race- maybe?

[R8RBOB]

OK, I'm going to call it like it is on this one: The above scenario is an example of unmerited overreaction on the black man's part, plain and simple. And to seriously tell someone that he may "never, never, never, never" use an innocent word like "boy" even in an innocent just because somebody might be offended is way out of line. THAT TOO will "get an angry response."

Overreaction!!! Are you kidding? I tell you what. If you have any friends who are Black men go to them and call them boy. I dare you. I double-dare you.

The response given represent someone who is so cornbread he has no idea of the meaning of calling a Black MAN, boy. Like I said, find a Black man and call him boy to his face.

[EMG]

Overreaction!!! Are you kidding? I tell you what. If you have any friends who are Black men go to them and call them boy. I dare you. I double-dare you.

The response given represent someone who is so cornbread he has no idea of the meaning of calling a Black MAN, boy. Like I said, find a Black man and call him boy to his face.

There is a difference between deliberately calling someone "boy" as a pejorative term and innocently using an expression with no malicious intent. And if someone is unable to discern the difference in a scenario as described above, then that someone is just plain STUPID, or he's grown up being taught anti-white racist nonsense.

The person in the above example was not "calling [[a black man) boy to his face," and I believe that the overwhelming majority of grown black men would realize that.

[Hermod]

There are a lot of expressions in the English language which use "boy" or other terms as attention getting prefixes tio a sentence.

Examples:

Hooo boy, it is hot today! [[no one is being called a boy)

Weeeelll doggie, would you look at that? [[no one is being called a dog)

Oh man, what a ride [[no one is being called a man)

[R8RBOB]

There is a difference between deliberately calling someone "boy" as a pejorative term and innocently using an expression with no malicious intent. And if someone is unable to discern the difference in a scenario as described above, then that someone is just plain STUPID, or he's grown up being taught anti-white racist nonsense.

The person in the above example was not "calling [[a black man) boy to his face," and I believe that the overwhelming majority of grown black men would realize that.

I know that. I'm not clueless, but some people are.
I believe the poster said what he said as a comment, nothing more, however, there are ignorant people in the mist and sometimes you have to be mindful of what you say because unlike you and I they just won't understand.

[English]

OK, I'm going to call it like it is on this one: The above scenario is a case of unmerited overreaction on that black man's part, plain and simple, and it demonstrates that "man's" emotional immaturity.

Plain and simple. I'm sure I've met that same man, all over Detroit, asking me to have his babies, or something even more obscene... especially when I was younger. When that kind of man received a well-deserved frosty response from me, I suddenly became all kinds of female dogs and garden tools.

I don't judge all men, or all people of a certain color, or even an entire city because of the ignorance of a certain kind of person. I can't refuse to walk the streets of Detroit because of them. If that were the case, no one would ever leave the house.

And before I get jumped on [[again -- it's a daily thing on DYes), I'm not minimizing what gnome went through. I don't think I've ever been called the n-word to my face by a white person. If I were in his shoes, surrounded by a lot of white men who were getting belligerent, I would be pretty shaken too. I don't think turnabout is fair play at all. It's too bad that gnome had to go through that, and I'm sorry that certain Detroiters whose ancestors faced that kind of intimidation 2 generations ago are so quick to go there.

[Det_ard]

Alright guys, I need a ruling here. Or at least reactions.

I was walking out of a store the other day during one our recent snow storms. I spotted a guy's jacket that looked warm and well-made. Leather with a hood, mid-length and it looked sharp. Fast forward to walking out of the store, the coat guy is on my right and I say, "Boy, that coat looks really warm."

Coat guy snaps around and says, "Who you calling boy, motherfucker?"

Me, "Whaat?" [[a far better response than "Who you calling motherfucker, boy?")

CG, "Boy, motherfucker, you deaf? who the fuck you calling boy, you cracker ass?!"

A new face enters from the left, "He ain't your boy!"

Me, "Whoa ho hey hold on here I just liked his coat." [["Whoa ho..."??? Call him a horse, then a whore? You're a gutsy one)

CG, "You fuckin trying to steal my coat? You broke ass motherfucker. This cracker here is trying to steal my coat!" To a now very disturbed group which have gathered behind me.

So, wise folks, this thing was a real down-the-rabbit-hole experience. Besides saying anything in the first place, my obvious failing here was using the word 'boy' as an exclamation of admiration, ... how would you have gotten out of the situation? [[CCW?)

So how did you get out of the situation?

[Crumbled_pavement]

I disagree with English, and I think race absolutely should be discussed. The difference is it needs to be discussed with honesty and insight and from people truly trying to close the divide. People of all racial background need to talk and be listened to. Far too often people are just complaining about their negative experiences while dismissing someone else's negative experiences. You seldom see a white person truly put themselves in the shoes of a black person and understand why they see the world the way they see it, and vice versa. When people truly talk to eachother and LISTEN then we find out that in the end we are all human with slightly different experiences. It would be great to hear people truly talk about how they feel about race and work together towards a day when it doesn't matter what color you are, but WHO you are. Many people would then understand the difference between someone talking down to them by calling them "boy" or just using a figure of speech. The walls will never be broken down as long as people on all sides just shrug their shoulders and assume it is "them" that have everything screwed up.

Both blacks and whites represent ignorance and intelligence. There's good and bad in everyone, and in every group of people. Let's start looking for the good in eachother instead of just looking for the bad and who we can blame to ease our own guilt or to build up our own ego.

[EMG]

I know that. I'm not clueless, but some people are.
I believe the poster said what he said as a comment, nothing more, however, there are ignorant people in the mist and sometimes you have to be mindful of what you say because unlike you and I they just won't understand.

I definitely won't argue with that.

[mwilbert]

When I address any adult to whom I haven't been introduced and to whom it may not be clear why I am speaking to them [[so, for instance, I don't always do this with a cashier), I always use "sir" or "ma'am". I have heard that some women don't like "ma'am", but I don't have a good alternative, and it hasn't gotten me into any trouble.

To use a cliche, you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and starting out from a position of respect seems appropriate. In any event, it has worked for me--I practically always find the people I deal with to be quite pleasant.

[English]

Crumbled_pavement, I'm not saying that race should never, ever be discussed. Part of my research deals with race. My point in previous posts is that all the focus on and talk about race for the past 40+ years has done absolutely nothing for the region.

I respect what you are saying. I'd be all for it if people on both sides were mature and had a problem-solving mentality. However, people on both sides are not necessarily mature enough to concede a point or acknowledge that their views might be incorrect, and often don't want to listen to the other point of view.

Also, because there's such a focus on race in this region, I think that by concentrating on other aspects of human identity and life, maybe we'd figure out how to create a better metro. There is so much focus on differences in Detroit. What about what we have in common? I feel that the former is always the focus, so much so until we absolutely forget that we are all human.

[bartock]

Alright guys, I need a ruling here. Or at least reactions.

I was walking out of a store the other day during one our recent snow storms. I spotted a guy's jacket that looked warm and well-made. Leather with a hood, mid-length and it looked sharp. Fast forward to walking out of the store, the coat guy is on my right and I say, "Boy, that coat looks really warm."

Coat guy snaps around and says, "Who you calling boy, motherfucker?"

Me, "Whaat?"

CG, "Boy, motherfucker, you deaf? who the fuck you calling boy, you cracker ass?!"

A new face enters from the left, "He ain't your boy!"

Me, "Whoa ho hey hold on here I just liked his coat."

CG, "You fuckin trying to steal my coat? You broke ass motherfucker. This cracker here is trying to steal my coat!" To a now very disturbed group which have gathered behind me.

So, wise folks, this thing was a real down-the-rabbit-hole experience. Besides saying anything in the first place, my obvious failing here was using the word 'boy' as an exclamation of admiration, ... how would you have gotten out of the situation?

I feel sorry for what happened, but I think you were just being messed with.

I don't know you, the size of these guys or exactly what the situation might have been because it sort of sounds like an early 1980s Saturday Night Live skit [[I'm not doubting that the discussion took place as you said, sounds like an awkward situation), but in the years I lived in Detroit the couple of times someone called me "Cracker" [[I only remember twice), I looked the person in the eye, laughed and blew it off. Only in a truly confusing situation should you have to apologize for a misunderstanding the way you described. Based on what you said and how it likely would have been said [[i.e., I doubt you said it like "[hey] Boy. That coat looks really warm."), you may have just been targeted for getting picked on.

Like any city [[big or small), in certain areas and/or in certain situations, one can run into a mob mentality where if you look like an outsider and are seen as perhaps "weak" or a little too wary of surroundings, the bullies come out to the playground and mess with you, so to speak. You ain't from around here, are you - type of stuff.

The mentality of certain types of people will not change. Anyone who is an adult playing the bully/mob mentality game, white or black or whatever, is not worth your time. I don't think it is so much of a symptom of a greater problem, just a minority element that will always be there wherever you go.

English - reading your posts on this thread and loving the point of view.

[LeannaM]

I don't think blacks running the government causes Detroit's problems. Cities have been run by white men for centuries and we've still had all kinds of disasters.

I think you do have to consider things like white flight when examining a city's current state, but white flight wasn't the fault of blacks. You also have to consider race riots and racial tension as potential causes of current problems in the city.

I think it's more about income than race. Sure, the city is majority black. It's also majority poor and sparsely populated in areas. That makes a difference. Less money from taxes [[as well as corrupt government) equals less money for schools, police, maintenance of infrastructure. This causes more people to leave which further shrinks tax income for the city. It's a cycle.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Crumbled_pavement, I'm not saying that race should never, ever be discussed. Part of my research deals with race. My point in previous posts is that all the focus on and talk about race for the past 40+ years has done absolutely nothing for the region.

I respect what you are saying. I'd be all for it if people on both sides were mature and had a problem-solving mentality. However, people on both sides are not necessarily mature enough to concede a point or acknowledge that their views might be incorrect, and often don't want to listen to the other point of view.

Also, because there's such a focus on race in this region, I think that by concentrating on other aspects of human identity and life, maybe we'd figure out how to create a better metro. There is so much focus on differences in Detroit. What about what we have in common? I feel that the former is always the focus, so much so until we absolutely forget that we are all human.

I think I get what you're saying. It's like a co-worker of mine who is a staunch conservative. He pretty much tows the party line on everything except abortion and gay marriage. I don't think he supports either, he just feels it's unproductive to fight against those things. In his eyes there are more important things to be concerned with and those are battles that just aren't winnable. I think you're saying something similar, constantly focusing on race is unproductive and not a winnable battle.

I also like that you are more focused on the future than the past. Much of the time when talk about race comes up most people are looking to assign blame not to understand. 50 years of assigning blame to everyone that looks or thinks different from one's self does nothing to advance the region. It would be different if people of all races were truly trying to understand one another as opposed to trying to figure out how every other race has ruined mankind. The biggest problem is as humans we inevitably see ourselves as persecuted angels. Funny, no one ever see themselves as a persecutor.

[JBMcB]

Well, today the need for blacks to become entrepreneurs is paramount. However, the most talented blacks tend to go into fields that aren't business related or go into the corporate world. That leaves those with the least education to start businesses, but because of their lack of higher education, many black businesses fail.

You don't need a college degree to be an entrepreneur. My dad never went to college, he started working at a store as a stock boy in high school. Twelve years later he was the head manager, saved up his money, and bought the place out from the owner.

Same deal with my neighbor. Started out driving delivery trucks, saved up and bought his own, kept saving and bought a few routes, then hired some other people who had their own trucks. Twenty years later he had a fairly successful delivery business.

I think the key skill is being frugal with money. Unless you can constantly save up for the capital outlay required to start a business, you'll never get there.

[Hermod]

You don't need a college degree to be an entrepreneur. My dad never went to college, he started working at a store as a stock boy in high school. Twelve years later he was the head manager, saved up his money, and bought the place out from the owner.

Same deal with my neighbor. Started out driving delivery trucks, saved up and bought his own, kept saving and bought a few routes, then hired some other people who had their own trucks. Twenty years later he had a fairly successful delivery business.

I think the key skill is being frugal with money. Unless you can constantly save up for the capital outlay required to start a business, you'll never get there.

My father and my uncle slept in the attic and my aunt in a large closet so that my grandparents could have four roomers paying rent in the two spare bedrooms. My grandparents saved up enough so that my grandfather could start his own business [[in 1929).

[dookie joe]

I don't think blacks running the government causes Detroit's problems. Cities have been run by white men for centuries and we've still had all kinds of disasters.

I think you do have to consider things like white flight when examining a city's current state, but white flight wasn't the fault of blacks. You also have to consider race riots and racial tension as potential causes of current problems in the city.

I think it's more about income than race. Sure, the city is majority black. It's also majority poor and sparsely populated in areas. That makes a difference. Less money from taxes [[as well as corrupt government) equals less money for schools, police, maintenance of infrastructure. This causes more people to leave which further shrinks tax income for the city. It's a cycle.

Nice post. I agree with everything you say. But I would add that many of the crooked black politicians use the race issue as a way of diverting attention from their own misdeeds -- and even the unscruplous black politicians who might not be out-and-out crooked also will use race to curry favor with the voters. And this sort of things hampers the city in many ways.

But that in and of itself isn't the "cause" of Detroit's problems. If this were a mostly-white city run by crooks and other unscrupulous types, then those white politicians would most certainly also use race as a diversionary tactic. L. Brooks Patterson and Orville Hubbard are two examples of this.

So it's the crooks who are hampering the city. Their skin color doesn't matter. Most of the crooks in Detroit happen to be black, that's all.

A crook is a crook is a crook.

[dookie joe]

Yes how well we know all poor people are criminals and all wealthy people are saints.

I can't speak for Leanna, but I don't think that's what she was implying. Poor communities have all sorts of problems, including crime -- whether it's a poor mostly-black city, or a mostly-white rural community.

One of the biggest problems with poor communities as it relates to crime is that there isn't enough money for police to do their jobs. Add to that a bunch of theives stealing from the public dole, and you've got a problem.

Anyone with any sense knows that honesty isn't something you can buy.

[FerndaleDamon]

Like I said , way back in the beginning of the thread- my family didn't have much money- yet we were able to maintain a nice house/yard. I think values are different today, I guess?

[stasu1213]

Wow. Sociologists and urban planners have been wrestling with what happened to Detroit and why for more than 40 years, and here you've solved it all before bedtime!

It doesn't take much to tell about the poor judgement that Detroiters had chosen for their leaders over the past 40 yrs Don't you think?

[stasu1213]

It was told on a black talk radio show that White businessmen wanted to open business in Detroit but the Mayor Kilpatrick had told these businessmen that Bernard Kilpatrick has to be included in the contract deals or something like that. The businessmen would have to bring Killer Kilpatrick cash money if they want to play in the game of opening business in Detroit. English, blame the BLACK MAYOR for helping in the deterioration of Detroit. Had an outstanding person like Maynard Jackson of Atlanta was had become mayor of Detroit instead of Coleman in 1973 the city probably would had been going in a more positive direction.

[English]

Stasu1213, we all know that the majority of the politicians and residents of Detroit have been black for more than 30 years. Everyone from internationally famous scholars to armchair pundits have pointed out Detroit's toxic race relations for many years.

The long-gone OP entitled the thread "Race--maybe?" as if it were some great revelation that Detroit had divisive race relations, instead of a cliche. Detroit's racial divisions are most stark among people over 35. In my age bracket, it's much less of an issue, and with the suburbs becoming more and more diverse, things are changing.

Here's something for you to consider: is it Young and Kilpatrick's blackness that made them ineffective? Does being black make a person inherently ineffective and in Kwame's case, or of low moral character? Are black people are inherently unfit to be charged with the duties of citizenship and leadership?

Is it our race, or is it something else? Is it genetic, or is it environmental? Nature, or is it nurture?

My point is that people in this region often use "race" as the lens to discuss everything when it's not really accurate. People who actually have read into these things have rendered the issue far more complex than where one's ancestors came from.

Race is a factor, but it's not the only factor that speaks to why Detroit is the way that it is today. I would argue that it's too bad many of those other factors are underexamined, because while no one here can wave a magic wand and make me and hundreds of thousands of other native Detroiters white, there are a lot of issues in Detroit that one CAN actually do something about. Why not concentrate on those?

[Bearinabox]

In my age bracket, it's much less of an issue, and with the suburbs becoming more and more diverse, things are changing.

Do you think the suburbs are becoming more diverse because middle-class white people are more willing to live around blacks than they used to be, or just because they ran out of city neighborhoods to flee from and are now fleeing from places like Southfield and Harper Woods?

[R8RBOB]

Do you think the suburbs are becoming more diverse because middle-class white people are more willing to live around blacks than they used to be, or just because they ran out of city neighborhoods to flee from and are now fleeing from places like Southfield and Harper Woods?

Ouch!!!! That stings but I have to agree with Bear English. I have traveled throughout the three countries and I have to say that White people didn't move to places like Chesterfield Township or Washington Township because the soil was fertile and milk and honey was flowing. Diversity will not happen for this region until we get new residents [[read: out-of-state) to settle and that is not going to happen anytime soon.

[Det_ard]

Here's something for you to consider: is it Young and Kilpatrick's blackness that made them ineffective? Does being black make a person inherently ineffective and in Kwame's case, or of low moral character? Are black people are inherently unfit to be charged with the duties of citizenship and leadership?

Is it our race, or is it something else? Is it genetic, or is it environmental? Nature, or is it nurture?

It's not the amount of melanin that make someone a good or bad leader. To think that is truly racist.

Of more concern than whether a leader is black or white or hispanic or other, is an aspect of human nature that leads members of a group to support other members of that group even if that support isn't really warranted. This "circle the wagons" mentality seems stronger in minority groups that have historically been in a more fragile place in society. So we see some otherwise intelligent people sticking by Kilpatrick's side long after it was objectively apparent that he was bad news.

While no racial group has a predilection to poor political performance, a minority pol will receive higher support from their minority group than otherwise justified, and that enables them to stick around longer since he's "our guy" and "they" are out to get him.

[English]

Do you think the suburbs are becoming more diverse because middle-class white people are more willing to live around blacks than they used to be, or just because they ran out of city neighborhoods to flee from and are now fleeing from places like Southfield and Harper Woods?

Good question. I don't know how far "white people" are willing to flee because white people are as diverse a group as any other kind of people. I think that some white people who don't want to live in diverse urban and suburban areas nationwide are heading to places where there are no people of color... yet. That is definitely their right.

But others don't care, will live next door to anyone who's a good neighbor, and are welcoming POC into their families. So it's just really hard to say. I think it depends on the individual people involved.