the development on the blocks farther east on Ferry Ave.

I agree that bringing many of the groups previously mentioned together would be nice...

The National Theatre is still [[last time I checked) owned by the city... so I can't comment further on that one.

Quote: "The grousing on this forum is from a whole lot of people that, for many reasons, are deservedly bitter about the half-hearted preservation efforts of the preservation groups. Having a real regional conservancy would be nice. But probably not in our lifetimes, with these groups butting heads, not at all possible. "

Not true, no one is butting heads as you suggest. They have different agendas.... and most of the grousing on this forum is against the preservation efforts of the city, not against preservationists, except for PQZ, who used to work for the DEGC, and finds it hard to post with civility.

Lodgerdodger, this thread has veered off course for too long, no point in letting it get to you personally.

[Gistok]

Stosh, one last thing..

In a perfect world, it would be nice if all the Detroit preservation/historic/booster groups could somehow come under an umbrella organization. I've always had the [[silly) dream that it would be great if all of these organizations, plus others such as the Riverfront Conservacy and Parade Co., etc... all co-located in the Broadhead Naval Armory [[next to Belle Isle bridge), which is city owned and is currently empty.

That way, at least having the different groups in the same building would make communication and cooperation much better.

The Broadhead Armory is a wonderful Art Moderne building that has the finest collection of Great Depression era WPA artwork in the state of Michigan... both in plaster/fresco and woodwork. It would be a great use for a wonderful building that has no current future and is sitting empty. It was designed by the husband of Pewabic Pottery founder Mary Chase Stratton... William Stratton.

[PQZ]

I think it would come as quite a surprise to Sue Mosey and UCCA that PW and the DIA were responsible for the Inn on Ferry Street. It is obvious Gistok has no clue about how the development actually happened.

Stosh: Those are exactly the observations I have made quietly for the last twelve years. I tried first politely and then later more urgently to convey those concerns for ten years to preservation leaders...

I no longer need to be polite about the issue because I am no longer in Detroit, no longer have to be concerned about potentially needing partnerships with people or the fact that many preservationsists are good firends with friends of mine and than many were more than passing casual aquaintances.

I may come across like a prick these days but the reality is that the preservation community - as expressed through PW and other orgainzations listed above - are ineffectual and, more worryingly, oblivious to the fact that they are ineffectual. While others knob-slobber over an annual theater tour, I demand and expect better. And being polite about it got me nowhere....

[Stosh]

I think it would come as quite a surprise to Sue Mosey and UCCA that PW and the DIA were responsible for the Inn on Ferry Street. It is obvious Gistok has no clue about how the development actually happened.

Stosh: Those are exactly the observations I have made quietly for the last twelve years. I tried first politely and then later more urgently to convey those concerns for ten years to preservation leaders...

I no longer need to be polite about the issue because I am no longer in Detroit, no longer have to be concerned about potentially needing partnerships with people or the fact that many preservationsists are good firends with friends of mine and than many were more than passing casual aquaintances.

I may come across like a prick these days but the reality is that the preservation community - as expressed through PW and other orgainzations listed above - are ineffectual and, more worryingly, oblivious to the fact that they are ineffectual. While others knob-slobber over an annual theater tour, I demand and expect better. And being polite about it got me nowhere....

Great. Then obviously, then, why don't you outline how you see how this all should be done.

If you had free rein to do form a group that would be effectual in preservation in Detroit, what would it be? Lay out the business plan, since you have no intentions of coming back here. I'd be interested in hearing how that shakes out.

[Gistok]

Stosh, don't bother... he's been going "Mommy Dearest - wire metal coathangers" on this forum for the past decade [[even when he lived in the D)... as can be seen by this thread... which was a simple question about theatre tours...

I'm done here...

[PQZ]

Stosh, don't bother... he's been going "Mommy Dearest - wire metal coathangers" on this forum for the past decade [[even when he lived in the D)... as can be seen by this thread... which was a simple question about theatre tours...

I'm done here...

Yes Stosh, don't bother....just listen to Gistok and the Gang. They have done an EXCELLENT job so far....

Or you could look up a thread I started a few months ago about some modest suggestions of how the preservation community could move forward to something more proactive and less reactive and shrill.

Gistok is just pissy because I seem to think that if you want to save buildings you should do more than print t-shirts and play with LEgo as an adult.

Also note that I have nothing against the theatre tours. I think they are great and need to continue. I did not weigh in until folks started blowing sunshine and butterflies about the tours themselves being great preservation activities. If a tour is the standard for good preservation activism, you might as well save the time and money now and plow everything in to the river.

[LodgeDodger]

Yes Stosh, don't bother....just listen to Gistok and the Gang. They have done an EXCELLENT job so far....

Or you could look up a thread I started a few months ago about some modest suggestions of how the preservation community could move forward to something more proactive and less reactive and shrill.

Gistok is just pissy because I seem to think that if you want to save buildings you should do more than print t-shirts and play with LEgo as an adult.

Also note that I have nothing against the theatre tours. I think they are great and need to continue. I did not weigh in until folks started blowing sunshine and butterflies about the tours themselves being great preservation activities. If a tour is the standard for good preservation activism, you might as well save the time and money now and plow everything in to the river.

I take it you're saying we should all just forget about the tours and go home? Yeah, I like your spirit! Glad you moved.

[PQZ]

I take it you're saying we should all just forget about the tours and go home? Yeah, I like your spirit! Glad you moved.

Now darling thats not at all what I am saying. Note the rest of the post in which I say that the theatre tours are just fine and serve a purpose. But if that is where you end and don't go any further, which is what Gistok and the Gang are doing, well, then nothing changes. "Demand better action from preservationists" should be one of the Detroit Declare thingies.....

[buildingsofdetroit]

I wonder if any offer was made by the DEGC to allow anyone to salvage any parts of the Lafayette Building? Those beautiful Fleur-de-lis on top of the building would have been nice to salvage.

You have no idea how hard I tried to save those. I called up Joel Stone at the DHS to see if he could go through city channels to get them. He couldn't. I had Pres Wayne try. No dice. I called Adamo and finally made progress until I was told that I needed:
1) My own crew.
2) My own equipment.
3) $5 million coverage in insurance.
4) Pay Adamo for salvage rights.
5) Had to have it all lined up and done in a week.

Sad thing is that the Adamo guy told me I was about the 25th person to call about the fleur-di-lis. You'd think with that kind of interest, maybe they'd know there was money to be made.
I also tried talking to Adamo crewmen onsite, including during the 4 a.m. collapses, and was told that after they fell 14 stories, there just wasn't much left of them. A shame.
But trust me, there was DEFINITELY an effort made to save them.

[buildingsofdetroit]

"Demand better action from preservationists" should be one of the Detroit Declare thingies.....

How can preservationists do anything when George Jackson refuses to sit down and talk with them let alone work with them? Some in the preservation community are a bit trigger happy, but there are many sane voices that just want to help. But they're not allowed to or they're ignored.

[Stosh]

I'm going to go by the seat of my pants in reference to the threar referenced by PQZ, since I had to actively go find the article and thread myself...

So I'm assuming that the thread is "A Modest Proposal" found in the HOF threads?

Despite the usual attacks on formatting [[crosspost to DYES solid block of text) I will attempt to distill the points made there:
Bullet points:
1.Stop screaming that DEGC and the City have no vision and have done no preservation activity
2.Compliment and recognize the dozens of projects that ARE preservation projects that are a direct result of the DDA / DEGC and other City efforts Рsuch as the 50+ historic buildings that received direct cash grants for fa̤ade restoration work.
3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively.
4.Smarten up about the realities of budget priorities
5.Earn a spot at the table and show value

Now, absolutely none of these points answers any of the question I posed earlier, which was:

If you had free rein to do form a group that would be effectual in preservation in Detroit, what would it be? Lay out the business plan, since you have no intentions of coming back here. I'd be interested in hearing how that shakes out.

Try and answer that when you figure it out. All of the above bullet points involve how the preservation community should suck up to the city, when in reality the preservation community should become something far more important, something the city should WANT to work with. It's all a matter of purpose, I believe.

But I get no answers from anyone here. Yet.

The tours serve a great purpose for those that know nothing of the city's heritage. These should remain for the educational value. I intend on going on maybe a couple this year, if time permits. The theatre tour interests me the most, although a tour of the ruined theatres alongside the restored would be a contrast in development in itself. Fostering outrage would be a great selling point in developing a consensus.

I was surprised in reading that the Packard plant was on PW's list of endangered sites. That, indicates a slight lack of focus IMHO. Then I actually tried to find the list of sites itself.. Impossible!
Does anyone have the 2009 list?

[Kathleen]

Found this list of PW's 2009 Most-Endangered Detroit Sites on an Urban Planet blog....posted 21 Oct 2009 by ZachariahDaMan [[URL was too long to even bother, but you can Google it!)

1. United Artist Building
2. Wurlitzer Building
3. Book Tower & Book Building
4. Wayne County Building
5. Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue
6. Baker's Keyboard Lounge
7. Michigan State Fairgrounds
8. Packard Plant
9. Woodward Avenue Presbyterian Church
10. Historic Fort Wayne

[Stosh]

Found this list of PW's 2009 Most-Endangered Detroit Sites on an Urban Planet blog....posted 21 Oct 2009 by ZachariahDaMan [[URL was too long to even bother, but you can Google it!)

1. United Artist Building
2. Wurlitzer Building
3. Book Tower & Book Building
4. Wayne County Building
5. Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue
6. Baker's Keyboard Lounge
7. Michigan State Fairgrounds
8. Packard Plant
9. Woodward Avenue Presbyterian Church
10. Historic Fort Wayne

Thanks Kathleen. Posts elsewhere led me to believe that this was a more inclusive list, not merely a top 10 one.

What I am more interested in them making available is the Detroit Historic Building Inventory which, from their website, may be interesting in scope. How this is used remains to be seen.
The link to the page is:
http://preservationwayne.org/buildings.php

[Fnemecek]

The credible organization that could not launch a basic website to collect donations in an eleven month span?

OTSC had the funds they needed from other sources. How does the fact that they didn't also solicit donations on their web site mean that they're not a credible organization?

Hell, the DEGC doesn't solicit donations are their web site either. Does this mean that their not a credible organization?

[Kathleen]

The National Trust for Historic Preservation puts out an annual list of its top 11 most-endangered sites. So PW does the same for Detroit.

[Gistok]

Stosh, the reason that the Packard Plant was put on the list was to show that some things are beyond the point of reasonable restoration... not that it should be restored. This very thing was brought up at the PW annual meeting.

Buildingsofdetroit... thanks for the info on the Fleur-de-lis.... kind of puts into perspective the difficulty that dealing with the city and its' demo folks, as far as allowing any form of salvagability of its' lost artistic heritage. The Madison-Lenox arch scenario all over again...

Stosh, PQZ likes to try to tweak my nose every so often with the LEGO mention... I wrote a 2,200 page collectors guide, as I am probably one of the leading experts on that fast growing collectible [[some LEGO have sold for over $4000 on EBAY).

[Stosh]

Stosh, the reason that the Packard Plant was put on the list was to show that some things are beyond the point of reasonable restoration... not that it should be restored. This very thing was brought up at the PW annual meeting.

Which by it's very inclusion on the list, shows how off base they really are on their priorities. Anybody with any sense at all knows that. Making symbolic statements is pretty useless to me. Give me a list with prioritized reasons WHY I should care, and HOW I can help? Is there any way they can do this?

Buildingsofdetroit... thanks for the info on the Fleur-de-lis.... kind of puts into perspective the difficulty that dealing with the city and its' demo folks, as far as allowing any form of salvagability of its' lost artistic heritage. The Madison-Lenox arch scenario all over again...

Saving archtectural elements is only worthwile if they are used in another public building. Not to be stashed away in somebody's apartment for their own private collection. at least in my book. I really cant say why they are being that way about the salvage ops, but I'd have to think there is something to be said about PQZ's theory about playing nice...

Stosh, PQZ likes to try to tweak my nose every so often with the LEGO mention... I wrote a 2,200 page collectors guide, as I am probably one of the leading experts on that fast growing collectible [[some LEGO have sold for over $4000 on EBAY).

Gee, you think? Who would have thought that?

[LodgeDodger]

Packard building number 10 is an incredibly important building in architectural history. This building was architect Albert Kahn's first steel-reinforced concrete factory. It would be criminal not to have it listed on the endangered buildings list.

[Stosh]

Packard building number 10 is an incredibly important building in architectural history. This building was architect Albert Kahn's first steel-reinforced concrete factory. It would be criminal not to have it listed on the endangered buildings list.

Which one is building 10? This one?

[Stosh]

While we were on the subject I figure you would enjoy a photo of building construction at the Packard plant from 1910.

Attachment 5389

[Stosh]

[McIPor]

I'm tired of hearing PW and Preservationists slammed for accomplishing nothing more than tours. First of all the majority of "preservationists" are volunteers, not paid staffers like some former Detroit residents on this board.

PW was responsible for the loft forums in the 90's together with the GDP that helped educate hundreds of local developers, bankers, architects, realtors, city officials [[when they bothered to come) and others on preservation successes in other cities, funding sources, tax credits and many other issues. PW brought the mayors of places like Charleston, Milwaukee, leaders from Denver Lodo, Cleveland, non profit developers like Artspace from Minn to speak to what turned into great crowds and a community of people who then did developments like Joel landy, Bob Slattery, Ric Guyer, Dave Dirita, JC Cataldo, Colin Hubbell and many others.

Many preservationists designated local historic districts like the Park Ave Historic District back in 1996 that made the renovations of buildings like the Kales possible.. Preservationists created the 1970 historic districts bill, the 1999 tax credit bill and recent 2008 enhancements. Without these, the tax credits that have made nearly all of the renovations possible wouldn't exist.

All accomplished by volunteers and staffs you can count on one hand. Many of these people got nothing in return for their time and effort, and many left town for greener, easier places to live. These were typically the same young, educated, people the city wants to attract.

Stop bashing the preservationists. They are the 20 - 35 year olds who are the future of the city.

[LodgeDodger]

I'm tired of hearing PW and Preservationists slammed for accomplishing nothing more than tours. First of all the majority of "preservationists" are volunteers, not paid staffers like some former Detroit residents on this board.

PW was responsible for the loft forums in the 90's together with the GDP that helped educate hundreds of local developers, bankers, architects, realtors, city officials [[when they bothered to come) and others on preservation successes in other cities, funding sources, tax credits and many other issues. PW brought the mayors of places like Charleston, Milwaukee, leaders from Denver Lodo, Cleveland, non profit developers like Artspace from Minn to speak to what turned into great crowds and a community of people who then did developments like Joel landy, Bob Slattery, Ric Guyer, Dave Dirita, JC Cataldo, Colin Hubbell and many others.

Many preservationists designated local historic districts like the Park Ave Historic District back in 1996 that made the renovations of buildings like the Kales possible.. Preservationists created the 1970 historic districts bill, the 1999 tax credit bill and recent 2008 enhancements. Without these, the tax credits that have made nearly all of the renovations possible wouldn't exist.

All accomplished by volunteers and staffs you can count on one hand. Many of these people got nothing in return for their time and effort, and many left town for greener, easier places to live. These were typically the same young, educated, people the city wants to attract.

Stop bashing the preservationists. They are the 20 - 35 year olds who are the future of the city.

Some are a few years older.

Nice pictures, Stosh. I don't believe that is building #10.

The endangered list? Those are sites suggested to PW. It began as a list compiled by surveying a number of businesses, organizations, and residents. It's not a PW "list of endangered sites".

I'm through with those who wish to bash PW. Thank you for your comments, Mc.

I'm a tour guide. I know the folks at PW. They're an honest, hard-working bunch. It's a pretty damned sad day when an organization and its volunteers are attacked by someone with an ulterior motive.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the specifics on the Loft Development Workshops MclPor!

Stosh, as for those Fleur De Lis that were on top of the Lafayette Building that no one was able to obtain... let me give you a background on architectural reuse...

Had you ever attended one of our Downtown Theatre Tours, you would have eventually gotten to the Gem/Century theatres. The owner of the attached theatres is named Chuck Forbes [[the figurative patron saint of the Detroit preservation community). Mr. Forbes also formerly owned the downtown YMCA and YWCA... which were about 13 stories [[or thereabouts) and were a block away from each other. They were taken from Mr. Forbes via Eminent Domain in order to build Comerica Park. But Mr. Forbes got a nice chunk of change for them, and stripped off many architectural details from these early 20th century buildings.

When he had the Gem/Century theatres moved 1,800 ft. [[so they would be out of the stadia footprint), he remodeled them with many of the architectural details from the 2 Y's. He took the balastrade from one of the building tops, and made an enclosure in front of his theatres out of it. He took other architectural details and incorporated them into his theatre forecourt. He took Pewabic Pottery tiles that lined one of the Y's swimming pool, and incorporated them into part of the interior of Century Theatre.

OK... now back to the Fleur-de-lis that lined the top of the Lafayette Building. That symbol is synonymous with French royalty... the same royalty that had Cadillac found French Detroit in 1701.

Salvaging those Fleur-de-lis could have added a nice historic and symbolic addition to Detroit to show off our French royal roots. They could have used them in landscaping the Riverwalk, or used them as an attractive feature added to the perimeter of Campus Martius... or any of hundreds of uses. Heck even if they were put into storage, it would have been preferable to having them pounded to rubble when the Lafayette Buildings walls came crashing down.

But because of the extreme difficulty and red tape in trying to salvage anything in Detroit [[as buildingsofdetroit and the other 25 folks who inquired with Adamo Demo can verify, and the failed attempt at getting the Madison-Lenox arch)... is there any wonder why the preservation community can't do salvage here as some complain??