race- maybe?

[English]

It's not the amount of melanin that make someone a good or bad leader. To think that is truly racist.

Of more concern than whether a leader is black or white or hispanic or other, is an aspect of human nature that leads members of a group to support other members of that group even if that support isn't really warranted. This "circle the wagons" mentality seems stronger in minority groups that have historically been in a more fragile place in society. So we see some otherwise intelligent people sticking by Kilpatrick's side long after it was objectively apparent that he was bad news.

While no racial group has a predilection to poor political performance, a minority pol will receive higher support from their minority group than otherwise justified, and that enables them to stick around longer since he's "our guy" and "they" are out to get him.

I agree with everything you've said here, actually. Thanks. You've done some of my work for me.

Given what you've said above, is the question really about race, or is "race" a descriptor in America that often gets conflated with:

--class?
--socioeconomic status?
--ideology?
--politics?
--culture?
--nationality?
--ethical development?
--character?
--...?

[English]

Ouch!!!! That stings but I have to agree with Bear English. I have traveled throughout the three countries and I have to say that White people didn't move to places like Chesterfield Township or Washington Township because the soil was fertile and milk and honey was flowing. Diversity will not happen for this region until we get new residents [[read: out-of-state) to settle and that is not going to happen anytime soon.

Hey, Bear and I don't necessarily agree or disagree. We're just having a discussion. Everything doesn't have to be an epic, divisive debate.

So first, diversity is not only inevitable for this region, but for the nation and the world. The only way that you are going to stop it is to exponentially increase birth rates for non-Hispanic white women here and throughout the Western world.

Second, the mid-to-late 20th century economic conditions that led to suburbia, white flight, and the exurbs will not return in our lifetimes. The people who had the means to leave for the townships in the 1990s and 2000s will see their economic situation change both now and in the future. Many of them are Baby Boomers and older Gen-Xers whose incomes just will not be able to sustain living in a 4000 square foot McMansion on pilfered farmland and/or forest. Unless they have retirement incomes and investments that are completely immune to crashes, we younger Gen-Xers and our younger Millennial brothers and sisters will simply not subsidize what we feel is unsustainable.

Slumburbia [[New York Times)
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...10/slumburbia/

People in the exurbs of the mid-21st century won't be living in HGTV-like conditions... but perhaps in more rural locations, with everything that entails. It will be a great lifestyle for some people, and with the renewed emphasis on buying local, potentially a wonderful growth sector of the economy.

[English]

*cracking up*

No, that's not what I'm saying, really.

You know, I wish we could remove "good" and "evil" from this discussion. I was raised to assign blame and label things as either good or evil, but I think that 21st century people will have to be much more forgiving of our 20th century ancestors. There are things that the Greatest Generation got wrong, but they had a whole lot more right, especially when it came to having a notion of "the public good", something that we post-Civil Rights generations have forgotten.

I'll never forget what a stately professor that I had at FAMU told us many years ago in his early American literature class.

"Do not be so quick to condemn the people living in the past. For on a future day, you too will be judged."


Time provides distance, and distance gives us perspective. With perspective, we can see how Detroit declined and why. Though we rail about it on this forum, white families choosing to move away in 1970 can't be blamed or denigrated for leaving. The same applies to those of us who voted for Kwame Kilpatrick over Gil Hill in 2001. We need to give equal grace to those who have voted down SMART, and most recently, are causing the public library in Troy to close down. No one is clairvoyant, and MOST people aren't malicious. People do what they think is best at the time in order to survive.

Detroit voters, even when voting for the worst people, did not do so maliciously. There is often a sense, as there is anywhere, that people are pulling the lever for the lesser of two evils. There is quite a bit of mutual suspicion in this region, so that a candidate who is aligned with outsider communities whose residents fear and loathe Detroit and Detroiters is often regarded with suspicion. It's human nature not to vote for people you don't think see you as human.

The problem with SE Michigan is that until very recently, we seemed mired in a past that few of us really understood in any detail, and with any complexity. However, the miracles of postwar Europe and Japan occurred when there was a willingness to let go of the past and press forward towards the future. After the Second World War, they were forced by law to move on and not to resurrect the past. Today, their economy and society puts ours to shame in many ways.

In contrast, look at Germany after the trauma of WWI and the Treaty of Versailles. Germans of all classes begrudged what happened to them after the First World War, fell into resentment, and became fruit ripe for a madman's plucking.

The choice is ours. For far too long, Detroit and its neighbors have been engaged in pointless, racial trench warfare. SOMEONE has got to be willing to stand in no man's land and tell the jokers on both sides to pump their brakes. I think you're going to have more and more young people, and some people of all ages, willing to do so.

[dookie joe]

The choice is ours. For far too long, Detroit and its neighbors have been engaged in pointless, racial trench warfare. SOMEONE has got to be willing to stand in no man's land and tell the jokers on both sides to pump their brakes. I think you're going to have more and more young people, and some people of all ages, willing to do so.

I wish this would come to pass, but I doubt it will ever happen under our current system. As I said earlier, the powers that be have a vested interest in fanning the flames of division.

And as the 2 percent that owns 99 percent of the wealth in this country continue to screw us all harder and harder, I don't see them easing up these divisive disinformation and propaganda campaigns any time soon.

[dookie joe]

There is no such thing are 'right' or 'wrong' there are only shadings of grey.

I know you're being facetious, but the right answer here is that things aren't always black and white, right or wrong. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

Those who voted for KK bear no blame for the fact that he was elected and raped the city.

They bear as much responsibility as those who voted for GW Bush twice.

No one is clairvoyant, and truly worthy people who voted for Hitler cannot be blamed for what he did.

Before the war broke out, most of Germany revered Hitler. Does that mean all those Germans were evil, or just misguided?

Personally, I feel modern Americans are every bit as misguided because, in keeping with the textbook definition of insanity, they continue going to the polls to vote either Democratic or Republican and expecting different results, even as both parties continue to steer our country toward disaster.

They keep voting for one of the two parties, both of which are bought and paid for by corporate interests, and then wonder why things never truly ever change.

"Responsibility' is an obsolete notion.

"Accountability' is an out-of-place artifact from an old an no-longer relevant age.

I agree that in many circles, this is becoming the norm, unfortunately.

[English]

Again you hit the nail on the head, English.

There is no such thing are 'right' or 'wrong' there are only shadings of grey.

Those who voted for KK bear no blame for the fact that he was elected and raped the city.

No one is clairvoyant, and truly worthy people who voted for Hitler cannot be blamed for what he did.

"Responsibility' is an obsolete notion.

"Accountability' is an out-of-place artifact from an old an no-longer relevant age.

We must not judge, or criticize.

That way, as we all go down together our funeral will be more.....polite!

Wow. Just... wow.

[Hermod]

Many of them are Baby Boomers and older Gen-Xers whose incomes just will not be able to sustain living in a 4000 square foot McMansion on pilfered farmland and/or forest.

What is "pilfered" farmland? Our neighbor owned eighteen acres of land. During the day, he worked forty hours in a factory. In the evenings, he farmed the eighteen acres. When he got to be about sixty, he got tired of farming. He subdivided his eighteen acres, had a road built up the middle of the land, and sold eighteen one acre plots to people who had houses [[mostly 1500-2500 sq ft) built on the land that they purchased. Where exactly was there any pilferage? The worker/farmer got a retirement nest egg and the people that bought the vacant lots got nice home sites.

[English]

What is "pilfered" farmland? Our neighbor owned eighteen acres of land. During the day, he worked forty hours in a factory. In the evenings, he farmed the eighteen acres. When he got to be about sixty, he got tired of farming. He subdivided his eighteen acres, had a road built up the middle of the land, and sold eighteen one acre plots to people who had houses [[mostly 1500-2500 sq ft) built on the land that they purchased. Where exactly was there any pilferage? The worker/farmer got a retirement nest egg and the people that bought the vacant lots got nice home sites.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/...ical-footprint

[stasu1213]

I agree with English.

It is inevitable that justice will catch up to the the exploitive bourgeouise exodus to the 'burbs, and whatever stolen wealth those scum have accumulated will be appropriated by the agents of the people for the greater good of Detroit residents.

And when that glorius day comes, the people shall dictate with a unified voice where, and under what circumstance, the former 'wealth'class of the 'burb's will be allowed to live in our revered people's city of Detroit; and the PEOPLE will decide the functions such scum will be required to carry out to support the welfare of those they have exploited for TOO LONG!!!

Why did blacks follow. It reminds me of that 1960's song "I will follow him".What are black going to do to improve their own neighborhoods? Some individuals who are beginning to take a stand in certain aereas in the city. That stand should had been taken in the 1980s when crack cocaine and teenage drug gangs were running rampant. The neighborhood would had been stablelized. The bad guys ran out of town. The flight of middle class blacks were also the problem in Detroit during the 1980s also. The black middle class should had stayed behind a help build their own communities. They should had demand that good groceries stores open in the neighborhoods. Better schools and services. That is how a neighborhood is maintained. Detroiters let Coleman Young get away with murder. My friend had once said "Blacks don't mind getting f@#k in the butt as long as the d&#k in black. I disagree with that. I do believe that the black leaders weren't harshly challenged during the Coleman Young regime during the 70's and 80s

[Hermod]

http://www.newgeography.com/content/...ical-footprint

Again, where is the term "pilfered" used? Exactly who was the land "pilfered" from? Was it "stolen" from the "collective"?

[English]

Why did blacks follow. It reminds me of that 1960's song "I will follow him".What are black going to do to improve their own neighborhoods? Some individuals who are beginning to take a stand in certain aereas in the city. That stand should had been taken in the 1980s when crack cocaine and teenage drug gangs were running rampant. The neighborhood would had been stablelized. The bad guys ran out of town. The flight of middle class blacks were also the problem in Detroit during the 1980s also. The black middle class should had stayed behind a help build their own communities. They should had demand that good groceries stores open in the neighborhoods. Better schools and services. That is how a neighborhood is maintained. Detroiters let Coleman Young get away with murder. My friend had once said "Blacks don't mind getting f@#k in the butt as long as the d&#k in black. I disagree with that. I do believe that the black leaders weren't harshly challenged during the Coleman Young regime during the 70's and 80s

Why do black people have to be responsible to every single other black person? I don't get it. Other people are looked at and responsible to themselves and their families. Black people are the only ones who get lumped in as one group.

Why did the black middle class have an extra responsibility to stay in Detroit, but other middle classes of other races could move anywhere they wanted? Are you saying that black people are less free to choose their lifestyle?

Why does race have to be the reason why people choose to associate with each other? Maybe black middle class people feel that they have more in common with middle class people of any race than with poor people. No one asks the white middle class to live in trailer parks or berates them for not doing so.

As for what your friend said about black people, I hear horrible things about white people every day. Even if others say them, I choose not to pass them on, and I berate those who say things like that. But then again, I'm a lady and I was raised to have manners. What did you say when your friend said that? I hope you told him that his words were offensive and inaccurate.

Final word: If all black people have to be responsible for the actions of all other black people, then all white people have to be responsible for racism.

Both premises are absolutely ridiculous.

[English]

Again, where is the term "pilfered" used? Exactly who was the land "pilfered" from? Was it "stolen" from the "collective"?

If you want to get technical, yes. The continent was occupied when we got here.

BTW, Hermod, it's weird that you're following me from thread to thread. Is there something you want to tell me?

[Retroit]

Boy, you people sure can masturbate a topic!

Detroit's problems have nothing to do with race. They have to do with the belief systems, lifestyles, and choices made by its residents who just-so-happen to belong predominantly to one race.

If you replaced all the black Detroiters with white Detroiters and those white Detroiters thought and behaved the way the black Detroiters did, Detroit would be the same as it is now.

Inability to preserve one's self, family, and community is not an inherent and exclusive black trait.

[Hermod]

If you want to get technical, yes. The continent was occupied when we got here.

BTW, Hermod, it's weird that you're following me from thread to thread. Is there something you want to tell me?

No. We are both educated people and we seem to gravitate to the same threads. I have no particular bias for or against you. While I have disagreed with you or questioned you, I have never attacked you on a personal basis. Just let our bits and bytes of data flit and out of these pages. I am attracted by topics and posts and not personalities. Detroitnerd and I have a lot of interaction as well, but I don't think that either of us are stalking each other.

.

[stasu1213]

English; It is blacks who had came up with the slogan, "It takes a whole village to raise a child." and blacks are always saying that sucessful blacks should come back into the community and give back. Other races can go anywhere they want. Other races demand good services from their leaders and get it. Blacks are less free to choose their lifestyle for whenever blacks move into a white community the community changes within 5 years and it will be all black. Go figure.If the person in the trailer park can afford to live in a Middle Class white community that person will do it Some would prefer to live in that trailer park in Warren with decent services than to live in Detroit in the best neighborhoods with lousy services and higher taxes. As for my friend; She is a highly educated black woman who made the comment. It was a little rough but it is true. Blacks should had held mass rallies and protests up Woodward denouncing the way the school system was being ranned. The poor services including EMS and Police that the BLACK leaders had provided you over the past 30 odd years.Water rates hikes. Crime in the neighborhood with Kwame Kilpatrick closing the police stations around the city. Al Sharpton even came to town to pacify the residents from their anger at Kwame. It had to take talk show hosts who werent born in Detroit to rally the lifelong residents to do something! Come on.

[English]

No. We are both educated people and we seem to gravitate to the same threads. I have no particular bias for or against you. While I have disagreed with you or questioned you, I have never attacked you on a personal basis. Just let our bits and bytes of data flit and out of these pages. I am attracted by topics and posts and not personalities. Detroitnerd and I have a lot of interaction as well, but I don't think that either of us are stalking each other.
.

Agreed. Sorry for getting a little too sensitive... it's a stressful time in my life right now, and I'm venting my stress all over DYes.

[dookie joe]

If you replaced all the black Detroiters with white Detroiters and those white Detroiters thought and behaved the way the black Detroiters did, Detroit would be the same as it is now. .

Sure. And if those white Detroiters dismissed candidates out of hand who weren't "white enough," and used their white skin color as a political weapon, I would say that race is an issue in that city.

You are right that skin color in and of itself isn't the problem. But race is often used by Detroit's politicians to deflect and divide. So therefore race is an issue in Detroit.

And as I've said, it's also an issue other cities where white politicians use skin color to either garner votes or deflect attention.

[dookie joe]

English; It is blacks who had came up with the slogan, "It takes a whole village to raise a child.".

Off topic, but I hate that quote. It does not take a whole village to raise a child -- it takes two strong parents. In fact, I don't want the "village" to have anything to do with raising my child. That's my job.

[showstoppa]

to think, I usually post in the News or Free Press' forums ! here there actually is some intelligent discussion. Now for my two cents !

a. race is a huge issue here, but I also tend to think it's also a power struggle between races. The reason I say this is because blacks from other parts of the country [[including Atlanta and New Orleans) think of Detroit as crazy, and simply beneath them !

b. The key to combat this I feel is a good education, and we all know how DPS is working on that one !

[Bearinabox]

I usually post in the News or Free Press' forums !

Dear God, why? I can't even read them without losing IQ points.

[stasu1213]

Agreed. Sorry for getting a little too sensitive... it's a stressful time in my life right now, and I'm venting my stress all over DYes.

Sorry for your stress. Especially trying to acheive your Phd. Tackle that which cause your stress. It doesnt change my stance on this topic. It was said that black leaders inherited Detroit and it's downfall left by fleeing whites and corporations. I say that blacks at times take charge of a sinking ship when nobody else want to stay on board. While the useless ship sank deeper and deeper in the ocean the black captain will say "I inherited this sinking ship". No you idiot you took over a sinking ship hoping that you could make it sail.

[showstoppa]

Sorry for your stress. Especially trying to acheive your Phd. Tackle that which cause your stress. It doesnt change my stance on this topic. It was said that black leaders inherited Detroit and it's downfall left by fleeing whites and corporations. I say that blacks at times take charge of a sinking ship when nobody else want to stay on board. While the useless ship sank deeper and deeper in the ocean the black captain will say "I inherited this sinking ship". No you idiot you took over a sinking ship hoping that you could make it sail.

it do take all hands on deck to rescue the sinking ship though !

[Scratch]

There is deterioration going on nationally, as well. This country has been in a depression comparable to the Great one for almost 10 years now, and while Detroit itself has been for more like 40+, I'm sure you're feeling this on top of that.

I've lived in Seattle a little over 4 years, and am amazed at how many places I've seen closing in such a short time. Established, beloved businesses are moving to cheaper locations, or shutting down completely. Nothing is replacing them in the vacated spaces, and the trend is accelerating. This is supposed to be a thriving boom-town, or was 5 years ago. I look at pictures on this site, then pass blocks of suddenly empty windows in my city, and get chills.

Maybe some of the reasons, at least for the recent decline initially asked about, are not unique to Detroit, and have more to do with the federal government than local prejudices.

[Retroit]

...Blacks should had held mass rallies and protests up Woodward denouncing the way the school system was being ranned. The poor services including EMS and Police that the BLACK leaders had provided you over the past 30 odd years.Water rates hikes. Crime in the neighborhood with Kwame Kilpatrick closing the police stations around the city...

Good point. Why is it unacceptable for blacks to be treated as "second class citizens" by whites, but when blacks are treated as "second class citizens" by blacks, they acquiesce?

If the mayor and council were all white, wouldn't black Detroiters be protesting their living conditions?

[Danny]

Good point. Why is it unacceptable for blacks to be treated as "second class citizens" by whites, but when blacks are treated as "second class citizens" by blacks, they acquiesce?

If the mayor and council were all white, wouldn't black Detroiters be protesting their living conditions?

Originally Posted by stasu1213
...Blacks should had held mass rallies and protests up Woodward denouncing the way the school system was being ranned. The poor services including EMS and Police that the BLACK leaders had provided you over the past 30 odd years.Water rates hikes. Crime in the neighborhood with Kwame Kilpatrick closing the police stations around the city...

Black Detroiters did along with some black leaders, but failed to strengthening their solidarity for social reform. First of all if they can't clean themselves up they can't clean up their ghettohoods.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

BLACK POWER is long gone, buried in the pit of Stokely Standiford Churchill Carmichael.

In Memoriam: Neda Soltani