Preservation Wayne theater tour question[[GISTOK)?

[Gistok]

Stosh, don't bother... he's been going "Mommy Dearest - wire metal coathangers" on this forum for the past decade [[even when he lived in the D)... as can be seen by this thread... which was a simple question about theatre tours...

I'm done here...

[PQZ]

Stosh, don't bother... he's been going "Mommy Dearest - wire metal coathangers" on this forum for the past decade [[even when he lived in the D)... as can be seen by this thread... which was a simple question about theatre tours...

I'm done here...

Yes Stosh, don't bother....just listen to Gistok and the Gang. They have done an EXCELLENT job so far....

Or you could look up a thread I started a few months ago about some modest suggestions of how the preservation community could move forward to something more proactive and less reactive and shrill.

Gistok is just pissy because I seem to think that if you want to save buildings you should do more than print t-shirts and play with LEgo as an adult.

Also note that I have nothing against the theatre tours. I think they are great and need to continue. I did not weigh in until folks started blowing sunshine and butterflies about the tours themselves being great preservation activities. If a tour is the standard for good preservation activism, you might as well save the time and money now and plow everything in to the river.

[LodgeDodger]

Yes Stosh, don't bother....just listen to Gistok and the Gang. They have done an EXCELLENT job so far....

Or you could look up a thread I started a few months ago about some modest suggestions of how the preservation community could move forward to something more proactive and less reactive and shrill.

Gistok is just pissy because I seem to think that if you want to save buildings you should do more than print t-shirts and play with LEgo as an adult.

Also note that I have nothing against the theatre tours. I think they are great and need to continue. I did not weigh in until folks started blowing sunshine and butterflies about the tours themselves being great preservation activities. If a tour is the standard for good preservation activism, you might as well save the time and money now and plow everything in to the river.

I take it you're saying we should all just forget about the tours and go home? Yeah, I like your spirit! Glad you moved.

[PQZ]

I take it you're saying we should all just forget about the tours and go home? Yeah, I like your spirit! Glad you moved.

Now darling thats not at all what I am saying. Note the rest of the post in which I say that the theatre tours are just fine and serve a purpose. But if that is where you end and don't go any further, which is what Gistok and the Gang are doing, well, then nothing changes. "Demand better action from preservationists" should be one of the Detroit Declare thingies.....

[buildingsofdetroit]

"Demand better action from preservationists" should be one of the Detroit Declare thingies.....

How can preservationists do anything when George Jackson refuses to sit down and talk with them let alone work with them? Some in the preservation community are a bit trigger happy, but there are many sane voices that just want to help. But they're not allowed to or they're ignored.

[Stosh]

I'm going to go by the seat of my pants in reference to the threar referenced by PQZ, since I had to actively go find the article and thread myself...

So I'm assuming that the thread is "A Modest Proposal" found in the HOF threads?

Despite the usual attacks on formatting [[crosspost to DYES solid block of text) I will attempt to distill the points made there:
Bullet points:
1.Stop screaming that DEGC and the City have no vision and have done no preservation activity
2.Compliment and recognize the dozens of projects that ARE preservation projects that are a direct result of the DDA / DEGC and other City efforts Рsuch as the 50+ historic buildings that received direct cash grants for fa̤ade restoration work.
3.Engage the DDA / DEGC constructively.
4.Smarten up about the realities of budget priorities
5.Earn a spot at the table and show value

Now, absolutely none of these points answers any of the question I posed earlier, which was:

If you had free rein to do form a group that would be effectual in preservation in Detroit, what would it be? Lay out the business plan, since you have no intentions of coming back here. I'd be interested in hearing how that shakes out.

Try and answer that when you figure it out. All of the above bullet points involve how the preservation community should suck up to the city, when in reality the preservation community should become something far more important, something the city should WANT to work with. It's all a matter of purpose, I believe.

But I get no answers from anyone here. Yet.

The tours serve a great purpose for those that know nothing of the city's heritage. These should remain for the educational value. I intend on going on maybe a couple this year, if time permits. The theatre tour interests me the most, although a tour of the ruined theatres alongside the restored would be a contrast in development in itself. Fostering outrage would be a great selling point in developing a consensus.

I was surprised in reading that the Packard plant was on PW's list of endangered sites. That, indicates a slight lack of focus IMHO. Then I actually tried to find the list of sites itself.. Impossible!
Does anyone have the 2009 list?

[Kathleen]

Found this list of PW's 2009 Most-Endangered Detroit Sites on an Urban Planet blog....posted 21 Oct 2009 by ZachariahDaMan [[URL was too long to even bother, but you can Google it!)

1. United Artist Building
2. Wurlitzer Building
3. Book Tower & Book Building
4. Wayne County Building
5. Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue
6. Baker's Keyboard Lounge
7. Michigan State Fairgrounds
8. Packard Plant
9. Woodward Avenue Presbyterian Church
10. Historic Fort Wayne

[Stosh]

Found this list of PW's 2009 Most-Endangered Detroit Sites on an Urban Planet blog....posted 21 Oct 2009 by ZachariahDaMan [[URL was too long to even bother, but you can Google it!)

1. United Artist Building
2. Wurlitzer Building
3. Book Tower & Book Building
4. Wayne County Building
5. Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue
6. Baker's Keyboard Lounge
7. Michigan State Fairgrounds
8. Packard Plant
9. Woodward Avenue Presbyterian Church
10. Historic Fort Wayne

Thanks Kathleen. Posts elsewhere led me to believe that this was a more inclusive list, not merely a top 10 one.

What I am more interested in them making available is the Detroit Historic Building Inventory which, from their website, may be interesting in scope. How this is used remains to be seen.
The link to the page is:
http://preservationwayne.org/buildings.php

[Kathleen]

The National Trust for Historic Preservation puts out an annual list of its top 11 most-endangered sites. So PW does the same for Detroit.

[Gistok]

Stosh, the reason that the Packard Plant was put on the list was to show that some things are beyond the point of reasonable restoration... not that it should be restored. This very thing was brought up at the PW annual meeting.

Buildingsofdetroit... thanks for the info on the Fleur-de-lis.... kind of puts into perspective the difficulty that dealing with the city and its' demo folks, as far as allowing any form of salvagability of its' lost artistic heritage. The Madison-Lenox arch scenario all over again...

Stosh, PQZ likes to try to tweak my nose every so often with the LEGO mention... I wrote a 2,200 page collectors guide, as I am probably one of the leading experts on that fast growing collectible [[some LEGO have sold for over $4000 on EBAY).

[Stosh]

Stosh, the reason that the Packard Plant was put on the list was to show that some things are beyond the point of reasonable restoration... not that it should be restored. This very thing was brought up at the PW annual meeting.

Which by it's very inclusion on the list, shows how off base they really are on their priorities. Anybody with any sense at all knows that. Making symbolic statements is pretty useless to me. Give me a list with prioritized reasons WHY I should care, and HOW I can help? Is there any way they can do this?

Buildingsofdetroit... thanks for the info on the Fleur-de-lis.... kind of puts into perspective the difficulty that dealing with the city and its' demo folks, as far as allowing any form of salvagability of its' lost artistic heritage. The Madison-Lenox arch scenario all over again...

Saving archtectural elements is only worthwile if they are used in another public building. Not to be stashed away in somebody's apartment for their own private collection. at least in my book. I really cant say why they are being that way about the salvage ops, but I'd have to think there is something to be said about PQZ's theory about playing nice...

Stosh, PQZ likes to try to tweak my nose every so often with the LEGO mention... I wrote a 2,200 page collectors guide, as I am probably one of the leading experts on that fast growing collectible [[some LEGO have sold for over $4000 on EBAY).

Gee, you think? Who would have thought that?

[LodgeDodger]

Packard building number 10 is an incredibly important building in architectural history. This building was architect Albert Kahn's first steel-reinforced concrete factory. It would be criminal not to have it listed on the endangered buildings list.

[Stosh]

Packard building number 10 is an incredibly important building in architectural history. This building was architect Albert Kahn's first steel-reinforced concrete factory. It would be criminal not to have it listed on the endangered buildings list.

Which one is building 10? This one?

[Stosh]

While we were on the subject I figure you would enjoy a photo of building construction at the Packard plant from 1910.

Attachment 5389

[Stosh]

[McIPor]

I'm tired of hearing PW and Preservationists slammed for accomplishing nothing more than tours. First of all the majority of "preservationists" are volunteers, not paid staffers like some former Detroit residents on this board.

PW was responsible for the loft forums in the 90's together with the GDP that helped educate hundreds of local developers, bankers, architects, realtors, city officials [[when they bothered to come) and others on preservation successes in other cities, funding sources, tax credits and many other issues. PW brought the mayors of places like Charleston, Milwaukee, leaders from Denver Lodo, Cleveland, non profit developers like Artspace from Minn to speak to what turned into great crowds and a community of people who then did developments like Joel landy, Bob Slattery, Ric Guyer, Dave Dirita, JC Cataldo, Colin Hubbell and many others.

Many preservationists designated local historic districts like the Park Ave Historic District back in 1996 that made the renovations of buildings like the Kales possible.. Preservationists created the 1970 historic districts bill, the 1999 tax credit bill and recent 2008 enhancements. Without these, the tax credits that have made nearly all of the renovations possible wouldn't exist.

All accomplished by volunteers and staffs you can count on one hand. Many of these people got nothing in return for their time and effort, and many left town for greener, easier places to live. These were typically the same young, educated, people the city wants to attract.

Stop bashing the preservationists. They are the 20 - 35 year olds who are the future of the city.

[LodgeDodger]

I'm tired of hearing PW and Preservationists slammed for accomplishing nothing more than tours. First of all the majority of "preservationists" are volunteers, not paid staffers like some former Detroit residents on this board.

PW was responsible for the loft forums in the 90's together with the GDP that helped educate hundreds of local developers, bankers, architects, realtors, city officials [[when they bothered to come) and others on preservation successes in other cities, funding sources, tax credits and many other issues. PW brought the mayors of places like Charleston, Milwaukee, leaders from Denver Lodo, Cleveland, non profit developers like Artspace from Minn to speak to what turned into great crowds and a community of people who then did developments like Joel landy, Bob Slattery, Ric Guyer, Dave Dirita, JC Cataldo, Colin Hubbell and many others.

Many preservationists designated local historic districts like the Park Ave Historic District back in 1996 that made the renovations of buildings like the Kales possible.. Preservationists created the 1970 historic districts bill, the 1999 tax credit bill and recent 2008 enhancements. Without these, the tax credits that have made nearly all of the renovations possible wouldn't exist.

All accomplished by volunteers and staffs you can count on one hand. Many of these people got nothing in return for their time and effort, and many left town for greener, easier places to live. These were typically the same young, educated, people the city wants to attract.

Stop bashing the preservationists. They are the 20 - 35 year olds who are the future of the city.

Some are a few years older.

Nice pictures, Stosh. I don't believe that is building #10.

The endangered list? Those are sites suggested to PW. It began as a list compiled by surveying a number of businesses, organizations, and residents. It's not a PW "list of endangered sites".

I'm through with those who wish to bash PW. Thank you for your comments, Mc.

I'm a tour guide. I know the folks at PW. They're an honest, hard-working bunch. It's a pretty damned sad day when an organization and its volunteers are attacked by someone with an ulterior motive.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the specifics on the Loft Development Workshops MclPor!

Stosh, as for those Fleur De Lis that were on top of the Lafayette Building that no one was able to obtain... let me give you a background on architectural reuse...

Had you ever attended one of our Downtown Theatre Tours, you would have eventually gotten to the Gem/Century theatres. The owner of the attached theatres is named Chuck Forbes [[the figurative patron saint of the Detroit preservation community). Mr. Forbes also formerly owned the downtown YMCA and YWCA... which were about 13 stories [[or thereabouts) and were a block away from each other. They were taken from Mr. Forbes via Eminent Domain in order to build Comerica Park. But Mr. Forbes got a nice chunk of change for them, and stripped off many architectural details from these early 20th century buildings.

When he had the Gem/Century theatres moved 1,800 ft. [[so they would be out of the stadia footprint), he remodeled them with many of the architectural details from the 2 Y's. He took the balastrade from one of the building tops, and made an enclosure in front of his theatres out of it. He took other architectural details and incorporated them into his theatre forecourt. He took Pewabic Pottery tiles that lined one of the Y's swimming pool, and incorporated them into part of the interior of Century Theatre.

OK... now back to the Fleur-de-lis that lined the top of the Lafayette Building. That symbol is synonymous with French royalty... the same royalty that had Cadillac found French Detroit in 1701.

Salvaging those Fleur-de-lis could have added a nice historic and symbolic addition to Detroit to show off our French royal roots. They could have used them in landscaping the Riverwalk, or used them as an attractive feature added to the perimeter of Campus Martius... or any of hundreds of uses. Heck even if they were put into storage, it would have been preferable to having them pounded to rubble when the Lafayette Buildings walls came crashing down.

But because of the extreme difficulty and red tape in trying to salvage anything in Detroit [[as buildingsofdetroit and the other 25 folks who inquired with Adamo Demo can verify, and the failed attempt at getting the Madison-Lenox arch)... is there any wonder why the preservation community can't do salvage here as some complain??

[Stosh]

Yep, that's what happens when you have the money and will to do something.

Things get done. Unfortunately that combination is severely lacking in the city these days.

And I think that the implication that I am basicallly clueless about the Gem is rather offputting. I've been to both for plays and other events, and the information on both the Gem and Century is common knowledge, and has been on their websites since the move.

Those architectural elements are gone. You should have hired some of the urban explorers to get them before the demo. It's really just simple concrete mold work, after all. Simple to replicate. Anybody with basic skills can churn out concrete elements by the ton using gang molds. Just a little patience and money incorporating into buildings. Probably even easier if you are using resins. Lighter and gives the same look.

Edit: And that reminds me of something... why is it that preservation groups dont get somebody on scaffolding and get some of the architectural elements on buildings now in molds for future preservation or sale? The Freep building has some outrageous stuff on the building. Now that's a worthwhile thing for them to do, and plaster, resin or concrete reproductions could be done to raise funds for actual restoration work.

Now that brings me back to the National Theatre. You say that was cleared out by PW a number of years ago.. how much is it up for sale for now?

[Gistok]

Stosh, my appologies about the Gem/Century comments. We have so many people here posting from around the country [[and world), that since I don't know you.... well lets just say I could have phrased that much more diplomatically. Sorry.

As for the National Theatre... although it is city owned, some group does have [[or had) an option on it. But I can't find any details.

Although the facade of the National did have facade clean-up done with the SuperBowl downtown building cleanup fund, the interior plasterwork is in sad shape. The city did have the sense to put a new roof on the National long ago... but sadly that was after the plasterwork in the auditorium deteriorated [[water damage) and it is probably in worse condition than the United Artists. I'm not blaming the city on the condition of the interior.... it may have been abandoned before the city took title.

[Fnemecek]

Right. Who cares about whether or not a group has money or a viable plan to redevelop a historic site?

It's all about their web site.

[PQZ]

Right. Who cares about whether or not a group has money or a viable plan to redevelop a historic site?

It's all about their web site.

OTSC certainly had a good plan and idea. They certainly did not have adequate cash in hand to implement the plan. Promises of funding, promises of federal earmarks are one thing. Not having the wherewithal to get a basic website up and running within 18 months when folks are clamoring for a way to donate money is a strong indicaotr of the capacity of the organization to execute the plan and actually secure the promised funding.

As usual Frank, you want to make cutesy comments that ignore the reality.

Yes, OTSC had a decent plan - but the execution and capacity were sorely lacking. As a person who loves preservation and agitates for it, I liked their plan. As a professional with an advanced degree in urban planning, and as a professional who actually did some of the heavy lifting on the Book Cadillac - as opposed to say selling t-shirts - their execution and capacity were sorely sorely lacking.

Yes, the EDC was not as supportive of the plan as it could have been, but to pin the failure of the OTSC on the EDC is to completely and willfully ignore the serious organizational issues that the OTSC had.

[Fnemecek]

OTSC certainly had a good plan and idea. They certainly did not have adequate cash in hand to implement the plan. Promises of funding, promises of federal earmarks are one thing. Not having the wherewithal to get a basic website up and running within 18 months when folks are clamoring for a way to donate money is a strong indicaotr of the capacity of the organization to execute the plan and actually secure the promised funding.

As usual Frank, you want to make cutesy comments that ignore the reality.

I'm the one ignoring reality?

The federal earmark passed both Houses of Congress and was signed into law by the President.

And that's only a mere promise?

[Stosh]

I'm the one ignoring reality?

The federal earmark passed both Houses of Congress and was signed into law by the President.

And that's only a mere promise?

And of course that earmark quickly became a hot button issue around the country for being notorious pork.
I wonder what happened?

And an earmark IS a promise. An appropriation is what was needed.

[Fnemecek]

And of course that earmark quickly became a hot button issue around the country for being notorious pork.
I wonder what happened?

Yes, there are people who don't like earmarks.

Yes, the OTSC earmark was one of the ones that they complained about in 2009.

What's your point?

And an earmark IS a promise. An appropriation is what was needed.

Wow! And I thought Peter was off-base with his comment about the OTSC not being a legitimate organization because of their web site or lack thereof.

An earmark is a type of appropriation; one that circumvents the normal, competitive process of allocating funds within the federal budget.

http://earmarks.omb.gov/earmarks_definition.html