Tom Wilson will be hired by Ilitches to oversee Red Wings, Tigers

[1KielsonDrive]

Wilson is now a 'high-priced lobbyist'. He gets the title of VP or some such thing to fool the gullible public. More accurately, he should be called what he is - lobbyist, shill. He'll be working city hall, The Guardian Building and the State Capitol for every penny the Illitch's can dig up. After they allowed Tiger stadium to be torn down, they're working on their just rewards - a new stadium paid for by you and me. Oh how I'm looking forward to that.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Wilson is now a 'high-priced lobbyist'. He gets the title of VP or some such thing to fool the gullible public. More accurately, he should be called what he is - lobbyist, shill. He'll be working city hall, The Guardian Building and the State Capitol for every penny the Illitch's can dig up. After they allowed Tiger stadium to be torn down, they're working on their just rewards - a new stadium paid for by you and me. Oh how I'm looking forward to that.

What I stated earlier, don't know why everyone is on Tom Wilson's jock, he's nothing more than a lobbyist that thinks he's a politician. Someone said on here that he's brilliant. What's so brilliant about him? He will become Mr Illitch's yes-man now, instead of Davidson's. He will line his pockets, and take from ours before it's all said and done. Guess who will be financing that new stadium??

[ct_alum]

Get a grip everyone, the arena will be built on Illitch's property in Foxtown [[and paid for by us) - Why do you think that he has been buying property there for years? Michigan and Trumbull? Forget it. The Joe? It will be torn down and Cobo expanded.

[bartock]

What I stated earlier, don't know why everyone is on Tom Wilson's jock, he's nothing more than a lobbyist that thinks he's a politician. Someone said on here that he's brilliant. What's so brilliant about him? He will become Mr Illitch's yes-man now, instead of Davidson's. He will line his pockets, and take from ours before it's all said and done. Guess who will be financing that new stadium??

I guess I'm not unerstanding this. Perhaps you know far more about Wilson than I do. Was he lining his pockets with Davidson's and taking from ours with the Pistons? How? Because he was running part of an owner's business and people voluntarily paid money to see the product? And how do you explain Pine Knob/DTE?

The Palace was only publicly financed with $10 million in infrastructure. Of course taxpayers are going to be financing part of the new stadium...but how is this Wilson as opposed to Illitch?

[BShea]

Keep in mind that Joe Louis, Comerica Park and Ford Field are owned by the Detroit-Wayne County Stadium Authority, and the teams sublease them.

Ilitch paid $185 million of the $300 million cost of Comerica. The remainder is from the car rental and hotel tax. The general public was not taxed via a direct levy, and the city didn't lay out $115 million from the general fund, etc. If you don't stay in a local hotel or rent a car, you didn't take much of a personal hit on funding the stadium.

Comerica Park is one of the examples of modern stadium financing that saw the owner pay for more than half of the facility, and the public wasn't asked to float tens of millions directly.

That said, there are compelling cases for and against public investment in entertainment/sports venues. That's a story I'll be writing a few times in coming years. Neil deMause, author of Field of Schemes, and a web site of the same name, makes the case against such funding. I quote him in this week's Crain's.

I guess it's a political/economic ideological question.

I will say, if you think Tom Wilson was hired as an empty suit-figure head ... well, keep watching. He's widely respected in pro sports and all teams from all four major leagues, and business, wanted him. If you're going to build an arena around here, this is a guy to have on staff. The Palace, and how Palace Sports was run, make for a solid resume. And I don't think for a moment that anyone would deny that part of his job is to lobby and navigate the political waters [[something else I wrote about in today's edition). That's part of his job, but it's far from his entire job. And even if it was all he was hired to do, he's the guy to do it. Few others in the world have his experience. Bill Davidson relied on him completely, and the Pistons and Palace Sports have done OK ...

[bailey]

Anyone catch Wilson's interview with Drew and Mike last week? It was a rare few minutes where D&M were listenable. I think they went the whole interview with out a single fart drop. Wilson was pretty clear that the economics aren't there for a new single franchise arena. sticker for a new venue is around 500 million, which demands that there not just be one franchise footing the bill and he was pretty straight that public funds were going to be close to impossible to get anytime soon.

With Wilson being so matter of fact that the venue would have to be for more than one franchise, I just don't see how two organizations that are direct competitors in a shrinking market- Olympia and Palace entertainment- come together on a new venue in Ilitch's backyard..leaving the Palace to languish. I would bet a JLA renovation is the most likely result given the economics of the situation and the region's long term outlook. which means another generation or two of empty land around the Fox as Illitch will just sit on all of that no doubt. The next 15-20 years of gossip and computer models should be interesting though.

[schulzte]

There is no reason a new arena in Detroit would cost $500 million. A sports arena can cost as much as an owner wants, but it doesn't have to be Jerry Jones ridiculous. The Ford Center in Oklahoma City is a 19,500 seat arena that was completed for $89 million just 7 years ago, they now host the Oklahoma City Thunder [[Yes, that is an NBA team). The highly regarded NHL arena in St. Paul, Minnesota cost $130 million and opened 10 years ago. So I think the Red Wings could get into a fine new building for $200-250 million. That's still a lot of money, but naming rights could get the first 25% of that.

http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com

[Detroitej72]

Guess who will be financing that new stadium??

Hopefully all those folks living in the suburbs!

*note: this is sarcasm

[Detroitej72]

Ilitch paid $185 million of the $300 million cost of Comerica. The remainder is from the car rental and hotel tax. The general public was not taxed via a direct levy, and the city didn't lay out $115 million from the general fund, etc. If you don't stay in a local hotel or rent a car, you didn't take much of a personal hit on funding the stadium.

Thanks for pointing out a fact that many conveniently ignore and or bury under the carpet.

[bailey]

There is no reason a new arena in Detroit would cost $500 million. A sports arena can cost as much as an owner wants, but it doesn't have to be Jerry Jones ridiculous. The Ford Center in Oklahoma City is a 19,500 seat arena that was completed for $89 million just 7 years ago, they now host the Oklahoma City Thunder [[Yes, that is an NBA team). The highly regarded NHL arena in St. Paul, Minnesota cost $130 million and opened 10 years ago. So I think the Red Wings could get into a fine new building for $200-250 million. That's still a lot of money, but naming rights could get the first 25% of that.

http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com

Tell that to Wilson, he's the one throwing around the 500 million number.

But before that... look at your numbers. 79 million for the Palace 20 years ago, 130 million for the Xcell 10 years ago... so a close to 2x every ten years. In the next ten years, which is a generous time line for anything this major to happen around here, what do you think the numbers are going to do? Yes if shovels were going into the ground today, 250-300 million might be a good number, but they aren't going into the ground for years. every year it doesn't happen, it gets that much more expensive. I would guess that is where Wilson is pulling that 500 million number from.

[BShea]

A new arena cost will depend on how you want to come up with the number: Do you include what the Ilitches have paid already over the years for the land? The number could vary depending on how much demolition is needed, environmental cleanup/mitigation, etc. And, of course, what the final design looks like.

The Penguins are getting a $321 million arena in time for next season. If the price tag here ends up being $500 million, that I would think it's more than just an arena -- perhaps an entertainment district, too.

If the project is like Columbus, Ohio, Nationwide Insurance paid for an arena for their Blue Jackets, and practically built and entire new city within a city -- an entertainment district that revitalized an otherwise unused area.

As a downtown resident, I'd hope a new arena is part of a wider plan with the city and other investors to create such a district. That would be cool. And I'd love to jump on a light-rail car to visit it! LOL ...

I don't think there's any dispute that the Gateway project [[Jacobs Field/Gund Arena) enhanced a dormant section of downtown Cleveland, at the same time the renovation of the Flats district was going on. But you can argue if any public dollars should be part of that, or if investment in revitalization should be entirely private sector. That's a legit ideological and economic discussion that will be hashed out.

[mikeg19]

There is no reason a new arena in Detroit would cost $500 million. A sports arena can cost as much as an owner wants, but it doesn't have to be Jerry Jones ridiculous. The Ford Center in Oklahoma City is a 19,500 seat arena that was completed for $89 million just 7 years ago, they now host the Oklahoma City Thunder [[Yes, that is an NBA team). The highly regarded NHL arena in St. Paul, Minnesota cost $130 million and opened 10 years ago. So I think the Red Wings could get into a fine new building for $200-250 million. That's still a lot of money, but naming rights could get the first 25% of that.

http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com

Thank you for saying that. I'm not sure where people are getting the $500 million figure from. Traditionally baseball and football stadiums are much more expensive than a hockey arena for various reasons. A top notch, state of the art arena could easily be had for no more than $250-$300 million. And that's with all the bells and whistles according to several NHL stadiums built in the past decade. BUT most of those stadiums also share their home with an NBA team.

The only problem I have with the Wings sharing a building with the Pistons is the typically dual purpose arenas have crappy ice conditions. Now I don't know if there is a way to correct that with new technologies or some sort of new system of ice coverage, but for a team that usually has one of the best ice surfaces in the league, I wouldn't want to sacrifice that. If your playing on bad ice you can't play a puck possession style [[like the Wings do) and have to revert to dump and chase.

[R8RBOB]

There is no reason a new arena in Detroit would cost $500 million. A sports arena can cost as much as an owner wants, but it doesn't have to be Jerry Jones ridiculous. The Ford Center in Oklahoma City is a 19,500 seat arena that was completed for $89 million just 7 years ago, they now host the Oklahoma City Thunder [[Yes, that is an NBA team). The highly regarded NHL arena in St. Paul, Minnesota cost $130 million and opened 10 years ago. So I think the Red Wings could get into a fine new building for $200-250 million. That's still a lot of money, but naming rights could get the first 25% of that.

http://www.newolympia.blogspot.com

I agree with you. The only reason why an arena would cost 500 million dollars is because the owners want it to cost that much. I understand that Wilson and the Ilitches don't want another JLA [[arena built on the cheap) but to ask for 500 million is insane in a repress market like Detroit. Detroit don't need a "IlitchWorld" like "JerryWorld" in Arlington. I will say this; if Wilson asking for 500 mil, he must be expecting the Pistons to relocate to downtown.

[BShea]

The Ilitches have not floated ANY numbers, as far as I can tell.

The arena estimates I've reported -- based on what industry insiders say, and the cost of current arenas -- have been $200-$300+ million ... not $500 million.

Who is reporting $500 million?

[bartock]

Thanks for pointing out a fact that many conveniently ignore and or bury under the carpet.

I thought the figure was more like $145 million [[approx. 2/3 public, 1/3 private, but I'll defer to someone writing for Crain's), but as far as where the tax dollars came from, it is not being ignored. While not the first or the last City to do it, Detroit's added hotel, rental car taxes ultimately affect those who travel to other cities, because they do it also. When almost every major city follows suit with the same tax it is almost the same thing as imposing it on your own.

[1KielsonDrive]

Anyone catch Wilson's interview with Drew and Mike last week? It was a rare few minutes where D&M were listenable. I think they went the whole interview with out a single fart drop. Wilson was pretty clear that the economics aren't there for a new single franchise arena. sticker for a new venue is around 500 million, which demands that there not just be one franchise footing the bill and he was pretty straight that public funds were going to be close to impossible to get anytime soon.

With Wilson being so matter of fact that the venue would have to be for more than one franchise, I just don't see how two organizations that are direct competitors in a shrinking market- Olympia and Palace entertainment- come together on a new venue in Ilitch's backyard..leaving the Palace to languish. I would bet a JLA renovation is the most likely result given the economics of the situation and the region's long term outlook. which means another generation or two of empty land around the Fox as Illitch will just sit on all of that no doubt. The next 15-20 years of gossip and computer models should be interesting though.

Don't believe any of Wilson's nonsense for a minute. He's jerking everyone except the Illitch's. They know what they're up to and this is their message; 'We're not going to screw you, just don't turn your back for a minute'. Once 'our' elected officials get a whiff of this scheme, they'll be running and crawling to any back room the Illitch's provide to get a piece of the action. All in the name of 'economic development'.

[1KielsonDrive]

BTW, the hundreds of millions of tax dollars [[you can parse it anyway you like, it's tax dollars) that's likely to go for a new stadium for a billionaire, is called 'redistribution of wealth', or as some like to say in disparaging fashion, 'socialism'. If this was to be applied to lower or middle income people's programs, say 'Health Care', it would be be hooted out of town. I wonder if the Illitch's will provide more economic stimulus from their gift than 'Health Care' would?

[BShea]

I'm not sure it's parsing. I've never rented a room or a car in Wayne County, so I've never been directly taxed for the construction of either Ford Field or Comerica Park.

Speaking only as a Detroit resident, I much prefer stadiums be paid for through use taxes, such as the current venues, or thought "sin" taxes such as Cleveland used for its arenas [[tobacco and booze).

Yes, it's a tax but not all taxes are the same. I would hate to be directly taxed for such projects [[especially since I'm not a fan of these teams!). Or if the city decided to pony up a lump sum out of the general fund, which would be a variation of taxing me directly.

Some taxes hurt a lot more than others.

Again, it comes down to your philosophical preference. Some will argue that it's corporate welfare, which is a valid point. Others will say it's the price of getting something done, and that such projects are a public good -- and certainly better than going with the status quo.

Me, as a downtown resident, I'm hopeful a deal will be worked out to minimize the impact on taxpayers, especially with the schools and basic services in such trouble. And I also interested in seeing something built that will improve the downtown -- getting rid of vacant land/eye sores and hopefully opening up new opportunities for people to get jobs or start businesses that would feed off such an arena.

JLA is in a terrible location, and tearing it down could further open valuable waterfront land for development.

[BShea]

BTW, the hundreds of millions of tax dollars [[you can parse it anyway you like, it's tax dollars) that's likely to go for a new stadium for a billionaire, is called 'redistribution of wealth', or as some like to say in disparaging fashion, 'socialism'. If this was to be applied to lower or middle income people's programs, say 'Health Care', it would be be hooted out of town. I wonder if the Illitch's will provide more economic stimulus from their gift than 'Health Care' would?

I guess I missed the news that the private sector was offering to pay 62 percent of health care cost, with the remainder picked up by the public [[as the Comerica Park breakdown was). Sounds like a good deal to me, socialism or otherwise.

[esp1986]

JLA is in a terrible location, and tearing it down could further open valuable waterfront land for development.

JLA couldn't be in a worse location. It is landlocked, which limits what can be done in a renovation, the subject of which [[JLA), is frequently talked about as being too cramped and too small. In order for JLA to have all the ammenities it needs, i.e. spaces for the concession stands so they aren't all over the place, they need to expand the concourse, but with no room to do that, the effectiveness of a renovation is only minimal.

Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, there is no developable space near Joe Louis... sure, if you go a ways down Jefferson, but you may as well walk back toward downtown if that is your answer. There is no possibility for economic development anywhere near JLA as is. We have all seen how the area around CoPa and Ford Field have grown since those venues were completed. You could very much expect the same from a new arena. People are eager to set up shop around the arena now, but with no adjacent property or space available, there is just simply no development, no restaurants, nothing.

[1KielsonDrive]

I'm not sure it's parsing. I've never rented a room or a car in Wayne County, so I've never been directly taxed for the construction of either Ford Field or Comerica Park.

Speaking only as a Detroit resident, I much prefer stadiums be paid for through use taxes, such as the current venues, or thought "sin" taxes such as Cleveland used for its arenas [[tobacco and booze).

Yes, it's a tax but not all taxes are the same. I would hate to be directly taxed for such projects [[especially since I'm not a fan of these teams!). Or if the city decided to pony up a lump sum out of the general fund, which would be a variation of taxing me directly.

Some taxes hurt a lot more than others.

Again, it comes down to your philosophical preference. Some will argue that it's corporate welfare, which is a valid point. Others will say it's the price of getting something done, and that such projects are a public good -- and certainly better than going with the status quo.

Me, as a downtown resident, I'm hopeful a deal will be worked out to minimize the impact on taxpayers, especially with the schools and basic services in such trouble. And I also interested in seeing something built that will improve the downtown -- getting rid of vacant land/eye sores and hopefully opening up new opportunities for people to get jobs or start businesses that would feed off such an arena.

JLA is in a terrible location, and tearing it down could further open valuable waterfront land for development.

Good feedback, BShea. I'd argue downtown development has been taking place and taking from the neighborhoods for my entire life. What do we have to show for it? In another decade or so, it'll be time to tear down the existing stadia and rebuild radically larger and/or just newer ones for the billionaires. I'm not saying quit it entirely, I'm saying change the focus. Joe Louis and the then new Cobo Hall [[circa1988) did very little for my business or businesses up toward Grand Circus Park, or even a few blocks away. Nor did the Grand Prix. Even the festivals and concerts at Hart Plaza were too far away to do much good. The People Mover was a wonder at first because it ran 24 hours. Once they cut the hours back to 11PM it was useless. Let the billionaires pay their own way.

[1KielsonDrive]

I guess I missed the news that the private sector was offering to pay 62 percent of health care cost, with the remainder picked up by the public [[as the Comerica Park breakdown was). Sounds like a good deal to me, socialism or otherwise.

Well I guess you have different figures than I have. As of this time, I haven't heard of any proposals by the 'private sector' [[a euphemism for corporate America?), to finance or pay for health care in any fashion. They don't want to lose their indentured servants. But my main point was that the words and terms used to sell these ideas and proposlas take on different meanings at different times. Those who have the power [[money, duh), have the means to massage the message, so to speak.

[BShea]

Joe Louis and the then new Cobo Hall [[circa1988) did very little for my business or businesses up toward Grand Circus Park, or even a few blocks away.

Well, that's the point on Cobo -- it's in about the worst downtown location you can find. It's a windowless box on the river, constricted by highways.

Arenas can have a positive effect for the area around them, but that all hinges on planning by the owners and the city. Check out of the example in Columbus, Ohio. That was amazing to see go up -- like a whole new city within a city at once.

[1KielsonDrive]

Joe Louis and the then new Cobo Hall [[circa1988) did very little for my business or businesses up toward Grand Circus Park, or even a few blocks away.

Well, that's the point on Cobo -- it's in about the worst downtown location you can find. It's a windowless box on the river, constricted by highways.

Arenas can have a positive effect for the area around them, but that all hinges on planning by the owners and the city. Check out of the example in Columbus, Ohio. That was amazing to see go up -- like a whole new city within a city at once.

I certainly agree with you about Cobo - and Joe Louis. Just looking at, or driving around that mess gives me anxiety. City Planning certainly hasn't been Detroit's forte. You may be right about the arena in Columbus. I wouldn't know, I don't go to Columbus. I still believe citizens have been brainwashed to believe they will get some actual benefits from giving hundreds of millions of dollars [[tax or otherwise) to bilionaires, trusting they will do us right. I'd rather see it go to education. And I don't mean the UoM. They have enough billionaire alumni benefactors to take care of them for eternity. I'd like it to go to high schools and smaller colleges where students who care can get a good education.

[esp1986]

I certainly agree with you about Cobo - and Joe Louis. Just looking at, or driving around that mess gives me anxiety. City Planning certainly hasn't been Detroit's forte. You may be right about the arena in Columbus. I wouldn't know, I don't go to Columbus. I still believe citizens have been brainwashed to believe they will get some actual benefits from giving hundreds of millions of dollars [[tax or otherwise) to bilionaires, trusting they will do us right. I'd rather see it go to education. And I don't mean the UoM. They have enough billionaire alumni benefactors to take care of them for eternity. I'd like it to go to high schools and smaller colleges where students who care can get a good education.

I agree with BShea... I have been to Columbus multiple times recently, and the impact of the arena is substantial... the whole are used to look the way Woodward does now, dormant, with very little activity... but the arena changed everything... the buildings have been renovated into residential units with ground floor retail... and I believe this past summer, they opened up a new ballpark next door for the Columbus Clippers [[AAA). It is stunning how an area that once fit in with many others in the Rust Belt changed so much...

Cleveland, on the other hand was mentioned too, is somewhat of a different story... The two stadiums there, Jacobs [[Progressive) Field and Quicken Loans [[The Q) Arena are much the same as JLA. While they are right next to each other, they are rather landlocked by I-71, and the river, and pretty much occupy a triangular shaped piece of land once you consider the street they are on... so Cleveland is a bad example, because parking lots separate them from any substantial retail space, and residential in downtown Cleveland is even more scarce than in Detroit.